Nationalism and the Irish Language

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The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sorry, I meant revive rather than preserve - the latter would apply only if revival is no longer feasible. Presently I see the current situation as neither, but more akin to a repeated quickening.

Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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Closer to, not exactly the same as.

It's similar in standard to English, the exams mirror each other quite similarly. The question, "why should a language that has only been taught and spoken in schools be examined analogously to one's mother tongue, which is constantly used?" arises.

There has to be a balance. The standard should be higher than French and lower than English.

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's true of every LC subject, sadly.

It is possible to get value out of the LC courses, but it's so, so easy to take the cynical approach, and with the pressure surrounding the points race, the majority of students learn how to do exams in certain subjects, not the subjects themselves. And many teachers fully endorse and teach this.

Valmont

I think the policy makers would do well to read this thread!

Grudaire

The 20 year plan draft is available here: http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeilge/

Perhaps you should take the idea's to them instead of assuming that Irish language policy makers will be trawling the humanities forum for inspiration :rolleyes:

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Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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Oooops, I actually meant to check that when boards.ie went down

Sorry...

Anyway there are a lot of strong opinions on the thread, and there's no harm in letting the people who can do something to change it know!

Valmont

Cliste wrote: »

Perhaps you should take the idea's to them instead of assuming that Irish language policy makers will be trawling the humanities forum for inspiration :rolleyes:

I was merely remarking on the quality of discussion in this thread. I don't for one second actually think that the Department of Community, Rural, and Gaeltacht affairs would take on board any of the more rational proposals mentioned over the course of this discussion.

Grudaire

Valmont wrote: »

I was merely remarking on the quality of discussion in this thread. I don't for one second actually think that the Department of Community, Rural, and Gaeltacht affairs would take on board any of the more rational proposals mentioned over the course of this discussion.

I guess the below has changed then?:

Sorry I don't have really have my own opinion to contribute but I am still trying to figure out where I stand on the issue.

The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

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The draft document on that page is a pretty depressing example of a strategy document cobbled together by a committee, completely bereft of anything new.

I better make a confession at this stage - I used to be a member of Fianna Fail in my student days. I know, I know.

Anyhow, we were once given an audience with Mary O'Rourke when she was minister of Education and someone raised the issue of the decline of the Irish language and how the manner in which it was being forced upon students, not to mention taught, was actually counter productive to the language.

She shot him down with the argument that "we're all members of Fianna Fail and as such support the language's promotion". End of discussion. There was no debate on whether the promotion as it was being carried out was detrimental or not.

Genuinely, while letting the powers that be know our thoughts on this is a good idea in theory, I'm not certain if it will actually make any difference. It's not simply Fianna Fail that behaves this way, I believe all of the political parties treat the issue as the elephant in the middle of the room that no one wants to acknowledge and that the portion of the civil service that is directly responsible for the language most of all wants to retain this status quo. There appears to be an entire industry of grants and tax breaks and jobs for the boys that no one wants to upset, even if it ultimately kills the language.

Pretty depressing.

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Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think this comment kinda indicates your view of the level of Irish that actually exists in Irish society is a large underestimation.

Also, your comment seems to indicate that you don't think second level Gaelscoileanna exist (??)

In my all Irish secondary school, in Dublin, I did honours Chemistry and Maths, and both my teachers had good Irish. In fact, all my teachers could speak Irish well, besides a few student teachers when I was in first year, and even then, they picked it up and attained reasonable fluency within a few months.

So who will teach, or rather, who currently does teach second level subjects through Irish?
- Teachers who went to Gaelscoileanna themselves, often past pupils of the school they teach at.
- Teachers who, believe it or not, happen to have good Irish despite attending English speaking secondary schools. A lot of people come out of school with the potential to gain fluency rapidly were they to actually speak it from day to day, but don't have any reason to. 2 months teaching in an Irish speaking school and a teacher will be fluent in spoken Irish.
- Native speakers.

donegalfella wrote:

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I don't know what you mean by this...

Do you mean there doesn't exist the vocabulary in Irish to teach these subjects? If so, then I assure you, there does.

A friend of mine is currently doing a Business course through Irish in DCU. (http://www.dcu.ie/fiontar/index_en.shtml)


Also, as an aside, it seems NUI is going to be scrapped, which indicates Irish may no longer be effectively compulsory at second level. I think students will still be obliged to attend Irish classes, but not have any reason to need to do well in the exam, and this could possibly be a stepping stone to making the subject completely voluntary.
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/scrapping-nui--will-hurt-the-irish-language--okeeffe-told-2024478.html

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Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well, as I said above, I think enough people come out of secondary school with the potential to gain fluency in Irish were they to speak it on a daily basis.

If there's a demand for teachers who can speak Irish, I don't think that's going to be a major deterrent

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well, there's a difference between the English/Irish hybrid you hear some people using when they are beginning to attain fluency, and the existence of terms for specialised subjects.

Some modern, scientific words are Gaelicized versions of their English counterparts, but English being the lingua franca, you will see the same in French or German.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Huh? It's not a course in conducting business through Irish, it's a business course which is taught through Irish.

I don't really know what your point is here.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I dunno. There's a lot of ignorance and misinformation surrounding university matriculation requirements. For years, students wishing to attend TCD or UL, or any college outside the handful under the NUI umbrella, have not strictly had to sit, let alone pass, any Irish exam, and yet, you don't really see many not doing so. Similarly, you don't need to pass maths to get into many courses which don't require it, and yet those who struggle immensly with it still persevere and sit the exam anyway. A lot of people seem to think you "fail your Leaving" if you don't pass English, Maths or Irish, which is completely untrue.

I imagine that most people will not immediately make the connection between the folding of NUI and the probable elimination of the Irish requirement for these universities.

Grudaire

Tbh Donegalfella, tl;dr

But I think ya're overly harsh on the 'right' to use Irish, I think that if the language has any proper hope to take in a big way, there must be a facilitation of Irish by State run services. Why teach Irish at all if you're going to force the use of english when it comes to dealing with the state (which it is necessary to do)

donegalfella wrote: »

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TG4 are by far the best Irish Chanel. Not only do they run more (+better) documentaries, and Sport than RTÉ, they do run great drama etc through Irish.

I think that it's acceptable to run some English language programs (http://tg4.ie/leir/luch.asp <- none of the shows you mention in the list , yes plenty of English, but we wouldn't want to waste all your money on commissioning shows as Gaeilge )

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Valmont

Cliste wrote: »

I guess the below has changed then?:

Considering that this thread has moved away considerably from my original post, nothing has changed at all. Regarding the irrational government policies concerning the Irish language; I understand them perfectly. Any more petulance to throw at me?

Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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I should first point out that Michael Ring is to be seen on record saying that the Údarás should not be removed, and that creating jobs in the Gaeltacht is of vital importance (which translated to me as: give my constituents jobs, considering he gave the entire oration through English!)

Firstly citation needed for the "nobody" bit of that link (I doubt half the anti State sponsored Irish side's argument wouldn't even be accepted by wikipedia :P)

I'm not supporting translating all documents, I think however if a demand does exist it should be translated. I would like to add that step one in saving money should be cutting out documents that nobody read in the first place. If they're not read in Irish, chances are few if any read them in English.

It's the simple stuff, if I want to get married (for instance) I go to this website: http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm (which is totally through English), and then there is no 'obligation' for the Registrar to do the wedding through Irish (This comes from someone I know who works in the Registrar's office). Is that fair?

donegalfella wrote: »

I see that Pimp My Ride has now been replaced in the TG4 schedule by My Super Sweet 16; sorry.

And I might add that you're barking up the wrong tree for good as Béarla programs on TG4, 8 Simple Rules, and True Blood are where it's at!

Grudaire

Valmont wrote: »

Considering that this thread has moved away considerably from my original post, nothing has changed at all. Regarding the irrational government policies concerning the Irish language; I understand them perfectly. Any more petulance to throw at me?

I do believe that you have a slight bias, despite the neutral OP

This thread was bound to be derailed, by militant Gaelgeoirs, and militant anti Gaelgeoirs. In fact I would go as far as to say that some of your posts derailed the thread ("spending lots of public funds on Irish", and "Why is Irish taught compulsorily? Is there an officially stated purpose for the entire endeavor?" are little better than red rags...)

You have stuck at the fringes of this thread, occasionally dipping in with stuff like:

Valmont wrote: »

These days, I don't think Mr. and Mrs. Murphy are either.

As they say as gaeilge: Athníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile (ie takes one to know one ;P )

Valmont

Cliste wrote: »

In fact I would go as far as to say that some of your posts derailed the thread ("spending lots of public funds on Irish", and "Why is Irish taught compulsorily? Is there an officially stated purpose for the entire endeavor?" are little better than red rags...)

Heaven forbid anyone should actually wonder why the government spends so much money on a dying language.

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Ashlinggnilsia

I think that Irish should be taught in schools and that it should be compulsory but that the only way it should matter in regards to leaving cert is if the person is thinking about keeping it up in college or something, I think maybe people should have to do it up until 6th year but not in 6th year unless they want to because at the end of the day, language is totally different to maths, or the english we learn in school some people just can't grasp different languages and If they failed it in the leaving cert that then effects their college choices even if they won't even be doing a course that has anything to do with irish, but I do think it is important to learn Irish, but Not such a need to stress people out about it, its not like maths you, you can't just figure out how to do a sum and then be able to do it from that point on. But I think if I could change secondary school I would to being from 1st to 5th year the normal stuff and then maybe exams after that but 6th year being spent going into a variety of different courses so that students can pick what they like straight away and get a feel for it instead of picking a course and going on it and realizing you hate it, this might still happen of course but most people don't have a clue what they want to do in college and there could be things they would actually love but not realise it.

Irlandese

Going back to the start,
Nationalism needs the language, as a crutch, but the language certainly does not need nationalism.
I would like to see my national language freed of the stain of blood thirsty nationalists, freed from being compulsory, (with paedofilially-tainted images of christian brothers and assorted priests beating the hell out of students who didn't like it as much as some of us) and freed of being highjacked by the backward, small-minded people rightly decried by Beckett and Joyce.

Mike 1972

#15 wrote: »

There is also the 'foreign' factor. I know a few who send their kids to Gaelscoileanna because there is a smaller chance of their little darlings being in a class with foreigners.

There are all sorts of other reasons (other than enthusiasm for Irish) why parents might send their kids to a Gaelscoil.

In many towns if one doesnt want to send their kids to a church run and/or gender segregated school then Gaelscoils may be the only option left.

citizen.v

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

I think maybe people should have to do it up until 6th year but not in 6th year unless they want to

I think it should only be compulsory up to Junior Cert, if even that far. For Leaving Cert, if you're linguistically orientated, the only subject you might have difficulty with is maths. If, like me, you're good at maths/music/art but not languages, you're stuck having to do Irish/English/other European language, and for what? Some misguided sense of Irish and European nationalism...

Getting someone's English to as high a standard as possible is useful, but spending thirteen years teaching Irish to people who are only going to hang on to a few tourist phrases is a huge waste of resources and unpatriotic IMO.

looksee

All of my children learned Irish all through school, and now none of them use it. The method of teaching it in secondary school seemed to me to be quite ridiculous. (I am not Irish speaking, and only as Irish as living here 40 years will allow me to be, which is not very). How can learning off long passages of Irish literature be considered 'speaking the language'?

I also think it is unfair to children who are in any way educationally challenged to have to contend with Irish as a second language, when they cannot cope with a first language.

Would it not be better to immerse children at primary level in simple, conversational Irish, with a good deal of emphasis on culture, music and history. Thereafter allow it to be optional, so that children who have gained an affection for the language will take it on further with enthusiasm; those who do not have the interest, ability or linguistic skills would lose nothing as they would not have learned it successfully anyway, and indeed would probably actively dislike it.

Students who have no enthusiasm for art or music or physics are not required to study these subjects beyond the basics required for a rounded education, why insist on extended study of a language they have no interest in?

As various people have said, how can you decide how Irish a person is by his interests? Do you have to speak Irish AND play hurling AND play a tin whistle AND have red hair? Or are there other criteria?

T runner

looksee wrote: »

All of my children learned Irish all through school, and now none of them use it. The method of teaching it in secondary school seemed to me to be quite ridiculous.

Yes, the method of teaching Irish needs to be reviewed.

I also think it is unfair to children who are in any way educationally challenged to have to contend with Irish as a second language, when they cannot cope with a first language.

Exceptions should be made in the subjects that intellectually challenged people are taught.

Would it not be better to immerse children at primary level in simple, conversational Irish, with a good deal of emphasis on culture, music and history. Thereafter allow it to be optional, so that children who have gained an affection for the language will take it on further with enthusiasm; those who do not have the interest, ability or linguistic skills would lose nothing as they would not have learned it successfully anyway, and indeed would probably actively dislike it.

I think the style of teching needs to change so that less children dislike it.
It is clear that the State wishes to see more people speaking one of the official languages of the country and to achieve this it needs to be taught in secondary school.

Students who have no enthusiasm for art or music or physics are not required to study these subjects beyond the basics required for a rounded education, why insist on extended study of a language they have no interest in?

Many children have little interest in learning English either.
Irish is all around us here as a spoken language, in placenames, family names.
There is even Presbytarian sermons in Northern ireland spoken through Irish.
The gaelscoils have enormous amounts of children.

As various people have said, how can you decide how Irish a person is by his interests? Do you have to speak Irish AND play hurling AND play a tin whistle AND have red hair? Or are there other criteria?

Ofcourse not. You are irish if you come from anywhere in Ireland or if you feel that by living here long enough you feel the Island is home.

(I am not Irish speaking, and only as Irish as living here 40 years will allow me to be, which is not very).

I would have thought that living in a country for the greater part of your life with make you more Irish than "not very" ? Perhaps you actually use the Irish speaking, hurley playing, red haired conditions to determine your Irishness that you seem to accuse others of?

The majority of Irish speakers in Ireland would hail from an identical culture than their English speaking compatriots BTW they would just be fluent in 2 languages.

shayno90

Valmont wrote: »

Heaven forbid anyone should actually wonder why the government spends so much money on a dying language.

Would you rather the the money being put into NAMA for bailing out the banks? Funding a "dying language" as you put it is much more viable than bailing out haemorrhaging banks who require billions to operate upon bad loans. It is a meagre amount of money in comparison to provide funding to a language which is a part of Ireland's heritage to some poster's detest . If you are so concerned about public spending on the Irish language then you should be out protesting in front of Dail Eireann nevermind questioning or protesting the bank bailout. Get your priorities straight, instead of nit picking and neglecting the major issues.

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looksee

T runner wrote: »

I would have thought that living in a country for the greater part of your life with make you more Irish than "not very" ?

Well yes, so would I, but I was talking about how Irish I am 'allowed' to be.

Cuddlytroll

Irlandese wrote: »

Going back to the start,
Nationalism needs the language, as a crutch, but the language certainly does not need nationalism.
I would like to see my national language freed of the stain of blood thirsty nationalists, freed from being compulsory, (with paedofilially-tainted images of christian brothers and assorted priests beating the hell out of students who didn't like it as much as some of us) and freed of being highjacked by the backward, small-minded people rightly decried by Beckett and Joyce.

I would fully agree with this post. I have a love for the language even if I don't use it as much as I should. Having said that I do believe strongly in the rights of the individual and it doesn't sit well with me that so many people who hate the language are forced to learn it.

Irish clearly hasn't benefited from the arrangement either, as there is a myopic, bureaucratic and hugely stifling approach to the teaching. Maybe by making it optional the syllabus would have to be revived to become more attractive to children and parents, so that it can celebrate the spoken language and the rich heritage rather than just satisfy some senile conservatives clinging onto an outdated approach.

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RepublicanEagle

Despite what people claim,Irish is our real language,the present situation regarding our confused perception of nationalism and disdain for our true language is a by-product of centuries of oppression which led to Irish being nearly wiped out (Daniel O Connell is also responsible for that),then revived under an Cumann Luthchleas Gael in the 19th century.

Unfortunately the revival in our language and culture was crippled following the Civil War,mass immigration,De Valera and his government's (FF)policy of its method of teaching (don't get me started on the Church),which still focuses on obscene amounts of mundane poetry and grammar.

If there was more emphasis now regarding how Irish should be taught in our schools that students will like and appreciate but also inspire them to keep our language and heritage alive,the focus should mostly remain with oral,mythology and old history (some modern,ending with the civil war,as Irish history after that is boring drivel except for the Troubles,as it is an important yet tragic part of Irish history).The sooner this happens the better it is is for our country and true language.

Regarding our literature,every country has its national epic.Italy has the Aeneid/Divine Comedy,France has Les Miserable,Greece has The Illiad, etc.However we are lacking in that senese,but our mythology is the most fascinating and amongst the richest in the world,we can surely find a national epic in our myth that does not involve the agony that is James Joyce and Samuel Beckett.

For you naysayers that say Irish will never be our primary spoken and written language again.Remember,Hebrew was more or less an extinct language that very few spoke until the establishment of the Israel state in 1948,the people and the government had the will,dedication and sense of pride in their heritage and identity to revive their lost language to its former "glory" (if you don't mind the phrase).

The naysayers of this country,along with the government and its resources,instead of saying how useless our language is,whats the point in having it, etc.Should follow these people's example in how they brought their language,heritage and identity back to life,against all the odds.

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Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit |Lucretius

nothing may come from nothing

thebman

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Despite what people claim,Irish is our real language,the present situation regarding our confused perception of nationalism and disdain for our true language is a by-product of centuries of oppression which led to Irish being nearly wiped out (Daniel O Connell is also responsible for that),then revived under an Cumann Luthchleas Gael in the 19th century.

Unfortunately the revival in our language and culture was crippled following the Civil War,mass immigration,De Valera and his government's (FF)policy of its method of teaching (don't get me started on the Church),which still focuses on obscene amounts of mundane poetry and grammar.

No offense intended but thats nonsense.

Irish people realise the prospects of learning different languages and using logic have determined that Irish has nothing to offer them over a language more widely spoken.

Sure some people make go against this trend but they are an exception.

Most people just don't give a crap and would rather learn French/Spanish/German/Italian.

RepublicanEagle

thebman wrote: »

No offense intended but thats nonsense.

Irish people realise the prospects of learning different languages and using logic have determined that Irish has nothing to offer them over a language more widely spoken.

Sure some people make go against this trend but they are an exception.

Most people just don't give a crap and would rather learn French/Spanish/German/Italian.

You might as well tell the other smaller nations with minority languages,to give up their language and heritage as well,seeing as its "nonsense".Anyone who would consider themselves nationalists, let alone Irish,are not nationalists,should they think our language and heritage are nonsense.Either that,or they have no clue about what it means to be a nationalist,most "nationalists" have the delusion that if they have modern republican sympathies and support republicanism,that automatically qualifies them as nationalists,where in fact,it does not.Which is the reason why we have the likes of Sinn Fein amongst other republican groups.

( By the way, did you stop reading at the second paragraph or did you read the whole post,as the remainder is something Irish people on this board should see and reflect upon.Judging by your blunt and uncompromising manner in which you dismissed what I said, my guess is that you did not. )

thebman

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

You might as well tell the other smaller nations with minority languages,to give up their language and heritage as well,seeing as its "nonsense".Anyone who would consider themselves nationalists, let alone Irish,are not nationalists,should they think our language and heritage are nonsense.Either that,or they have no clue about what it means to be nationalists,most "nationalists" have the delusion that if they have modern republican sympathies and support republicanism,that automatically qualifies them as nationalists,where in fact,it does not.Which is the reason why we have the likes of Sinn Fein amongst other republican groups.

Not really. I would never try to dictate to other countries. I'm Irish and I have a say in what goes on in this country and our heritage isn't nonsense but you know what, its called cultural evolution. Things move on and we speak English now and it doesn't make one any less Irish to do so or to want to keep it that way because it offers more economic options to Ireland to have a nation of English speakers and money will build a stronger, more developed Ireland and give us the money to protect real heritage that needs money to protect it like our historical landmarks.

Irish will get by fine being a fringe minority language spoken by those that choose to speak it. It will never be the first spoken language of the country because business is done in English. That is all it is at this stage though is a minority language. Pushing for it to be the language day to day business is done in is nothing but a pipe dream pushed by people that would get a warm fuzzy feeling inside if it happened.

As this is really the sole purpose for it, its a waste of money and resources to have compulsory education in it and massive grants for it and translating documents into it. Nothing will change as the government are incapable of giving people an education that gives them the ability to fluently speak the language after 13 years of forced education in it.

Irish won't die without grants, it will stay where it is. All this money spent and you know what was achieved, sweet **** all.

looksee

The Irish language is an essential part of of Irish culture and should be treasured, taught, and encouraged.

However in the real world, English is the international language of business and the internet. I doubt we would find it as easy to encourage US tourism if they had to understand Irish to holiday here. Would multinationals want to come here if the workforce were educated and communicated only in a minority language?

While one of Ireland's big advantages in the current economic climate is the ability to speak and use an international language, it is not going to be replaced by Irish.

thebman

looksee wrote: »

The Irish language is an essential part of of Irish culture and should be treasured, taught, and encouraged.

Not really, it used to be, now it isn't. If Irish disappeared off the face of the earth, the majority of Irish society wouldn't even notice it had happened.

However in the real world, English is the international language of business and the internet.

Yes the real world, the one we live in. Irish culture is a living thing and this real world is Irish culture as it currently stands. Nostalgia is a different thing and it is what people have for the Irish language. It used to be part of our culture but it isn't really anymore except when shoved in peoples faces and even then most people ignore it.

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sparkling sea

Hated Irish in school, as I got older having go to learn Irish when I didn't want too and couldn't see the point of it definitely made me lose interest in my other subjects.

I know many people who hated school because they hated having to go to Irish class. When you start secondary school it shouldn't be compulsory, its the source of much upset and disagreement. Those who want to learn Irish should do, those who don't want to learn it shouldn't have too.

I speak English but I am still Irish, the Irish language is used as a stick for all sorts of reasons tis mad

Wibbs

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Regarding our literature,every country has its national epic.Italy has the Aeneid/Divine Comedy,France has Les Miserable,Greece has The Illiad, etc.However we are lacking in that senese,but our mythology is the most fascinating and amongst the richest in the world,we can surely find a national epic in our myth that does not involve the agony that is James Joyce and Samuel Beckett.

Eh what? We already have. The ulster cycle, in particular the Tain. One of the
more interesting national epics in many ways. The women in particular are not the usually passive creatures of classical epic. A very worthy epic if thats what you're after. Add in our body of literature(in many languages) from the 7th century on to today and we've an astonishing wealth of literary culture. Like I say in many languages. The early writers, the monks, weren't so stuffy. They saw language and writing as fluid. They wrote in Irish, Latin, Greek and even tweaked Latin to their own purposes and without them European knowledge would have been a very different thing. Another example; Beckett got his nobel prze for literature in French. Passion and adaptivity was and should be our aim. Its what made us stand out.

For you naysayers that say Irish will never be our primary spoken and written language again.Remember,Hebrew was more or less an extinct language that very few spoke until the establishment of the Israel state in 1948,the people and the government had the will,dedication and sense of pride in their heritage and identity to revive their lost language to its former "glory" (if you don't mind the phrase).

Completely diff scenario. They needed a lingua franca as so many of their citizens spoke different languages. We don't. And as you say the will was there. If it was here, we wouldnt be having this conversation.