Oral History

Killer Wench

Hello,

I am an American of predominately Black American and Native American heritage. For most interactions, I identify as being Half Black and Half Native, but I actually possess 1/8th Irish heritage. It may be odd to consider oneself by fractions but the US government still requires that Natives document our heritage for the purposes of tribal enrollment and census information. This document called a Certificate of Indian Blood documents all the tribal lines that a Native possesses, so I think of heritage in term of 1/4ths, 1/8ths, etc.

I am a descendant of slaves; those ancestors intermarried with Natives and Irish immigrants. I believe this is a common occurence within the Black Americans; in fact, I wish to attend TCD so that I can study the social interactions amongst Natives, Black slaves, and Irish immigrants during the early 1800s. Due to their placement on the scale of power and influence within American society, I believe these three groups frequently found themselves fighting for resources. Over time, these interactions led to "intermarriage" and offspring. It definitely is more complicated than that but I'll spare you that.

There are many oral stories to support my belief but most of them have come from other Natives or other Blacks and I am just curious if there were stories ever related back to relatives in Ireland to support this belief.

I look forward to a dialogue and lesson.

Thanks!

P.S. I noticed that there was a thread discussing Irish slaves and I didn't want to post in that thread because this is slightly off topic but if it should be merged into that thread, I completely understand.

InTheTrees

A little off your topic; there was the story a few months ago(?) about Mohamed Ali being given the Keys to the city of Ennis (in County Clare), he had an ancestor from there. There was a massive turnout for the ceremony.

Killer Wench

Thank you very much for your lead. This is the type of story that I am looking to document in my research. His ancestor settled in Kentucky in 1860 and married a freed slave.

brianthebard

By TCD do you mean Trinity College Dublin? If so I'm not sure this is the best fit for you, most/all primary sources you'll be looking for should be within the US. If you meant something else then this doesn't apply of course.

Killer Wench

brianthebard wrote: »

By TCD do you mean Trinity College Dublin? If so I'm not sure this is the best fit for you, most/all primary sources you'll be looking for should be within the US. If you meant something else then this doesn't apply of course.

Yes, I did mean Trinity College Dublin. I have communicated with the head of the department that I am applying to and she has indicated that the department(if I am accepted) will support me with my research and the library has sources to assist in my research.

You are correct that many of these stories will be found on this side of the water, thus why I am looking for leads on stories that may have been passed down through families that remained in Ireland.

hiorta

There may be difficulties arising from the racial element in that this is unlikely to have been fully related to those 'back home', the notion of white superiority still being strong in white society.
On the other hand, there are many accounts of Scottish (highlanders) blending happily and well with Native Indians. Both cultures lived close to the earth and endured the physical hardships and oppression in much the same way.

Good luck in you research, I hope it bears much fruit.

Hi

this youtube video about 23andme, may be of interest, about a Black professor, who looks at his ancestry,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnFzWClnb7E

McArmalite

For most Irish people their knowledge about ethnic rivalry etc in America would have been watching Gangs of New York or something. Unfortuanately I would say many Irish men were in the US army carrying out genocide against the native Americans, I'd probably say more than any other nationality from Europe. Also, the Irish Catholics were the bottom of the social/employment league, they would have feared the emancipation of the black people as a rival to employment etc and may well have been the most reactionary towards black and other people. Though it has to be said, the Irish fought with just about everyone over there for a time, be it Italians, Germans, Poles or anyone else !!! Though they did find common cause later with the Italians especially, as they attended the same schools, churches etc

But our treatemnt of the native and black people is unfortunately a very bad one. Their may be the odd story here and there, but generally it's not something we can be proud of from what I know, mainly as I said from the potential rivalry of others down the scale.

brianthebard

Killer Wench wrote: »

Yes, I did mean Trinity College Dublin. I have communicated with the head of the department that I am applying to and she has indicated that the department(if I am accepted) will support me with my research and the library has sources to assist in my research.

You are correct that many of these stories will be found on this side of the water, thus why I am looking for leads on stories that may have been passed down through families that remained in Ireland.

Trinity is a good university but even they will have problems assisting your research. That doesn't mean they would say it to you though. If you want to go to trinity fair enough but if I were in your situation I would be looking for places closer to home first, or at least as back up, and making a comparison between what all the departments actually have, in terms of tangible research material rather than promises.

It seems odd to go to go to a different continent when the vast majority of your research material will be on your home continent. Will it not for instance create a large budgetary strain to have to return to the states several times to research material, then go back to TCD to write up or do secondary reading? (I could be wrong but I doubt they have much primary material on your topic in the archives). Perhaps it would be easier to study in the US and take a semester or a year in TCD if that appears to fulfill your research goals.

As for leads on this side of the atlantic, studies of letters and stories sent home by immigrants is a whole other field in itself, and very very difficult to track and work with. I would be highly doubtful that it would provide much material for you.

You are of course perfectly entitled to disregard all of this, but I think you should take note of what I've said above. Out of interest what previous academic experience do you have?

Killer Wench

brianthebard wrote: »

Trinity is a good university but even they will have problems assisting your research. That doesn't mean they would say it to you though. If you want to go to trinity fair enough but if I were in your situation I would be looking for places closer to home first, or at least as back up, and making a comparison between what all the departments actually have, in terms of tangible research material rather than promises.

It seems odd to go to go to a different continent when the vast majority of your research material will be on your home continent. Will it not for instance create a large budgetary strain to have to return to the states several times to research material, then go back to TCD to write up or do secondary reading? (I could be wrong but I doubt they have much primary material on your topic in the archives). Perhaps it would be easier to study in the US and take a semester or a year in TCD if that appears to fulfill your research goals.

As for leads on this side of the atlantic, studies of letters and stories sent home by immigrants is a whole other field in itself, and very very difficult to track and work with. I would be highly doubtful that it would provide much material for you.

You are of course perfectly entitled to disregard all of this, but I think you should take note of what I've said above. Out of interest what previous academic experience do you have?

Thanks for the candid remarks. I haven't totally dismissed what you have written; quite frankly, TCD is just one of many programs that I am presently looking at. The specific program at TCD that I am interested in deals with the study of Race, Ethnicity, and Conflict; it may be that the department head is telling me these things in order for me to apply but I do believe that there will be ample area for me to re-tune my specific interest if necessary. As to the specific course, I would have to remain on campus between October to April for course work on methodology and at that time, I would be free to return to the US to do further research.

My education background includes a Bachelor of Arts in history and a Juris Doctor (law degree); not only will I be applying to the Race, Ethnicity, and Conflict course at TCD, but I will also be applying to the Conflict Resolution program (forget the exact name). I am also applying to the War Studies department at Kings College of London and the Sociology department at the University of Kent.

My long term aim is to obtain a Ph.D. in Sociology or Peace Studies concentrating on Conflict Resolution (this degree would be at an institution here in the US); my aim in looking at the interaction between Blacks, Natives, and Irish during this time period is due to the issues that McArmalite has laid out. But this will be the focus of my Master's research; my doctoral research will expand into looking at addressing conflict amongst indigenous communities, settlers, and occupiers. I want to focus on historically oppressed groups and how individuals from those communities interacted and weaved amongst groups with higher power and greater influence.

Obviously, it is much more complex than what I am laying out on the forum. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel to send me a PM. (I just won't be able to respond until I get many, many more PMs! )

InTheTrees

It sounds fascinating. Best of luck.

Ps. Go Huskies (i'm in Seattle too.)

brianthebard

Killer Wench wrote: »

Thanks for the candid remarks. I haven't totally dismissed what you have written; quite frankly, TCD is just one of many programs that I am presently looking at. The specific program at TCD that I am interested in deals with the study of Race, Ethnicity, and Conflict; it may be that the department head is telling me these things in order for me to apply but I do believe that there will be ample area for me to re-tune my specific interest if necessary. As to the specific course, I would have to remain on campus between October to April for course work on methodology and at that time, I would be free to return to the US to do further research.

My education background includes a Bachelor of Arts in history and a Juris Doctor (law degree); not only will I be applying to the Race, Ethnicity, and Conflict course at TCD, but I will also be applying to the Conflict Resolution program (forget the exact name). I am also applying to the War Studies department at Kings College of London and the Sociology department at the University of Kent.

My long term aim is to obtain a Ph.D. in Sociology or Peace Studies concentrating on Conflict Resolution (this degree would be at an institution here in the US); my aim in looking at the interaction between Blacks, Natives, and Irish during this time period is due to the issues that McArmalite has laid out. But this will be the focus of my Master's research; my doctoral research will expand into looking at addressing conflict amongst indigenous communities, settlers, and occupiers. I want to focus on historically oppressed groups and how individuals from those communities interacted and weaved amongst groups with higher power and greater influence.

Obviously, it is much more complex than what I am laying out on the forum. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel to send me a PM. (I just won't be able to respond until I get many, many more PMs! )

So you're only looking to do a one year masters in TCD? If so that sounds possible, online sources might be enough to work from, although I couldn't say for sure because this isn't my field. I'm glad you intend to do your phd at home. It might be an idea to do some very superficial research online before applying to see what sort of sources are available for when you do your dissertation.

Killer Wench

brianthebard wrote: »

So you're only looking to do a one year masters in TCD? If so that sounds possible, online sources might be enough to work from, although I couldn't say for sure because this isn't my field. I'm glad you intend to do your phd at home. It might be an idea to do some very superficial research online before applying to see what sort of sources are available for when you do your dissertation.

Yes. A M.Phil. in Race, Ethnicity, and Conflict Studies which is a twelve month program and I would be required to stay six months on campus.

johnny_doyle

this may not be totally off topic for you but someone who might be of interest for your studies is a chap called Stephen Bourne. Though based in London and focused on "Black Britain" he has Irish links.

http://www.stephenbourne.co.uk/index.html
http://www.untoldlondon.org.uk/news/ART35320.html
http://www.untoldlondon.org.uk/news/ART44398.html


He helped me with information about my grandmother's step sister, Ida Shepley even unearthing a 1938 BBC recording of her singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" (a song now associated with the England rugby team).

http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/theatre_performance/features/black_performance/history/1940-1969/index.html

She was taught by Amanda Aldridge, daughter of Ira Aldridge, who also tutored Paul Robeson when he was in the UK making the film "Proud Valley".

If Stephen can't help directly, I've no doubt he will know people who may be able to help with your studies.

In England, last year saw quite a bit of interest in Walter Tull, co-inciding with the 90th anniversary of the end of WW1 :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Tull

McArmalite

Here is a link to the magazine History Ireland. You might find something in there.

http://www.historyireland.com/

Killer Wench

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi

this youtube video about 23andme, may be of interest, about a Black professor, who looks at his ancestry,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnFzWClnb7E

Thanks for the link! I finally got to watch the video and I find the concept of finding lost cousins awesome, but from my understanding of DNA testing, it isn't an exact science yet that I would rely on to paint a portrait of my ancestral origins.

There were several tests created with the intention of establishing tribal affiliation for those people who believed they had Native American ancestry; the thest would come back saying that a person was 2% Plains Indian most likely Lakota or Cheyenne and 4% Southwest Indian most likely Navajo or Apache. Well, there are problems with specifiying tribal lineages as most tribes evolved from other tribes and then migrated from other areas. Example, Apaches were once part of the Navajo Nation but many, many generations ago, they removed themselves from the nation and established their own culture and the language evolved.

Killer Wench

johnny_doyle wrote: »

this may not be totally off topic for you but someone who might be of interest for your studies is a chap called Stephen Bourne. Though based in London and focused on "Black Britain" he has Irish links.

http://www.stephenbourne.co.uk/index.html
http://www.untoldlondon.org.uk/news/ART35320.html
http://www.untoldlondon.org.uk/news/ART44398.html


He helped me with information about my grandmother's step sister, Ida Shepley even unearthing a 1938 BBC recording of her singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" (a song now associated with the England rugby team).

http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/theatre_performance/features/black_performance/history/1940-1969/index.html

She was taught by Amanda Aldridge, daughter of Ira Aldridge, who also tutored Paul Robeson when he was in the UK making the film "Proud Valley".

If Stephen can't help directly, I've no doubt he will know people who may be able to help with your studies.

In England, last year saw quite a bit of interest in Walter Tull, co-inciding with the 90th anniversary of the end of WW1 :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Tull

Thanks for the links! I glanced over the Bourne's website and I will like to look further into his research.