Religious friend dying

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

That's fair enough but nothing to do with the OP's question, or Mark Hammill's response.

Why not? I think JW beliefs in the afterlife are ridiculous, and if I was a friend with one (if they where allowed to be friends with an athiest) I would call those beliefs ridiculous till I was blue in the face if it meant they took a life saving blood transfusion. Wouldn't you do everything in your power to save a friend?

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

So there are occasions when you would tell a dying friend that their beliefs were ridiculous?

Why on earth would you do that?

Thought of something else.
Lets say you were working in Africa and you had a native African friend and lets say this friend had AIDS. Now lets say that this friend, well he was very sad about this. He knew he was going to die and that he did not have much time left and nothing you could do could lift his spirits. Now lets say he gets it into his head that if had sex with a virgin he will lose the AIDS and live amd that this thought has given him a new lease on live, what with him trying to find a virgin to have sex with so as to cure himself. Now, would you support him in this endeavor, this endeavor which gives him so much happiness and hope, the possibility (in his eyes) that he could live, knowing full well its complete BS and that will almost definitely end up with him giving some poor girl AIDS?
Reality doesnt change to make people happy, no matter how depressing that reality may be.

rugbyman

Whew, Mark.
Those analogies of yours are fairly deep.!

on another note, if humour is allowed in here, If he were to instantly convert to Mahomedianism ( as it was called when i was at school).

then the one he was looking for would be one of 72, as soon as he departed to the other side

Regards, rugbyman

Sorry,just realised, not if he just dies, he has to be a Martyr.

Ickle Magoo

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

I don't tell my friends how ridiculous their beliefs are, full stop.

I have lost friends and family to long term illness and I can support whatever they believe without having to believe myself. When someone knows they are dying, they don't want preached at or a debate on the principles that formed their decisions in life, they want love and comfort.

Specific religious issues can be side-stepped; I can hope people don't suffer, I can hope all they wish is true is true for them, I can think of them rather than pray for them, etc. There is no huge contradiction that I have a burning desire to highlight to their face. I can try and carry out the persons wishes to the best of my ability because my love for them is far greater than my need to be evangelical about atheism.

I hope my friends and relations know that I love them and know I don't want them to die. What I think happens after they die and what their beliefs were while they lived don't come into it at that stage.

Xluna

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

No. How would that be of benefit to him?Anyone who did that would have to be some sadistic MFer.

Kooli

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why not? I think JW beliefs in the afterlife are ridiculous, and if I was a friend with one (if they where allowed to be friends with an athiest) I would call those beliefs ridiculous till I was blue in the face if it meant they took a life saving blood transfusion. Wouldn't you do everything in your power to save a friend?

I just meant that it wasn't in the OP's question - that was about someone about to die from cancer, who believed in the afterlife. Nothing to do with transfusions, JWs, AIDS, sex with virgins, anything like that. In the circumstances in the OP's question, I think it would be difficult to justify telling a dying friend that their belief in the afterlife is ridiculous. That's all.

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

I just meant that it wasn't in the OP's question - that was about someone about to die from cancer, who believed in the afterlife. Nothing to do with transfusions, JWs, AIDS, sex with virgins, anything like that. In the circumstances in the OP's question, I think it would be difficult to justify telling a dying friend that their belief in the afterlife is ridiculous. That's all.

I didn't realise that the OP had specifically said terminal cancer, so you're right in that the AIDs and JW examples may not exactly apply.
However, what I would say to a friend dying form cancer would still depend on why we came into a conversation about their beliefs. I would not bring up my opinions on their beliefs, as, if they where my friend, they would know them, and bringing them up again would benefit no-one. So the only situation where I would discuss my beliefs is if they brought it up and tried to press me into converting or something (and I know a person or two would I could well belive would do that).

Like I already said: Thats the problem with this sort of thought experiment (created, I'd imagine, so as to give ammunition for those who want to call atheists heartless), real life doesn't quite fit in thought experiments, so I dont fully commit to any position cause I dont know what real life will throw at me.

Genghiz Cohen

A Theist watching an Atheist or Theist of different faith dying believes they are going to Hell and as such may feel compelled to do what they think is the right thing and try to convert them.
Atheist don't worry about what happens after death, what the dying person believes is irrelevant.

Dades

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

A Theist watching an Atheist or Theist of different faith dying believes they are going to Hell and as such may feel compelled to do what they think is the right thing and try to convert them.
Atheist don't worry about what happens after death, what the dying person believes is irrelevant.

That's a good point. Though the percentage of "Christians" who believe enough in a Hell to try and deathbed convert someone are fairly small I'd say.

bnt

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't tell my friends how ridiculous their beliefs are, full stop.

There was a time when I would have said the same thing - but now I have religious friends who know what I think of religion. The topic inevitably comes up, when I get invited to church. Yet, we're still friends, and my friends would rather I was true to myself, and to them, than lie to them.

That doesn't mean I have to be harsh about it: sticking to your honest opinions in a kind manner is a form of diplomacy, you might say. But, what kind of friend would I be if I flip-flopped on such an important issue, in a misplaced attempt to make someone feel a little better?

You can see this question pop up in other threads too: Births, Weddings, and Deaths, the "big three" occasions when atheists get asked to stop being atheists and make the right noises, because it's the "done thing". However - simply because those are important life events - I strongly feel that those are the times to be honest to yourself and your friends. Just be nice about it!

Ickle Magoo

bnt wrote: »

There was a time when I would have said the same thing - but now I have religious friends who know what I think of religion.

There hasn't been a time that my friends and family didn't know what I felt about religion and yet I have never felt the need to call anyones beliefs ridiculous. As I said in my post, I don't find it too difficult to support someone who is dying in their beliefs, without altering my own.

I don't know how many terminally ill people you have spoken to about their faith and been nicely honest with?

Goduznt Xzst

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

I find it curious that people even entertained this question.

First it is a blatant Appeal to emotion, and bears no logical consideration.

Second, it is a loaded question.

If you answer yes: You are arrogant and tactless
If you answer no: You are deceitful and a liar

Yes I am an Atheist, and no I don't lie less than a Christian because of it. I lie just as much as Christians.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wouldn't you do everything in your power to save a friend?

I could well imagine quite a number of things you would not be prepared to do to save yourself, let alone a friend.

You are getting into the subjective area of equating what you find to be menial and important as somehow Universal. When dealing with JW's, you have to rationalize, if you where given the option of extending your life now for a few decades, or ending your life now and gaining an eternity of existence, which would you choose? For a devout JW the choice is simple.

Turtwig

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Second, it is a loaded question.


If you answer yes: You are arrogant and tactless
If you answer no: You are deceitful and a liar

Ahh I get it, kinda like:

Do you still beat your wife regularly?

Mark Hamill

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You are getting into the subjective area of equating what you find to be menial and important as somehow Universal. When dealing with JW's, you have to rationalize, if you where given the option of extending your life now for a few decades, or ending your life now and gaining an eternity of existence, which would you choose? For a devout JW the choice is simple.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. You have explained why a JW would not take a life saving blood transfusion, but this would not change how I feel about and I would still argue against it if it would save their life.

Goduznt Xzst

Malty_T wrote: »

Ahh I get it, kinda like:

Do you still beat your wife regularly?

I know you are confusing something here, but I'm not really sure what. That question is in no way similar.

The question the OP asked was "Are you cruelly honest or tactfully deceitful?" There are negative connotations to either answer, which anyone willing to answer the question could be tarred with. It is also emotionally charged

Edit: Ah read it before you added the word "still" to it. Yes, that does change the context.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

but this would not change how I feel about and I would still argue against it if it would save their life.

Well I was trying to reason on the futility of trying to get a JW to go against their religion on their chosen deathbed, what you have to offer them is nothing compared to what they believe they will receive by staying faithful. Really any footwork your conscience requires you to do should of been done before they needed a blood transfusion.

Just also know that you'd be no different than Christians who try to muscle in on peoples deaths by actively praying for them at their bedside so that they don't end up in hell.

Antbert

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I know you are confusing something here, but I'm not really sure what. That question is in no way similar.

It's a loaded question. If you ask 'do you still beat your wife regularly?' there's no good answer. Yes is obviously bad, no means you NO LONGER beat your wife regularly.

Edit: You explained it yourself. Never mind.

Mark Hamill

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well I was trying to reason on the futility of trying to get a JW to go against their religion on their chosen deathbed, what you have to offer them is nothing compared to what they believe they will receive by staying faithful.

It may be fruitful to try to convince them, but if they are my friend and I did believe that their beliefs where ridiculous and going to kill them then why wouldn't try to argue against them? It may not work, but I would still try.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Really any footwork your conscience requires you to do should of been done before they needed a blood transfusion.

I dont know about you, but my conscience would not be sated by me just accepting that I had theological debates with a JW when they where well, so know that they are sick I dont need to care.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Just also know that you'd be no different than Christians who try to muscle in on peoples deaths by actively praying for them at their bedside so that they don't end up in hell.

Except that I would be trying to muscle in on the JWs life by trying to keep them alive.

indough

i would tell them whatever i thought they wanted to hear

what is going to be gained by convincing them theres nothing after death, just before they die?

rohatch

The JW issue is seperate. When a JW refuses blood its because of stupidity.

My gay uncle died of aids, would jackass's god have wanted him?