Islamic finance in Ireland (was Muslims and "interest free" mortgages)

CamperMan

in the Sunday Times today, there was an article saying that muslims are going to get "interest free" mortgages here in Ireland because paying interest is against one of their laws.....

I bet they take the interest paid to them by the banks..

anyway... I think I will become a muslim, sounds like a good idea to get a mortgage and pay feck all interest.

GerardKeating

CamperMan wrote: »

in the Sunday Times today, there was an article saying that muslims are going to get "interest free" mortgages here in Ireland because paying interest is against one of their laws.....

I bet they take the interest paid to them by the banks..

anyway... I think I will become a muslim, sounds like a good idea to get a mortgage and pay feck all interest.

Islamic Sharia Law prohibits the payment or acceptance of interest fees for the lending and accepting of money respectively, as did Christian law in the middle ages.

Islamic Mortgages are interest free, but this is compensated by other means, sometimes the house is sold above market rates, and also rent has to be paid on the house until loan is repaid in full, since the Bank typically will still own the house.

ch750536

They pay interest but in another name. Oddly this 'other cost' tracks the base rate really well normally.

rubadub

CamperMan wrote: »

in the Sunday Times today, there was an article saying that muslims are going to get "interest free" mortgages here in Ireland because paying interest is against one of their laws.

Surely it means they can simply not get a mortgage.

The banks should not have to supply them interest free, just like if my religion said I could not eat meat I should not be able to demand veggie food be served in all restaurants.

There was another thread about harvey normans "interest free" deal, they just called the interest "service charges".

granadaghia

dont know what they are complaing about , ask any one living in any estate {private} you will find the said people in the article dont need mortages because our cash rich hse and councils give them free houses anyway .
Most real Irish people dont qualify as we sometimes go to mass. have red hair , we get sunburn, contibute to the state, care about our country, any one ever checked out the social in other countries could we go there and live it up?

tony1kenobi

granadaghia wrote: »

dont know what they are complaing about , ask any one living in any estate {private} you will find the said people in the article dont need mortages because our cash rich hse and councils give them free houses anyway .
Most real Irish people dont qualify as we sometimes go to mass. have red hair , we get sunburn, contibute to the state, care about our country, any one ever checked ot the social in other countries could we go there and live it up?

I just learned what racial profiling is.Cheers.

jhegarty

CamperMan wrote: »

I bet they take the interest paid to them by the banks..

A practising Muslim wouldn't take or receive interest.

It's a very serious sin for them.

nevaeh-2die-4

CamperMan wrote: »

in the Sunday Times today, there was an article saying that muslims are going to get "interest free" mortgages here in Ireland because paying interest is against one of their laws.....

I bet they take the interest paid to them by the banks..

anyway... I think I will become a muslim, sounds like a good idea to get a mortgage and pay feck all interest.

there in our country now, abide by our rules or fcuk off home.

its joke that were giving into them.

typical ireland help everyone else but not your own

Amalgam

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

there in our country now, abide by our rules or fcuk off home.

its joke that were giving into them.

typical ireland help everyone else but not your own

Is the sarcasm jet flying high above my head? Your avatar suits the post so well..

'They' aren't asking you or twisting your arm, to abide by any rule, concerning this particular matter. It is just the way some folk do business elsewhere in the world.

Banks, of course, provide a service where they (the Banks) think there is a potential market.

I have no religious beliefs myself, but the practice of 'Riba' is quite a socialist ideal.. and not an entirely unpleasant one.

Here's a wider view of 'Islamic Banking'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

Run_to_da_hills

As long as they dont start placing minarets on their homes we should have nothing to worry about. :pac:

craichoe

Amalgam wrote: »

Is the sarcasm jet flying high above my head? Your avatar suits the post so well..

'They' aren't asking you or twisting your arm, to abide by any rule, concerning this particular matter. It is just the way some folk do business elsewhere in the world.

Banks, of course, provide a service where they (the Banks) think there is a potential market.

I have no religious beliefs myself, but the practice of 'Riba' is quite a socialist ideal.. and not an entirely unpleasant one.

Here's a wider view of 'Islamic Banking'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

He/She is right though, they come to our country they live by our rules.

A woman in a Muslim country is the lowest form of life, they have no choice, they are just a service.

Ireland is one of the most inhospitable places to Muslim women because of the IRA .. why ? because its illegal to cover your face.

And if they don't like it, they shouldn't come here, just like i'll never go to Dubai or the UAE ever because I just wouldn't like it there.

That doesn't make a a racist, but it does make me a realist.

Victor

CamperMan wrote: »

in the Sunday Times today,

Link?

there was an article saying that muslims are going to get "interest free" mortgages here in Ireland because paying interest is against one of their laws.....

However, for the duration of their mortgage, they are also paying rent and other charges. Overall, they are no better or worse of in their relationship with the bank. However, as mortgage interest is treated much better than rent in the tax system, overall they are worse off.

rubadub wrote: »

The banks should not have to supply them interest free, just like if my religion said I could not eat meat I should not be able to demand veggie food be served in all restaurants.

But there are vegetarian restaurants out there, are there not? And many restaurants offer some vegetarian items to get them and their friends to spend money. The banks are merely providing a service to their own economic advantage.

There was another thread about harvey normans "interest free" deal, they just called the interest "service charges".

While I think one needs to be wary of those "interest free" deals as they suddenly move to very high interest and other charges, "Islamic mortgages" would tend to be offered at commercial rates.

granadaghia wrote: »

dont know what they are complaing about , ask any one living in any estate {private} you will find the said people in the article dont need mortages because our cash rich hse and councils give them free houses anyway .

I think the HSE and councils have their problems and aren't cash rich. Can you show me on a housing application form where it asks for religion?

Most real Irish people dont qualify as we sometimes go to mass. have red hair , we get sunburn, contibute to the state, care about our country, any one ever checked out the social in other countries could we go there and live it up?

Troll much?

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

there in our country now, abide by our rules or fcuk off home.

What rules are they? What rules aren't they abiding by?

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

its joke that were giving into them.

But we aren't, this is profitable business for the banks.

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

typical ireland help everyone else but not your own

How is anyone being helped over and above anyone else? Its a matter of completing form B instead of form A.

Amalgam

Banks always win.

rubadub

craichoe wrote: »

Ireland is one of the most inhospitable places to Muslim women because of the IRA .. why ? because its illegal to cover your face.

Did a muslim woman tell you Ireland is one of the most inhospitable places on the planet? Sounds like a bloke in the pub told you a load of bullsh!t.

Victor wrote: »

.But there are vegetarian restaurants out there, are there not?

Of course there are, they have free choice to do so, you're missing my point. Are there banks that provide interest free mortgages? I read the OP like it was inferring banks were going to be forced to provide interest free mortgages. I would not like to see banks forced into providing "islamic mortgages", they should be free to decide whether they want to or not.

nevaeh-2die-4

They have a fcuked up religion that has brought nothing but pain & suffering to the world and being in a country that they are not from they want there own rules to disntant themsleves from out fundamentals of business.

if there going to live in our country lets make it as fair to all, your going to be paying interest, end of story, its not fair there giving differnt rules.

i dont care if there house prices is higher.

your in Ireland now , your paying interest,

lets say i end up in there country and i want to do something , there would be no negotiation about it, they would end sticking an ak 47 in your face and blowinng your head off infront of your family.

aidan_walsh

I love how "someone what I is not" automatically means foreigner these days... What, are there no Irish born or convert Muslims in the country?

southsiderosie

I don't necessarily see this as a group making demands, I see it as a private industry trying to expand their market share. This doesn't just happen in Ireland (which has a relatively small Muslim population); even the "secular" French are debating the question of Islamic banking.

I would also point out, contrary to some of the posts in this thread, that you as a Westerner WOULD get special treatment in some Islamic states. Access to alcohol is a major concession to foreigners in many Muslim countries - especially in major commercial hubs like Dubai.

My personal opinion is that I don't think that foreigners should expect to be accommodated in another country, especially if the exception would be counter to the fundamental principles of that society (whether those principles are Western secular liberalism or Islam). But I don't have a problem with private sector interests catering to the specific needs or tastes of minority groups if they aren't violating any civil laws. Banks offering special lending programs to Muslims are private transactions that don't really affect anyone else or necessitate changing any laws, so why does it matter?

bikeblues

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

They have a fcuked up religion that has brought nothing but pain & suffering to the world

very much like the Roman catholic religion , i'd say ?
a wealthy perverted old boys paedo club thats hates women - yeah thats not a bit fcuked up - and perish the thought it brought pain and suffering to the world..

smelltheglove

aidan_walsh wrote: »

I love how "someone what I is not" automatically means foreigner these days... What, are there no Irish born or convert Muslims in the country?

Agree with you there aidan, I have family with a muslim father, obviously they are muslim too and look it, they suffered racism when we were young yet they hold irish passports and lived here 4 months of the year.

I also have to agree with a post on the previous page though, choose to live in this country and live by its rules. My aunt lives in another country for 8 months of the year and lives completely by their rules and has done so since the 70's. If people choose to migrate here they should accept our laws, yes we are required to be more multi cultural but this should not mean changing our laws and systems to suit various religions, I am in no way being racist here, I mean imagine how it would be if all the Irish who haved moved to Australia decided to refuse to follow the systems there??? Deportation???

jhegarty

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

if there going to live in our country lets make it as fair to all, your going to be paying interest, end of story, its not fair there giving differnt rules.

So banks should be blocked from offering Muslim mortgages ?

Nody

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

They have a fcuked up religion that has brought nothing but pain & suffering to the world and being in a country that they are not from they want there own rules to disntant themsleves from out fundamentals of business.

Yes because the crusades was a peace mission right? And the inquisition was barely noticeably unpleasant and never happened and we're not even going to mention jews or Hitler.

if there going to live in our country lets make it as fair to all, your going to be paying interest, end of story, its not fair there giving differnt rules.

Sorry but you said they where breaking the LAW, what law is there that a loan needs to have interest to it? Rules, well you already pointed out that HN charges other charges and no interest so clearly they can't be breaking any rules SINCE IT IS ALREADY DONE HERE! Or are you now claiming that HN made this offer because of Muslims?

lets say i end up in there country and i want to do something , there would be no negotiation about it, they would end sticking an ak 47 in your face and blowinng your head off infront of your family.

Eer no they would not. Beyond the fact that owning a gun is not legal in the first place they also have a legal system which works about as good as Irish one (harsh such as not being allowed to leave the country in case of having debt etc. but working).

I'm not going to bother with going on about womens' right or how the right to inherit or vote was allowed long before the "modern" Western world thought it up or how the Renaissance (you know the end of the dark middle ages) was based on Arabian science and knowledge.

If you got an issue with Muslims you should probably start with reading up on the subject instead of spouting propaganda from George Bush red neck channel of information. Can you even name the biggest Islamic country in the world?

andrew

1) Christians aren't into interest either, or at least strictly speaking aren't meant to be. Usury.So all this 'hurr durr foreigners' stuff is a load of crap.

2)Continuing on from the point above to a certain extent; since when is interest a fundamental part of Irish society?

3)The notion of an 'interest free' mortgage is, as someone has already pointed out, a false one. While they may not pay 'interest', they'll pay some other fee which in a real sense amounts to the payment of interest while technically not being interest for the purposes of religious adherence.

dudara

Moved to Banking & Insurance & Pensions

dudara

old_aussie

Nody wrote: »

Can you even name the biggest Islamic country in the world?

Can you?

I know which country(by population) it is.

A country full of acts of Terrorism.

So can you tell me which country?

And they're not far from Australia

Dj Stiggie

Well put it this way

Imagine you own a bar in a town and the customers only drink alcohol. But your town becomes a hub for immigrants from Muslim countries. None of the pubs serve soft drinks because the locals don't drink them so no-one in the Muslim community goes to the pubs because they are not catered for. Even though there is no law requiring you to do so you will start serving soft drinks to maximise your customer base which is wha the banks have done

bringitdown

Sharia compliant finance is all a matter of semantics.

You pay for the service of a mortgage, credit card, or whatever financial service but it is not called interest. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking#Islamic_financial_transaction_terminology)

I don't get the fuss ... they ain't 'winning' against the banks.

The only thing you might make a fuss about is bending the 'norms' to satisfy semantics however I think that is entirely the domain of the banks as a business and not us.

If they wanted (and our government was seriously considering) to reform the constitution (for example) toward a Sharia basis then hey ... I'll be at the front of the protest munching a ham sandwich.

bringitdown

Dj Stiggie wrote: »

Well put it this way

Imagine you own a bar in a town and the customers only drink alcohol. But your town becomes a hub for immigrants from Muslim countries. None of the pubs serve soft drinks because the locals don't drink them so no-one in the Muslim community goes to the pubs because they are not catered for. Even though there is no law requiring you to do so you will start serving soft drinks to maximise your customer base which is wha the banks have done

Fuppen hell ... you could argue to shut down the Chinese \ Italian \ etc restaurants on that basis ... does it affect you in the slightest in your day to day life or do you just object to Fanta filled Muslims?

If the banks started insisting that everyone follow Sharia principles then you have a case ... as I see it, it makes no difference to me.

Note I'm no fan of the Muslim religion (or any for that matter) I just think this kind of thing wastes brain cells and deflects from more important issues.

Dj Stiggie

bringitdown wrote: »

Fuppen hell ... you could argue to shut down the Chinese \ Italian \ etc restaurants on that basis ... does it affect you in the slightest in your day to day life or do you just object to Fanta filled Muslims?

If the banks started insisting that everyone follow Sharia principles then you have a case ... as I see it, it makes no difference to me.

Note I'm no fan of the Muslim religion (or any for that matter) I just think this kind of thing wastes brain cells and deflects from more important issues.

I think you missed my point, I'm saying that the pub would sell alcohol and soft drinks to maximise customers, not exclude alcohol or non-alcoholic drinkers. I think it's fair enough that banks are doing this. Why shouldn't Muslims be allowed get screwed over like the rest of us?

bringitdown

Dj Stiggie wrote: »

I think you missed my point, I'm saying that the pub would sell alcohol and soft drinks to maximise customers, not exclude alcohol or non-alcoholic drinkers. I think it's fair enough that banks are doing this. Why shouldn't Muslims be allowed get screwed over like the rest of us?

Well they are as I said, it is just a matter of semantics.

An objective test would be to take 2 identical properties and finance one conventionally and finance the other with a sharia compliant product and see who pays more upon completion of their respective terms.

Of course you will get further into the mire when you decide which conventional product to use and which interest rate to use ... similarly what is the best 'sharia compliant' product to use and so on.

Like I said ... there are bigger things to worry about and banks will not loose their shirt on any product they provide (well - leveraged, risk-sensible banks that is ... oh wait ...)

ch750536

ffs guys, go get educated.

We need more muslims in the country and less gob****es. :mad:

Cabaal

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

They have a fcuked up religion that has brought nothing but pain & suffering to the world.......

Sorry I believe your referring to Islamic but your description fits the Catholic religion perfectly for the past oh I don't know 800 years +....even up to the present day :rolleyes: