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Torture in Palestine

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  • 17-12-2009 10:26pm
    #1
    Hellm0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭


    Article

    What is it with the US and torture, from Santiago to Abu ghraib there is a telling similarity in the methods used. Call me a conspiracy nut but it would seem to be a favored tool in US foreign involvement.


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    #2
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    "working closely with" is the old approach. Thats what they did all over Latin America.


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    #3
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Are the US trying to torpedo the peace process on purpose or something? The only way any kind of peace can be achieved is if Fatah and Hamas find some kind of middle ground. Now Hamas certainly aren't nice people (to put it mildly), but the reality is that they need to be apart of any peace process, if it is going to work. The US assisting Fatah in torture doesn't help the situation and in fact makes it worse, and once again show the US's so called moral superiority to be nothing more than a charade.


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    #4
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    "Fighting fire with fire" I believe is the expression used.

    US is dead right to treat these insurgents as they treat others in these situations.

    Keeps us all safe in our homes and out of harms way.


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    #5
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    "Fighting fire with fire" I believe is the expression used.

    If you act like a bunch of terrorists, then in the end your not better than them.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    US is dead right to treat these insurgents as they treat others in these situations.

    They were torturing sympathizers and not insurgents. Also, can we really call Hamas insurgents, when they did win a free and fair election?
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Keeps us all safe in our homes and out of harms way.

    I don't remember Hamas ever attacking the West, so I fail to see how we are being kept safe by this.


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    #6
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »

    Keeps us all safe in our homes and out of harms way.

    So when the gvuy who was tortured to death's family finds out that the CIA and the US was involved, they won't hold a grudge? No, sure who in the middle east holds a grudge.....


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    #7
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    "Fighting fire with fire" I believe is the expression used.

    US is dead right to treat these insurgents as they treat others in these situations.

    Keeps us all safe in our homes and out of harms way.
    I think we should distinguish that the CIA isnt treating these insurgents anything. Its the Palestinian Authority whom is doing so.

    So help me out here, The Palestinian Authority is detaining Hamas supporters? Why, how could that possibly be, if Hamas is the elected and legitimate controlling party?


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    #8
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    So help me out here, The Palestinian Authority is detaining Hamas supporters?

    Presumably because they want power for themselves and were too corrupt to get it via the democratic process, which is really sad, as Hamas are horrible people, and if they got there act together Fatah could beat them in a free and fair election.
    Overheal wrote: »
    Why, how could that possibly be, if Hamas is the elected and legitimate controlling party?

    Well, Hamas took over Gaza, which was due to a plot by the US and Fatah to over throw them, and as such we now have the current situation:

    US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory

    Personally, I don't like Hamas or agree with them or there methods, but at the end of the day, they reacted in there own best interests and attacked before the Fatah and US coup would get rid of them, and the coup plot by the US and Fatah led directly to the situation we have right now. The coup plot also shows once again the complete lack of respect to the democratic process by the US and Fatah.


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    #9
    Hellm0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Overheal wrote: »
    I think we should distinguish that the CIA isnt treating these insurgents anything. Its the Palestinian Authority whom is doing so.

    So help me out here, The Palestinian Authority is detaining Hamas supporters? Why, how could that possibly be, if Hamas is the elected and legitimate controlling party?

    I think it is important to recognize that agency's involvement however, especially considering the torture methods used were developed by the CIA and, indeed, implemented by other groups in far away places with similar CIA involvement. It just seems rather barbaric and more than a little hypocritical for the US government to point the finger at other regimes for using tactics they themselves will deploy at the drop of a hat.


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    #10
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

    These people have shown remarkable restraint in view of the sustained attacks on them.

    People should look at both sides before condemning.


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    #11
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    You see Over, anybody here who expresses contrary view that Israel and the US are evil and everyone else is downtrodden and put upon is a troll .

    That's Shea for ya.

    I think it's more the fact that you appear to be condoning torture that people might think you are trolling.


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    #12
    Hellm0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

    These people have shown remarkable restraint in view of the sustained attacks on them.

    People should look at both sides before condemning.

    Of course, and having done so; they are both wrong.


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    #13
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

    These people have shown remarkable restraint in view of the sustained attacks on them.

    I would very much disagree with your regarding "restraint".

    I can link to HRW or Amnesty, and come with a terrible list of atrocities commited by Israel against the Palestinians, not least of which is you know, kicking them out of there homes so they could create there own country, regardless of the wished of the indigenous populace, then there is the most recent siege of Gaza.

    The simple fact is that both side have happily murdered innocent people, but one side is able to get away with scot free due to the US protecting it.

    Now, I fail to see what terrorist attacks against Israel have to do with Fatah and the CIA assiting then in torturing people, when they could charge these people, bring them to trial and then imprison them, which would stop any such groups from engaging in terrorism against Israeli civlians. Now, seeing as nither one of these groups is Israel, I fail to see how your comment applies at all to the topic. I fail to see how Israel "restraint" or lack of it, has anything to do with Fatah torturing there rivals, you know seeing as Israel is not involved in this activity.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    People should look at both sides before condemning.

    Perhaps you should practice what you preach, as I don't remember much in the way of condemnation of the siege of Gaza or other crimes carried out by Israel, in fact I remember nothing but complete support. Perhap you need to follow your own advice.


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    #14
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    "Fighting fire with fire" I believe is the expression used.

    US is dead right to treat these insurgents as they treat others in these situations.

    Keeps us all safe in our homes and out of harms way.

    Hmm.
    I feel perfectly safe.

    America's meddling in other countries though will eventually make us all unsafe.


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    #15
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I think the last time nobody meddled: Hitler happened.


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    #16
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    Overheal wrote: »
    I think the last time nobody meddled: Hitler happened.

    Honestly? :rolleyes: :confused:


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    #17
    Hellm0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Overheal wrote: »
    I think the last time nobody meddled: Hitler happened.

    What do you mean by this exactly?


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    #18
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Hellm0 wrote: »
    What do you mean by this exactly?
    I mean somebody is always in somebodys business. When is there ever not an international presence when two countries go at it?


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    #19
    Hellm0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Overheal wrote: »
    I mean somebody is always in somebodys business. When is there ever not an international presence when two countries go at it?

    Ehm ok.

    The way you worded it, I assumed you were suggesting that by promoting torture(meddling) in Palestine the CIA was somehow preventing a new Hitler.


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    #20
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    I mean somebody is always in somebodys business. When is there ever not an international presence when two countries go at it?

    I don't think anyone here, has said that the 2 should be left to go at, and we should all ignore it. So I find your comment to be rather odd considering that.


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    #21
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »

    These people have shown remarkable restraint in view of the sustained attacks on them.

    .

    ....by increasing their illegal colonies outside their borders, launching wars on Lebanon and regular small and large incursions into the Gaza strip, holding over 10,000 Palestinians prisoner (many without trial), using legalised torture, a system of legal apartheid.....

    Jaysus, they're like a shower of hippies....
    Overheal wrote:
    I think the last time nobody meddled: Hitler happened.
    .

    Dear me....

    The reformist candidate in Fatah was Marhan Barghouti. He was informed by the US that if he ran against Abbas and won, they'd isolate the Palestinians even more so than they had under Arafat. Abbas ran and won, and the continuance of the corrupt old guard he represented directly led to the victory of Hamas in Gaza.

    Well done America.


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