Use of the Irish language on boards.ie

faceman

Never mind irish, there are english speaking posters who could do with translating their english posts into english!

Overheal

Google Translate has come so far, but it still only hardly stands up to scrutiny:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055678273 (and Translation)

I dont think a vBulletin API would fare any better right now. Reading that just gives me a headache.

dlofnep

Yeah, it does have a bit of a way to go Overheal. I agree with you, but it's a good start. The only problem with translation facilities (other than not being 100% accurate), is that if someone mispells a word, it won't even begin to entertain translation it.

Still, it was just a thought. I'd rather try and do something productive with regards to development than complain. But if people aren't in favour of a translation plugin, we can just translate our posts individually.

Overheal

no solution would be perfect. you then have to trust the person is translating themselves correctly, ie. Translation "I cordially disagree" [Actual: "Wrong again you retarded bastard"]

Good point on the typos too. I could just call someone a leathchean and youd be none the wiser.

After that it comes down to relying on Irish reading posters to Report Posts and Irish Speaking Mdoerators to moderate those posts. I thing as Nesf pointed out, there isnt enough manpower or skill on board right now to handle the language barrier on a sitewide scale.

sceptre

Dudess wrote: »

Thank god for that English translation of Peig - nabbed me a C- in higher level Irish.

There was an English translation of Peig?

Dammit to hell, I wish I'd known that, er, a number of years ago.

nesf

doubleglaze wrote: »

Seems to me that the intransigence and the rudeness is more on your side. Apprenez un peu de francais quand meme!

Yeah but realistically you'd want to be fluent in the language to stop using English and fluency is a very long way from Junior Cert French.

gleannuirce

Tom Dunne,

I don't know why I thought you were the owner of the site. Of course I accept that you aren't and apologize for my wrong assumption.

You assert "You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed..."

I believe I am being marginalized so we'll have to disagree on that. And I never claimed to be oppressed, though banning me for commenting in Irish on a discussion concerning the Irish language in planning matters is oppressive enough behaviour in my opinion.

You assert "it is also considered inappropriate to post the contents of a PM without the senders consent".
Fair enough, but at least I quoted you, and didn't accuse you of claiming to be oppressed or whatever.

You further assert "As with any real world community, there are rules, regulations and customs that must be adhered to."
I live in the real world Tom. Real house, Real mortgage, Real job (thankfully) and Real-life gaeltacht Irish speaker. And really don't like patronizing invites to live in the real world.


Bubs101: you ask "How can Irish be your first language over English, seriously"

Seriously Bubs there's loads of us. Come and visit. Or google 'gaeltacht'.


Ads by Google:You state "Either post in that forum's language or don't post at all.. "

I admire your honesty AbG, but don't make me feel marginalised please.

snyper snipes with.....
gleannuirce,

我认为，如果您张贴一个说法语的论坛的爱尔兰人，并且使用爱尔兰语是您的第一种语言的论据，我认为您会接受一点同情.

Annoying, isnt it?

No snyper, just silly.


Chris writes about his family situation

"French is their first language, but manners dictate that they speak English"

Chris, I think you need to reflect on that one.

As to the posters who have supported my view to some extent, particularly concerning the techy translating possibilities Thank You.

I am sure that some of you realise that boards.ie is a powerful medium in Ireland. I would like to be a small part of it and I don't think I should be banned for no other reason that contributing in Irish.

And Tom Dunne, I haven't got a "sense of entitlement" but I am struggling to get one.

TouchingVirus

I think you're being entirely unreasonable on this gleannuirce. We can't tell you how to feel, you feel you're being marginalised whereas majority of the people on this thread seem to be of the opinion that you're marginalising yourself.

If you walked up to me on the street and tried to talk to me in Irish I would politely request that you spoke in English. If you persisted I would cease any form of contact with you and go about my daily business. English is the first language of the majority of boards.ie users, you marginalise yourself by posting in Irish on a forum where English is the discussion language in all but the specified places.

There are many users here who think a compromise is that you can post in Irish in the other boards here if you also provide an English translation. It has been explained that moderating posts in the Irish language is a non-runner for most of the moderators here on boards.ie and thus makes it impossible for them to determine if what you are posting obeys the rules of the forum. This is a perfectly valid reason to disallow you posting in Irish without an English equivalent and if you refuse to obey the rules then action taken against you is your own fault.

You are the bilingual poster (fair play) but the onus is on you to ensure you can be understood, insisting out of plain stubbornness to only talk Irish on English speaking fora really is bad manners. The rule disallowing text speak is a similar rule to the Irish one, only there is no dedicated txtspk forum - People find it hard to read, hard to understand and it disrupts the flow of a thread, yet there is no youth here on boards.ie claiming 2 b marginalsd.

You see snyper's post as silly. It's ironic really, because that's how a majority of posters would see your post when slotted into an English speaking thread.

I also think you were being hypersensitive to Tom's real-world comment. I certainly don't see any implied invitation to live in the real world in it. I do, however, see plenty of room for argument that your insistence on speaking Irish outside of a place where Irish is the first language is sheer folly. If you went into a Pub and asked for drinks, I know many who wouldn't understand and would request it in English. If you went into a shop, the same thing would happen. Even applying for jobs you wouldn't get anywhere if you insisted on speaking Irish all the time.

As Tom pointed out, and you seem to have missed, everywhere has rules and customs. The rules of boards.ie state English is the language to converse in, if you don't converse in English you break the rules. Breaking the rules is a bannable offence. If you don't like it, don't post on boards.ie. By the way, you agreed to these rules when you signed up to the forum.

AnimalRights

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am going to cut to the chase here - lose the sense of entitlement. This is a privately owned website and the owners (not me) can do as they see fit. You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed you are being allowed to take part in an online community. If you don't like the way the community works, well then nobody is forcing you to take part.

This is such a broken record trotted out.

TouchingVirus

AnimalRights wrote: »

This is such a broken record trotted out.

That's a fair point to make when people are just being stubborn, refusing to change their ways and insisting they are right.

In this case there's been a suggested compromise in the form of a bilingual post. In fact it's been encouraged by a number of people here and I'd be all for it myself -I could improve the rusty ordinary level LC Irish I've got

If the OP doesn't compromise then a parting of the ways would really be the best course of action, boards.ie can't bend over backwards to accomodate everybody - majority rules and all that.

gandalf

AnimalRights wrote: »

This is such a broken record trotted out.

And your solution is what exactly? You seem to criticise an awful lot but never come up with a fix? Revolution can be boring too man.

gleannuirce

TV,

I know that the rules state I can post in English only. You will note that I am abiding to this rule on this board and others.

But I happen to think that an irish board like this should allow me to post in irish. You might think I am stubborn, perhaps you think all irish people who use irish as their first language are stubborn? Have you considered that your insistence on compulsory English appears stubborn to me?

Now you can tell me (and you do) that these are the rules - compulsory English - take it or leave it.

But I still don't agree that I should be banned simply for posting in Irish.

Just because I can post in English shouldn't mean I have to.

The reason I state that posting gibberish is silly by the way is because posting gibberish is silly. Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

gandalf

gleannuirce I notice you selectively ignored the bi-lingual option? What is your opinion on that? Does it not suit your "jump on the cross" agenda?

You're right virtual communities like boards are powerful mediums and if you are clever you can use them to further your obvious love of the Irish language. If you are the opposite you will reinforce peoples bad experiences with the language from when it was taught to them. Most of us were not lucky enough to grow up or live anywhere where Irish was relevant to our everyday lives.

AnimalRights

gandalf wrote: »

And your solution is what exactly? You seem to criticise an awful lot but never come up with a fix? Revolution can be boring too man.

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.
You've never asked me for a fix before, is this your 1st time?

gandalf

AnimalRights wrote: »

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.
You've never asked me for a fix before, is this your 1st time?

Do you actually have an opinion on what this thread is about or are you just firing your normal anti-moderation statements up for show?

AnimalRights

aaahhh you've lost your Modship!!
We are now gunslinger to gunslinger.....make my day!

Zaph

AnimalRights wrote: »

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.

Hardly realistic now, is it? If we allowed absolute free speech and never banned anyone the site would be overrun with spam, porn and the type of malevolent idiocy tha's prevalent on other sites, probably within a week or two. We'd then immediately lose at least 95% of our current posters and the site would cease to exist in its current, or any proper usable format.

gandalf

So you don't have any opinion on what this thread is actually about then?

(Your losing it man I stepped down as a moderator on boards at the beginning of the summer :rolleyes:)

AnimalRights

To Zaph: what's wrong with porn?
we were all made that way.

Zaph

AnimalRights wrote: »

To Zaph: what's wrong with porn?
we were all made that way.

I never said there was anything wrong with porn, as long as it's in the right place. A discussion forum that permits under-18s to join is not the appropriate place for it.

Zaph

Zaph wrote: »

Hardly realistic now, is it? If we allowed absolute free speech and never banned anyone the site would be overrun with spam, porn and the type of malevolent idiocy tha's prevalent on other sites, probably within a week or two. We'd then immediately lose at least 95% of our current posters and the site would cease to exist in its current, or any proper usable format.

Tá sin ar cheann de na cúiseanna is maith liom a úsáid boards.ie.
Tá a fhios agam go mbeidh aon spam agus nach mbeidh tuairimí maslach ó póstaeir eile a cheadú!

That is one of the reasons I like using boards.ie .
I know that there will be no spam and that abusive comments from other posters will not be allowed!

AnimalRights

You're the dry ****e at the parties right?

Tom Dunne

AnimalRights wrote: »

You're the dry ****e at the parties right?

If you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, please don't.

First and final warning.

Saibh

gandalf wrote: »

Most of us were not lucky enough to grow up or live anywhere where Irish was relevant to our everyday lives.

Which would include me. Irish was my worst subject.

I would have no objections to someone posting in Irish if they wish to. The only way I could read their post is to get it translated.

I had tried translating a few posts in Teach na nGealt subforum in AH and I couldn't find a good translation site.

If someone was trying to get an important point across in a post written in Irish, I'm guessing it may be lost somewhat through the translation.

Dudess

gleannuirce, do you just want to be able to post in Irish wherever and whenever you feel like it? Do you not see how ridiculous that would be and what a nightmare it would be to moderate and how it would disrupt the flow of a thread? An opening post in English, nine replies in English, and then reply number 11 in Irish... then "What the hell is that poster saying?" comments, then moderator stepping in, etc...

You claim you're being marginalised - would you not be marginalising people yourself by doing the above? Pretty much anyone who posts to Boards speaks English, but nowhere near the same number speak Irish.
If I joined a Teach na nGealt discussion with a post in English, it would similarly disrupt the flow, be out of place etc.

And you surely realise it's not as simple as a case of being banned merely for posting in Irish? If you did so on a discussion being conducted in English, you would firstly be asked to post in a language the other thread contributors understand, then you would be warned if you ignored the first request, then you would be banned if you ignored the warning - and that's the worse case scenario. It's at each moderator's discretion.

TouchingVirus

gleannuirce wrote: »

TV,

I know that the rules state I can post in English only. You will note that I am abiding to this rule on this board and others.

But I happen to think that an irish board like this should allow me to post in irish. You might think I am stubborn, perhaps you think all irish people who use irish as their first language are stubborn? Have you considered that your insistence on compulsory English appears stubborn to me?

Now you can tell me (and you do) that these are the rules - compulsory English - take it or leave it.

But I still don't agree that I should be banned simply for posting in Irish.

Just because I can post in English shouldn't mean I have to.

The reason I state that posting gibberish is silly by the way is because posting gibberish is silly. Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

Glennuirce,

First off I have nothing but admiration for people who can speak Irish fluently, I wish I was one of those people. Alas I have no great skill for language, even my grasp on the English language isn't as firm as it could be. I spent a day out in Spiddal with a fluent speaking friend of mine and while out there made the best attempt I could at speaking Irish. She helped when I couldn't manage to say what I wanted to say. I was in a place where Irish was the first language and rather than insist on speaking English, which I'm sure many of the people there understood, I made an attempt, only falling back on English when I couldn't get what I meant out in Irish.

Just because boards.ie is an Irish board doesn't mean that we should be allowed to speak Irish wherever we choose. Like it or not, the predominant language in Ireland is English. There are very few fluent Irish speakers compared to English speakers in this country.

My insistence to use English shouldn't appear to be stubborn to you. It is the only language I am able to converse in. If I don't converse in English then I don't converse. Stubbornness is the refusal to consider an alternative, to be unreasonabe or perversely unyielding. I do not have any alternative to English. You have an alternative to Irish.

You are at risk of being banned for breaking the rules of the forum. You may not agree with these rules, but they are there to benefit the boards.ie community in which a majority plays a big part. To come back to what I said earlier, a majority of users here find txt speak hard to read, understand and that it stops the flow of a thread while people decipher what is meant by it. Thus, txtspk is banned on boards. The majority of users here find Irish hard to read, to understand and that it stops the flow of a thread. Unlike txtspeak which is a sitewide ban, boards has a place you can talk Irish. They have a place where I can talk computers, books, art or whatever other subject I want to without excluding people with no interest in the subject - if you've no interest you won't visit that section.

You seem to have skipped over that moderation is a key part of boards.ie. Moderating your Irish posts is nigh on impossible. While it may be a shame that Ireland has let it's national language fall by the wayside it doesn't negate the aforementioned fact.

Finally, who are you to say that Chinese (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) is any less of a language than Irish? I think your link to Irish is clouding your judgement on snyper's post. There are more Chinese speakers than Irish. With all the Polish people living in Ireland now I'd wager there might be credance to the claim there are more native Polish speakers here than Irish speakers. We don't allow Polish on boards.ie either.

gleannuirce

gleannuirce wrote: »

TV,

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil na rialacha stát is féidir liom a phost i mBéarla amháin. Beidh tú faoi deara go bhfuil mé ag cloí leis an riail seo ar an mbord agus daoine eile.

Ach tarlú mé chun smaoineamh gur chóir bord Gaeilge mar seo deis dom a phost i nGaeilge. D'fhéadfá smaoineamh mé stubborn, b'fhéidir, a cheapann tú gach duine gaelach a úsáid na Gaeilge mar go bhfuil a chéad teanga stubborn? An bhfuil mheas tú gur dealraitheach do insistence ar Béarla éigeantach stubborn to me?

Anois, is féidir leat insint dom (agus a dhéanann tú) go bhfuil na rialacha - Béarla éigeantach - a chur air nó é a fhágáil.

Ach ní mé fós a dhéanamh aontaíonn gur chóir dom a bheith cosc ach d'fhoilsiú i nGaeilge.



Just Níor cheart mar is féidir liom a phost i mBéarla a chiallaíonn I a ghabhann leis.

Is í an chúis stát liom go bhfuil gibberish amaideach fhoilsiú ag an mbealach toisc go bhfuil gibberish phost amaideach. D'fhéadfadh a bheith cothrom le duine dár dteangacha náisiúnta chun sraith de cearnóga bailí, argóint cliste a thabhairt duit, ach ní go "stubborn" sean dom.

I know that the rules state I can post in English only. You will note that I am abiding to this rule on this board and others.

But I happen to think that an irish board like this should allow me to post in irish. You might think I am stubborn, perhaps you think all irish people who use irish as their first language are stubborn? Have you considered that your insistence on compulsory English appears stubborn to me?

Now you can tell me (and you do) that these are the rules - compulsory English - take it or leave it.

But I still don't agree that I should be banned simply for posting in Irish.

Just because I can post in English shouldn't mean I have to.

The reason I state that posting gibberish is silly by the way is because posting gibberish is silly. Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

Nach iarracht tú a scríobh bi-teachtaireacht dhátheangach agus a fheiceáil conas a gheobhaidh tú ar, ag baint úsáide as a aistriú go Google agus ceart na gramadaí agus mis-aistriúcháin.

Mo Ní maith go leor Gaeilge a dhéanamh sin.

Why don't you try to write bi-lingual messages and see how you get on, translate it using google and correct the grammar and mis-translations.
My Irish is not good enough to do that.

Wibbs

gleannuirce wrote: »

But I happen to think that an irish board like this should allow me to post in irish.

It does. In forums where the other users and the mods understand it.

You might think I am stubborn, perhaps you think all irish people who use irish as their first language are stubborn?

All too often I have found this to be the case sad to say.

Have you considered that your insistence on compulsory English appears stubborn to me?

Damn near 100% of the citizens of this country speak one language fluently. It just happens to be english. More people speak txtspeak as was pointed out. Hell more people in Ireland speak Polish fluently.

But I still don't agree that I should be banned simply for posting in Irish.

Because snypers albeit crude point stands. Few enough wiill understand it and few enough mods will be able to make a call on it. I'd say the same of polish too.

Just because I can post in English shouldn't mean I have to.

You're not really getting this are you, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

The reason I state that posting gibberish is silly by the way is because posting gibberish is silly. Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

First off I have to say at least you say one of our national languages. The thing is in a practical way it would be gibberish or near enough to it for most other users on the forums. Is this a pity? Yes. It's the reality though. If someone wants to post in Irish with an attached translation as Dolanbaker and others suggest, then cool. Though again the nuances may be missed. I dunno again it seems to me to be acting deliberately obtuse just to make some point. Maybe I'm missing the nuances.

Gordon

gleannuirce: why not set up a thread on (providing you are not banned from) the Teach na nGealt forum campaigning for a global shift in the boards.ie collective's preferred language?

Overheal

gleannuirce wrote: »

Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

If you saw a series of squares then I should point out, he posted in what I believe was a form of Chinese/Cantonese. Not a series of Squares. Thats what your OS will show you if you are missing the Characters/Symbols for those languages.

And secondly I believe I can get banned from Teach Na nGealt (?) for speaking English so Im not sure what the problem is.

More people speak txtspeak as was pointed out.

nd if we letm n im outa here