Shopping up North this Christmas? - Make sure your tax is in order!

_Kaiser_

Just passing on this cautionary tale...

The other half's mother was shopping up in Enniskillen today and came back to the car to find a load of cars clamped outside Ernside and Asda.

Upon closer inspection she realised that all the cars were southern reg and the notice stuck on the windscreen said that the reason was for the tax being out.

Apparently there was some very annoyed shoppers fighting with Asda management only to be told that it wasn't their doing - the local traffic wardens have been doing this and the only options are to either pay by credit card on the spot or travel to Omagh to settle the bill with cash.

Be careful folks!

colm_mcm

can they legally do this? Isn't it a private car park rather than public?

_Kaiser_

colm_mcm wrote: »

can they legally do this? Isn't it a private car park rather than public?

Well legal or not, they have been doing it anyway it seems.

EDIT: I did see a thread recently (here or in Commuting perhaps?) about the PSNI impounding southern cars for not being taxed so it would seem to be the same idea.

Matt Simis

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well legal or not, they have been doing it anyway it seems.

EDIT: I did see a thread recently (here or in Commuting perhaps?) about the PSNI impounding southern cars for not being taxed so it would seem to be the same idea.

Your saying that they were clamped for not having UK Tax on their foreign cars? So basically you cannot drive a car (temporally) into the UK legally if this is true.

Paulw

It's been discussed here many times already.

A quick search should show a number of threads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055757590

_Kaiser_

Paulw wrote: »

It's been discussed here many times already.

A quick search should show a number of threads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055757590

True, but that's where cars have been stopped at checkpoints/pulled in by the PSNI. This is the first time I've heard of cars being targeted in shopping centre car parks by traffic/parking wardens.

Shield

Are you saying the Roads Service clamped Irish registered vehicles parked in shopping centre car parks, for displaying an expired Irish tax disc?

_Kaiser_

psni wrote: »

Are you saying the Roads Service clamped Irish registered vehicles parked in shopping centre car parks, for displaying an expired Irish tax disc?

Well that's what she tells me - maybe it's something to do with a rerun of this:

Under legislation enacted last October, the DVA was given increased powers including the clamping and removal of vehicles in any public place such as car parks and unadopted roads.

... and some parking warden got a bit overenthusiastic?

EDIT: Another link: http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Rage-as-Donegal-drivers-targeted.5885690.jp

When the Journal put it to the DVA that they were 'targeting southern drivers' for not having car tax, and asked where the money goes, a spokesperson said: "During anti-evasion operations, all unlicensed vehicles, no matter where they are registered, run the same risk of being clamped.

Shield

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well that's what she tells me

She's very mistaken. Roads Service/NCP can't and won't clamp vehicles registered in ROI for displaying an expired tax disc in NI.

EDIT: All the links you have here are for vehicles registered in NI.

_Kaiser_

psni wrote: »

She's very mistaken. Roads Service/NCP can't and won't clamp vehicles registered in ROI for displaying an expired tax disc in NI.

EDIT: All the links you have here are for vehicles registered in NI.

.. except the edit in my last post before yours which seems that southern cars can and are being stopped/clamped/impounded.

Random

I've seen a couple of threads at this stage and I'm lost. Once I have valid tax and I'm driving in NI then what's the issue? If I have ROI tax which is valid and in date then it's valid tax ? Am I missing something?

_Kaiser_

Random wrote: »

I've seen a couple of threads at this stage and I'm lost. Once I have valid tax and I'm driving in NI then what's the issue? If I have ROI tax which is valid and in date then it's valid tax ? Am I missing something?

No you're right but if your southern tax is out of date then the NI authorities can and apparently will prosecute you under the conditions connected to their regulations - not ours (grace period etc)

rccaulfield

Was her southern tax out of date then?

_Kaiser_

rccaulfield wrote: »

Was her southern tax out of date then?

Nope.. but apparently a lot of others were!

Random

So this thread is basically a warning that if you don't have tax on your car that you'll get stopped in NI as well as ROI?

_Kaiser_

Random wrote: »

So this thread is basically a warning that if you don't have tax on your car that you'll get stopped in NI as well as ROI?

Basically, except that it seems that the NI authorities aren't as forgiving as ours (generally) are.

As I said at the top, just posted it as a warning anyway

Shield

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

No you're right but if your southern tax is out of date then the NI authorities can and apparently will prosecute you under the conditions connected to their regulations - not ours (grace period etc)

This is all too "apparently" for me. I operate under current legislation, and so do the Roads Service. Legislation does not exist to enable the Roads Service to CLAMP a vehicle registered in ROI in an NI supermarket car park for displaying an expired ROI tax disc.

Voodoomelon

Indeed, this sounds like a load of bull to me, no offence to the OP. Even if it were true, having have clamping as a method of penalty sounds ridiculous.

DonJose

Sounds like one of those wives tales to stop people shopping up the north If the traffic wardens in the south can't be bothered to clamp untaxed cars, why would they do it up north.

_Kaiser_

No offence taken or intended to anyone on this thread, but as I said I've posted this in good faith with a link from a local paper to back it up (post #8), but hey believe it or don't. As I said, it wasn't my/OH's car that was affected so I have no personal stake/grudge in this.

Maybe someone who was clamped today will post and then ye can tell him he's imagining things too! :rolleyes:

Alun

Wasn't there something in another thread about being able to drive your car in other countries being subject to the conditions of the Vienna Convention on Road Transport, and that one of the conditions of this was that the car had to be fully legal in it's country of origin to be allowed to drive in the other? Something like that, anyway. Countries could apply additional constraints, such as requiring hi-viz vests or warning triangles, but there was a minimum set of requirements that applied to all. I had a quick read through it, and there was no explicit mention of road/motor tax being part of those requirements though.

This the thrid or fourth thread on this recently, so maybe PSNI could ask some of his colleagues under what legislation they think they're operating and get back to us to put this one to bed once and for all?

cadaliac

The OP stated where he got the info and where it happened. He also said that he didn't have any personal gain by relaying the story to us. More of a heads up.
i know that there is a large crackdown on tax on boarder counties (relative who travels across the boarder a lot has informed me of this), but I was unaware of the clampers n the supermarket car parks. Just because they are doing it doesn't mean that they are legally clamping either. Could be a case of some jumped up clampers getting above their station.

Dooish

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

No offence taken or intended to anyone on this thread, but as I said I've posted this in good faith with a link from a local paper to back it up (post #8), but hey believe it or don't. As I said, it wasn't my/OH's car that was affected so I have no personal stake/grudge in this.

Maybe someone who was clamped today will post and then ye can tell him he's imagining things too! :rolleyes:

i work in asda and you are correct they clamped loads of cars today for having no tax. all cars were targeted and it made no difference if it was a 26 county reg car or a 6 county car. erneside shopping centre, dunnes, tescos, college car parks and any other private car parks were targeted. dvla now have the right to clamp on private carparks where as before they did not.

some shopper today whos car was not taxed for 10 months was clamped so he went and got a hacksaw to the clamp and was due-fully arrested was criminal damage by psni.

same happen in cookstown, omagh, strabane and derry last week

neilthefunkeone

That is absolutely crazy... Thanks for clearing it up Dooish

Seth Brundle

aaaw crap!
My tax expired at the end of November and I won't have a disk in time for the trip up to the in-laws.
@psni - in general what kind of leeway is there on out of date tax?

johndaman66

Dooish wrote: »

some shopper today whos car was not taxed for 10 months was clamped so he went and got a hacksaw to the clamp and was due-fully arrested was criminal damage by psni.

Read on the other thread that was linked to in post #5 of this thread that anyone whose tax had expired and was clamped in Northern Ireland could not get their vehicle back until a fine of £260 was paid, with £160 of that fine being refunded if the outstanding motor tax had been paid in full within 14 days. As such would not like to be in the shoes of the above person on the run up to Christmas if the fine is that severe in the first place (assuming there is some correlation between release fee fine and prosecution for criminal damage). You would be a long time cutting a wheelclamp with a hacksaw before you would get it off and end up cutting your tyre also I'd imagine.

I know if it was my ould yoke I'd probably end up leaving it with PSNI!! - One of the few perks of driving a clapped out banger!

Dooish

kbannon wrote: »

aaaw crap!
My tax expired at the end of November and I won't have a disk in time for the trip up to the in-laws.
@psni - in general what kind of leeway is there on out of date tax?

they used to give you two weeks but you be lucky to get that now

Pete4779

Matt Simis wrote: »

Your saying that they were clamped for not having UK Tax on their foreign cars? So basically you cannot drive a car (temporally) into the UK legally if this is true.

If you are travelling in another EU state your car has to be legally insured, taxed and registered in your home state, or else they can impound the car. I.e., you are only allowed drive in another EU country with your Irish-plated car based on the car being legal in your home country.

cormie

So basically, if everything is above board, all tax, nct and insurance valid and in date, you don't have a problem?

hi5

How do they know what constitutes a legal car and what doesnt?
Do they have a hand book which shows the requirements of each EU country?
Can they tell the difference between a residend parking permit in Greek an a Greek tax disc?
Do all EU countrys have tax discs?
Do some countries use 'tags' on the number plates?

I presume the same would apply here in the south,are the Guards instructed on all of the above? maybe they are:)

stealthyspeeder

I think that is shocking behaviour by the traffic Wardens up north.

They are really chancing their arm. But as some posters eluded to, they would not not know the ins and outs of a foriegn countries tax system. I dont see how they could do this legally. The tax would not be paid to the HMRC in any event, so I dont see how they have the power to clamp a car on the basis of enforcing a tax which they would not be recieving. They are in effect, acting like oppertunistic, profitering vigalantes for a foreign government.


That all being said, I do not see why anyone should be driving a car which they have not taxed. IF you pay your tax like everyone else, you will never encounter this problem. (stepping off the high horse for second, I would enraged if I was clamped by a foriegn governments officals, for a domestic tax issue!)

stealthyspeeder

hi5 wrote: »

I presume the same would apply here in the south,are the Guards instructed on all of the above? maybe they are:)

From revenues website (VRT 2 exemptions)

The vehicle must have been acquired with all the appropriate taxes paid and these must not have been exempted or refunded in any way. The standard registration plates in use in the domestic market of a country are normally accepted as evidence of this

I would assume the same logic that the customs apply, would apply for the Traffic Wardens and Guardai here. It seems logical, as I dont think the Irich Government would be in a position to give offical training or documentation on the tax discs of another countries cars.

Mylow

Friend of mone was stopped a few weeks ago between Starbane and Omagh. His tax was 2 months out, he car impounded and fined £260. Was told if he provided proof that he paid his road tax he would be refunded £160. He was not a happy bunny.

As a side note, the checkpoints are cracking down on front tinted windows if they do not meet original manufacturers levels. £300 on the spot fine if your not willing to remove the aftermarket tints fitted on front windows.

Alun

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

But as some posters eluded to, they would not not know the ins and outs of a foriegn countries tax system.

Not every country no, but it's not exactly rocket science when it's the only country with a land border right next door though is it?

stealthyspeeder

Alun wrote: »

Not every country no, but it's not exactly rocket science when it's the only country with a land border right next door though is it?

Common sense would say so but in todays PC world of human rights, Europen courts of Equality and Fairness, blah blah etc.... you would think that "one off" or only for Country A, rules could not really be official procedure?

BeardyGit

kbannon wrote: »

aaaw crap!
My tax expired at the end of November and I won't have a disk in time for the trip up to the in-laws.
@psni - in general what kind of leeway is there on out of date tax?

Tax it online, print out the confirmation page and stick that in the windscreen.... You'll be more likely not to be done for it, wouldn't you?

Drummerboy08

Well, the way I look at it is like this.

The PSNI/Traffic Wardens are saving me tax money by doing the Gardai's job for them. If they want to clamp all southern cars with no tax, burst on. I suppose the people who dont tax their cars are trying to save even more money by buying their road tax up North too?

Serves anyone right who has no tax and gets done up there.

cadaliac

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Well, the way I look at it is like this.

The PSNI/Traffic Wardens are saving me tax money by doing the Gardai's job for them. If they want to clamp all southern cars with no tax, burst on. I suppose the people who dont tax their cars are trying to save even more money by buying their road tax up North too?

Serves anyone right who has no tax and gets done up there.[/quote]
No it doesn't really - sorry. I do not agree. And I do not think the discussion is for this fourm either.
My 2c.

Drummerboy08

cadaliac wrote: »

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Well, the way I look at it is like this.

The PSNI/Traffic Wardens are saving me tax money by doing the Gardai's job for them. If they want to clamp all southern cars with no tax, burst on. I suppose the people who dont tax their cars are trying to save even more money by buying their road tax up North too?

Serves anyone right who has no tax and gets done up there.[/quote]
No it doesn't really - sorry. I do not agree. And I do not think the discussion is for this fourm either.
My 2c.

I think it does. Why should I pay my tax and you not pay yours? Anyone who doesnt pay their taxes deserves everything they get IMO.

seamus

http://www.lbp.police.uk/information/driving_uk/index.asp

Bringing Vehicles into the UK
There are international agreements which provide for the temporary use of a vehicle in a foreign country for a limited time, usually 6 months in a 12 month period. It is the responsibility of the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country. A visitor to the U.K. may use a vehicle displaying foreign plates, provided that all taxes (including vehicle excise duty) are paid in their country of origin. Once a vehicle has been registered in the U.K. it must display a current Vehicle Excise Licence and if over three years old be submitted for a Ministry of Transport Test.

I assume that they're taking an expired disc as proof that tax is outstanding in the country of origin and so the vehicle is not legal to drive on UK roads.

If you can show that you've paid your road tax, they cannot fine you or clamp you. You don't *have* to show a valid disc.

cadaliac

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

cadaliac wrote: »

I think it does. Why should I pay my tax and you not pay yours? Anyone who doesnt pay their taxes deserves everything they get IMO.

Well, fair enough to people who do not pay their taxes, they can get punished in the south. I agree about paying my fair share of tax - just like everyone elce. I do not condone tax exemption.
If on the other hand your tax has expired by less than a month, and you generally pay your taxes - they can fcuk right off. I just think it is way OTT and for someone who has genienly (sp) forgotton to renew their tax ?? This is civil rights stuff. No, not about paying the tax, please lets not aggue about that, but your right as an Irish citizen - in another duristriction.

Drummerboy08

cadaliac wrote: »

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Well, fair enough to people who do not pay their taxes, they can get punished in the south. I agree about paying my fair share of tax - just like everyone elce. I do not condone tax exemption.
If on the other hand your tax has expired by less than a month, and you generally pay your taxes - they can fcuk right off. I just think it is way OTT and for someone who has genienly (sp) forgotton to renew their tax ?? This is civil rights stuff. No, not about paying the tax, please lets not aggue about that, but your right as an Irish citizen - in another duristriction.

Well i'll agree with that much alright.

stealthyspeeder

Tax should always be paid

Tax by nature is an issue for a domestic government

Enforcement of a domestic tax by a foriegn government is wrong in my opinion and opens up the possibility of wrongdoing and abuse of power by the foreign government.

If you went on holiday to Spain and the Spanish revenue confiscated your luggage and said they wanted proof that Irish VAT had been paid on all the items, and you had to pay a fine if you couldnt prove it, you would be outraged. Just because the the item in question (car) is bigger and more valuable, it is in effect the same principle.

ScouseMouse

If they are doing cars that do not have "home tax" paid, then so be it.

If they accept visiting cars, cars from any country, its is only reasonable that they should be legal in their home juristiction.

If not, do the lot of them.

If the guards were not so lenient/under-resourced, then they would not be on the road in the first place.

If your tax is out of date in Ireland then you are not legal but the chances of getting caught are slim. If you are not legal in the North, they do you.

Whats the problem?