GPs! What's the point?

Lands Leaving

CDfm wrote: »

it not like a phD as GPs are generalists - a Masters maybe

Im going to be really mean and say a nurse with a prescription pad and if the Nurses of Ireland have their way they will all be doctors sooon.

You still need a PhD in medicine to become a GP. You can't be called 'Doctor' without one.

Herbal Deity

I think you can. I think the term "doctor" in medicine is different to "doctor" in other disciplines.

I could be very wrong, however.

Herbal Deity

Lands Leaving wrote: »

No... but then if you do a PhD in any other subject and get a job off the back of it you can likely expect a similarly large financial reward.

I do agree that gps are too expensive, but I think it's on the government to better regulate it than the GP's themselves. They earn a wage comparable with the top rank of many professions, it's just unfortunate that they deal directly with the public and often a public who can't afford their services.

Healthcare should be universal and affordable, if not free. But at the same time, we can't punish the hard work of people who want to be doctors, just because they're at the frontline of medicine.

All true I guess.

It is frustrating when you go in, explain all your symptoms and then all they say is "ah right, well I prescribe you an antibiotic for that...". Or if you go online beforehand, you can figure out more or less what they're going to prescribe before you go in. I'd still go, just in case it happens to be a rare occasion where I have something serious that only they would recognise, but still...

Lands Leaving

Well maybe I'm wrong. But the fás site still makes it seem like a huge amount of work:

It takes six years of university education and training to become a medical doctor. Following that period of time the newly-qualified doctor spends one year as an intern or house officer in a teaching hospital. Following the intern year the junior doctor then usually enters a specialised training scheme.

To become a GP you will need a further three years training. A further year is then spent as a trainee in a teaching general practice. General practitioners then complete an examination to become a member of the Irish College of General Practitioners or The Royal College of General Practitioners.

All newly qualified medical practitioners are required to register with the Medical Council. The Irish College of General Practitioners runs short courses in a range of topics to keep practitioners up to date.

Candidates are required to pass a medical health assessment prior to admission and from time to time thereafter in accordance with the health policy of the Faculty of Medicine. The assessment includes testing for hepatitis B and tuberculosis.

Please visit QualifaX at http://www.qualifax.ie/ for more information on relevant courses. (Please note that you will be leaving the Career Directions website. You should save your answers if you wish to return later)

Harsh.

emtrgnmb

This is not the case,

Undergraduate medicine consists of five/six years and a suite of three degrees, MB BCh BAO, this entitles someone to become a registered medical practitioner, and gain the title "Doctor" as in the noun. Likewise dentists get this title.

To become a GP requires further training, 4 years on a specialist course. It does not consist of a Phd.

Only some doctors complete a Phd in medicine, it is research based and is useful in applying for a consultancy post.

Lands Leaving

Herbal Deity wrote: »

All true I guess.

It is frustrating when you go in, explain all your symptoms and then all they say is "ah right, well I prescribe you an antibiotic for that...". Or if you go online beforehand, you can figure out more or less what they're going to prescribe before you go in. I'd still go, just in case it happens to be a rare occasion where I have something serious that only they would recognise, but still...

Thats exactly how I feel tbh. Would be nice if we could just go to the pharmacy and pick up some penicillin or whatever it is we need instead of 50-60 for the GP then 20+ on medicine.

emtrgnmb

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I think you can. I think the term "doctor" in medicine is different to "doctor" in other disciplines.

I could be very wrong, however.

You are correct here, not very many doctors do a Phd in medicine, it is usually senior doctors or consultants.

Doctor in other disciplines infers the person has been awarded a Phd.

Lands Leaving

emtrgnmb wrote: »

This is not the case,

Undergraduate medicine consists of five/six years and a suite of three degrees, MB BCh BAO, this entitles someone to become a registered medical practitioner, and gain the title "Doctor" as in the noun. Likewise dentists get this title.

To become a GP requires further training, 4 years on a specialist course. It does not consist of a Phd.

Only some doctors complete a Phd in medicine, it is research based and is useful in applying for a consultancy post.

Thanks for clearing that up.

emtrgnmb

Herbal Deity wrote: »

All true I guess.

It is frustrating when you go in, explain all your symptoms and then all they say is "ah right, well I prescribe you an antibiotic for that...". Or if you go online beforehand, you can figure out more or less what they're going to prescribe before you go in. I'd still go, just in case it happens to be a rare occasion where I have something serious that only they would recognise, but still...

I can completely relate to this, and agree the price of GP consultations does need to be reviewed. But I dont think it should be done on the basis that "Oh GPs are just the same as everyone, so lets pay them the same as everyone"

This is not saying that they are better than anyone, but you can't dumb them down in an effort to reduce their charge.

CDfm

emtrgnmb wrote: »

I can completely relate to this, and agree the price of GP consultations does need to be reviewed. But I dont think it should be done on the basis that "Oh GPs are just the same as everyone, so lets pay them the same as everyone"

This is not saying that they are better than anyone, but you can't dumb them down in an effort to reduce their charge.

Ah cmon. They run the health service and can't even tell nurses what to do in hospitals.

Dr Galen

CDfm wrote: »

Ah cmon. They run the health service and can't even tell nurses what to do in hospitals.

i might be missing something on this thread but what do you mean by this?

CDfm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i might be missing something on this thread but what do you mean by this?

OOOPs - I was being a bit flippant but the point was made that Doctors are academically very intelligent and so deserve the money the make.

So ok - there is stuff the cant manage like work practices of nurses and unions and cost management and service delivery in the Health Service either individually or as a group. So if they are so collectivelly bright maybe.......I have often seen people say they cant get nurses to take blood, insert IVs or even mop up and infection rates in hospitals are very high.

So for someone to say or agree that 60 euro a visit is not much doesnt appreciate how 60 euro may split in a family budget.Its bloody expensive.

So price wise it can price medical care out of reach of the ordinary person with the well off and those on medical cards being cared for while those who pay the cost of the facilities and doctors training with their income tax and prsi have to pay either themselves or supplement with insurance.

So when someone complains about price and value for money they may well have a point. Doctors hardly have been advocates for ordinary people in getting healthcare.

Sorry for the quips and the rant.

Mailman

An interesting thread!
Those within the profession display their indifference for and to their customers.
Where consultation fees are concerned it is apparent they feel they are "worth it".
Their notions of self-importance just drip off the screen before me.
They refuse to acknowledge that their long expensive education was heavily subsidised by the public who are now their patients and they feel they owe their patients nothing. Quite the reverse actually; five minutes of their time is precious and they don't even guarantee that the patient will get to meet the shamen at the pre-arranged time. These consultations often amount to no more than a chat in which the Doctor may or may not leverage his experience depending on the mood he's in; and who's the patient to say whether he got a good service or not. At least with a Shamen you get money's worth with a bit of song and dance.

Notice how the blame was directed at the OP for the poor delivery of the service in question, not at those delivering the service.

The job appears to be viewed by those in the job as a well paid high status profession and not a vocation.

My epiphany came when I was working for a while in Germany across the desk from a particularly unhealthy work colleague with a list of genuine ailments as long as your arm. But that was Germany. He could go to a Doctor as needed.
In Ireland that man would be at best out of a job on disability or more likely dead. He simply couldn't afford to visit a doctor in Ireland at €65 a pop. The Irish solution is brutal; very well paid doctors with higher rates of mortality and chronic illness amongst their patients. Those with chronic illnesses don't have the energy to assert their rights; they're silenced. The dead are..... dead and that leaves Doctor's free to shout from the rooftops about the great works they do with no one to contradict them.

You'll see comments worthy of Sir Humphrey Appelby like "agree the price of GP consultations does need to be REVIEWED" and elsewhere "we can't punish the hard work of people who want to be doctors"
The welfare of patients is of lesser importance to those within the profession than the protection of their perceived elevated position within society and long term wealth.

For the rest of us mere mortals, all I can suggest is that you look after your health because in this country the vested interest health industry cartel is more important than the right of access of the ordinary citizen to affordable healthcare. The profession is for ever, the patients shake off their mortal coil. That's just the way it is here.
As you can see from this thread there are braggarts within the profession who like to remind others they are highly intelligent and highly educated. Don't expect an impartial view of their profession from those people
I would say the profession within Ireland is sickening but by "sickening" I mean revolting.

Pffffft. what am I thinking. I must be a loon or have a grudge. Sure there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with Irish GPs; they're grrrrrrrr8!

CDfm

That is interesting mailman because it shows a real Gap in healthcare

So you have - those who can afford and those with medical cards and there is a big gap with those in the middle. Also there is a huge gapin facilities for men and women.

Fcek - it just shows howrough it is - the Healthcare budget is so big and does so little

Not saying that GPs are moneygrabbing scumbags (a good GP is worth money and I have one) but there are also a lot of mediocre ones that are not great.

So ya - I would expect Doctors as a body to have a greater say on how the Health Budget is split but that does not seem to be the case.

I have cousins who thru political and other means had a special facility for two disabled kids nearby. A bit off topic but -they could have moved home 20 miles to be near an existing facility. They just had access to a support group that was state funded who campaigned etc and it cost squillions for this place. In fairness, they live beside his Mother:rolleyes:

So IMHO - doctors have very little influence over how the Healthcare budget is spent. The medical card system etc does provide them with a guaranteed income and on top of that they have private patients for extras. If I was looking for a housecall I would get a foreign doctor asc Irish Doctors dont need the money.

So yes -Doctors are well paid and we probably need lots more to bring the price down.

emtrgnmb

Mailman you have a very poor view of, well the healthcare system in general, Doctors, and the way it is managed.

It would be impossible for anyone to defend the Irish Healthcare system to any great degree.

To my knowledge no General Practitioners have posted. So it is rather unfair to brand them as self important, and indifferent. Equally to suggest they don’t appreciate their education, as much as any other Irish graduate is unfair.

Perhaps you have has bad some bad experiences with you own GP, and like all jobs there are good and bad. I do feel however, in Ireland, Doctors, Nurses and healthcare professionals in general do their best in a poorly managed, underfunded (or poor allocation of funding) system. Doctors do the best they can for patients.

To suggest that to doctors the "welfare of patients is of lesser importance to those within the profession than the protection of their perceived elevated position within society and long term wealth" is simply not true. The firm majority of doctors work, and work hard for their patients, and why not, they should do so. Whether GPs remuneration is justifiable for that, currently not likely, and its not something I dispute with you.

The "braggarts within the profession who like to remind others they are highly intelligent and highly educated", similarly I don’t think any such comment was posted from anyone in the profession. And is there anything wrong with doctors being highly educated, is this not a desirable quality in someone who is trying to diagnose and treat illness or injury?

Mailman

Sorry, please don't mistakenly extend my observations to other parts of the healthcare system. Re-read it with a view to the role of GPs within the healthcare system and the service they do or do not provide.

emtrgnmb

But conclusions have been drawn, on your part, based on the views of GPs posting on the thread. And there has yet to be a post from someone who cliams to be a GP...

Mailman

emtrgnmb wrote: »

But conclusions have been drawn, on your part, based on the views of GPs posting on the thread. And there has yet to be a post from someone who cliams to be a GP...

I said "profession". GP is but a variation of same. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Address the primary criticisms I have made and stop trying to poke around the edges of the post to devalue it's core which for some is an uncomfortably accurate assessment of the actuality.
Those within the profession who operate as GPs are not working toward the best interests of their patients for the reasons stated above.

Profession: a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science

Mailman

I'm withdrawing from this discussion. My initial post to the thread can be viewed on it's own merits.
those within the profession can try to shout it down.
It is what it is and doesn't tally with the line spun by those within the profession who too have their own naturally biased opinion of who and what they are and the service they occassionally provide.
I've got XMAS shopping to do.

PCPhoto

Novella wrote: »

Well, I hope to study Medicine next year and while I don't plan on being a GP, (I'd like to specialise), I think considering how much work goes into getting that degree in the first place, charging 50/60 euro a visit isn't that substancial.

It takes a massive amount of interest, dedication and sheer hard work to become qualified and I'll never begrudge any doctor the money they earn.

No one forces people to go to a GP. If you don't think they're worth the money, don't go. At the end of the day, if you need a prescription, you'll have to see a doctor and so what if it takes them two minutes to diagnose what you need? Not every person on the street can do that.

I think it's offensive to suggest they are over-charging or that their money is easily earned.

isnt that part of the problem ..... if you have a chest infection .... a really bad one (possibly bronchitis or pneumonia) .... you goto Doc and he/she says....."hmmm... I think you might have a chest infection" )no sh1t sherlock and there was me thinking the phlegm coming up was due to an infected toe) ....

Anyway Doc continues in his sentence " that'll be €50....now take this prescription down to my mate the pharmacist and give him some of your money"

majority of the time Docs in this country prescribe (over-prescribe) anti inflammatories and analgesics....... take these for a week and come back if ya still have problems.

In their defence I can understand why they do charge a decent sum of money (€50ish) .... this is so people will think twice about turning up at the docs surgery 'cos they have a pain in their tummy etc.

emtrgnmb

I do not deny the Primary Care / GP system is not well executed in Ireland.

I do not dispute there should be a fairer system of charging for Primary Care.

I am honestly not trying to put words in your mouth.

I am trying to read your post in context. I think it is acceptable for you to clarify something which appears inherently incorrect. i.e. posting a rebuttal for comments for a group of GPs posts of which there are none, you address the "profession" by which I presume you mean medicine as a whole, then highlight GPs. There were some comments which equate to what you describe by someone who had an ambition to study medicine...they do not represent the profession.

"GPs are not working toward the best interests of their patients for the reasons stated", for the reasons you stated I neither agree or disagree with you in totality.

But GPs as a whole can't be branded as a malicious group, only working for financial gain, and I can assure you this is not the case.

CDfm

emtrgnmb wrote: »

Mailman you have a very poor view of, well the healthcare system in general, Doctors, and the way it is managed.



Equally to suggest they don’t appreciate their education, as much as any other Irish graduate is unfair.

Maybe so

Perhaps you have has bad some bad experiences with you own GP, and like all jobs there are good and bad. I do feel however, in Ireland, Doctors, Nurses and healthcare professionals in general do their best in a poorly managed, underfunded (or poor allocation of funding) system. Doctors do the best they can for patients

This is the bit I have problems with as doctors and nurses have representative organisations that negotiate the work practices and manage the resourses

To suggest that to doctors the "welfare of patients is of lesser importance to those within the profession than the protection of their perceived elevated position within society and long term wealth" is simply not true. The firm majority of doctors work, and work hard for their patients, and why not, they should do so. Whether GPs remuneration is justifiable for that, currently not likely, and its not something I dispute with you.

EEEK - why do doctors enter the profession ????

How about dentists and the PRSI changes.

Doctors hardly talk healthcare reform and best ways to spend the budget.

emtrgnmb wrote: »

I do not deny the Primary Care / GP system is not well executed in Ireland.

I find this a bit unbelieveable and it implies doctors have no say in execution of healthcare and its resourses



"GPs are not working toward the best interests of their patients for the reasons stated", for the reasons you stated I neither agree or disagree with you in totality.

But GPs as a whole can't be branded as a malicious group, only working for financial gain, and I can assure you this is not the case.

I think at some point doctors and nurses and other medical professions are looked at as being very well paid and looking out for their own interests.

So what should people believe of the money pit that is the Irish healthcare system.

A quiet one

Novella wrote: »

In all fairness, these people do get phenomenal points in the Leaving Cert and go to college for seven years.

As the advert might say:

Good Leaving Cert results...........................................................*€5000
Medical Doctorate.......................................................................€30,000
Natural academic abilities............................................................................Priceless.

(* made up due to cluelessness)

This leaves 2 questions :

1) Should one get paid for merely having a qualification, or paid for work done at a level of remuneration which reflects that investment and value?

The answer to the question 'What do GPs do" according to the OP example is; Make money. (apart from keep you waiting and asking questions {Tsk? tsk!} and then fobbing you off)

2) Was the doctor in question overcharged for his Doctorate given that communication skills were evidentially not included in the educational package.

Various conditions share symptoms and sometimes time tells them apart. Answers to questions are part of the discovery process. But merely "come back if it gets serious"
"Sorry to hear he died. Hope it wasn't anything serious" springs to mind.

A second opinion might be an idea.
The OP should chalk it down to experience, which, like a educational qualification, can be quite costly.
And as others have suggested make sure the purpose for the next appointment to understood before hand.

CDfm

I know I am being critical -but I have a great GP and it took a while to find her.

emtrgnmb

This has raised an interesting point, I hear a lot of people complain about GPs, and summarise the normal GP visit as:

Attend for appointment...wait to see Doctor
Get into see Doctor
Explain problem
He/She asks a few questions
Listens to chest or "does as little as possible" or "does not listen"
Gives prescription, or reassures it is nothing to worry about...
€50/60 and Next patient please!

I think we have addressed surgery waits, which are quite often due to triage of patients, or a busy list, it’s an unfortunate reality of healthcare in Ireland, you always seem to have to wait, no one likes waiting so of course this will upset people. There is not an awful lot that can be done about it either. I suspect waiting is not isolated to Ireland. One answer would be to see less patients in surgery hours, to ensure you get to see the ones that are there on time, but then the waiting time for an appointment will double...

I think most a lot of people begrudge going into the GP regarding some problem and being sent on our with just reassurance or advice, people, want and quite often demand something for their money, a prescription, a referral, an investigation or test, which is clinically not indicated and only a waste of the patients time and money. But people genuinely get upset leaving a GP without something to show for it, I have done so myself in the past. But in reality, research has shown quite often prescriptions for antibiotics for instance, are given because when a patient is advised to take a standard over the counter painkiller/temperature reducer they become irate, and demand a prescription, so the doctor gives one, almost under duress, advising that you only fill the prescription of you don’t get better in X amount of days. An awful lot of the time prescriptions for antibiotics are not necessary, the patient had some viral infection, a cold, which antibiotics cannot kill. Your own immune system sorts out a common virus like a cold. It does however lead to further antibiotic resistance, and hence the development of superbugs....

This is why quite often, if you go to your GP, even with a bad cold or sore throat, they do not prescribe antibiotics, they give you the best possible management of a cold, drink fluids, rest, take an over the counter remedy for symptoms. Not an awful lot to show for €50, but the best thing for you, the patient.

People sometimes seem upset also, that a consultation only lasts a few minutes. If this is all the time required to make a diagnosis, and plan for it, give advice, prescription etc, then what about it, I don’t know any doctor that would refuse to answer any further questions or address any other issues while in the consultation. I think sometimes, people feel rushed, perhaps by the doctor, perhaps by themselves, and are sometimes a bit intimidated? And are happy to leave the surgery but then remember some things they could have asked or got checked. And I can appreciate how they may be a bit p****d off when they hand over €50 and think they could have got better value for money...so why not ring and ask to speak to your doctor if you have concerns.

CDfm, there are many reasons Doctors were motivated to study medicine, I suspect some may be motivated by money, but not money primarily.

I'm not really prepared to defend the system as such. Buy I don’t think GPs are a bunch of nasty, rude, inconsiderate, money grabbers, as they have been depicted by some. There really are some terrific GPs out there, selfless people, who work for their patients, of course there will be some poorer performers among them, like any job.

If your GP happends to be one, get a new one!

A happy, safe and peaceful Christmas to ye all!

Mailman

Wrong answer, try again.
Suggest looking for the cause not the symptom.
The symptom is the disgruntled patient.

Dr Galen

Mailman wrote: »

Wrong answer, try again.
Suggest looking for the cause not the symptom.
The symptom is the disgruntled patient.

no

it's pretty close to the right answer. At least it offers some suggestions as to what could be improved instead of boring vitriol and over the top rhetoric.

Some of the points you've made are totally out of kilter with the reality of the situation with regard to Irish primary care provision. When i see posts like yours I often wonder a) is this person believing all of this or b) has this person had such a bad experience that it colours everything they say.

To suggest that GP's (as a group) are not interested in working for the benefit of their patients etc is pure nonsense. We all know, that there are some ****e GP's out there. Same way there are ****e plumbers, taxi drivers, solictors etc etc. Tarring a whole grouping in this way is overly simplistic and wrong.

Problems exist for sure, I'd not ever try and say there wasn't, but to the extent your suggesting? Definitely not

Mailman

I'll stop tarring them as a group when I start seeing some GPs charging less than 30euro for a 5 minute consultation.
The ability of these primary care providers to escalate their prices incrementally in unison over the last decade was jarring to say the least.

CDfm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Some of the points you've made are totally out of kilter with the reality of the situation with regard to Irish primary care provision.

Physician heal ........the health service :pac:

Dr Galen

prices rose across the whole economy over the past 10 years. GP's are no different to that. The costs involved in running a practice also no doubt rose. As costs in the real economy drop I think we can expect GP's (among other services) to drop in line with this.

The obsession that exists with the time spent in a surgery is part of the problem. When a doctor see's so many patients, and has had the training that they have had, diagnosis doesn't have to take 3 hours and 14 blood tests. For the majority of the patients visiting a GP, the illness they have presented with is going to be mild, eventhough the patient might feel as if they are close to death. Once the appropriate course of medical action is taken, who cares if it only took 6 mins to get there?

Dr Galen

CDfm wrote: »

Physician heal ........the health service :pac:

well instead of allowing the situation where there are approx 800 Grade 8 Admin staff in the HSE with apparently feck all to do, your suggestion as a way to improve the health service is a good one.

Believe me when i say that you will find few of any people working in the frontline services with any love or respect for the administrative behemoth that employs them. By letting the right clinical people get in there and run the service we could see a much more patient focussed service in a fairly short space of time.

Mailman

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

prices rose across the whole economy over the past 10 years. GP's are no different to that. The costs involved in running a practice also no doubt rose. As costs in the real economy drop I think we can expect GP's (among other services) to drop in line with this.

The obsession that exists with the time spent in a surgery is part of the problem. When a doctor see's so many patients, and has had the training that they have had, diagnosis doesn't have to take 3 hours and 14 blood tests. For the majority of the patients visiting a GP, the illness they have presented with is going to be mild, eventhough the patient might feel as if they are close to death. Once the appropriate course of medical action is taken, who cares if it only took 6 mins to get there?

You're trying to explain this away with cost pushed inflation and I just don't buy it. Doctor's who owned their own practices with no rent to pay pushed up their prices in unison with all the others.
There is a cartel in operation.

CDfm

Whats A Grade 8 and if you fired them all would the situation improve.

Would I get the dental benefit back??

Dr Galen

so your saying that you don't believe the fact that we had a high cost economy over the past 10 years had an effect on the GPs of the country?

Taking one other point from your post: How many GPs do you think there are out there, that pay no rent on their premises and have no mortgage type payments to make?

Dr Galen

CDfm wrote: »

Whats A Grade 8

a very well paid pen pusher


and if you fired them all would the situation improve.

probably

Would I get the dental benefit back??

doubtful tbh, i think we'd save quite a bit but not enough to make that much of a difference

in red CDfm

emtrgnmb

Mailman wrote: »

You're trying to explain this away with cost pushed inflation and I just don't buy it. Doctor's who owned their own practices with no rent to pay pushed up their prices in unison with all the others. There is a cartel in operation.

The overheads for running a GP practice will of course have increased.
The insurance for premises and practice, and the doctors own clinical insurance is quite a burden.
The surgery also has to employ other clinical staff, such as registered nurses.
Disposal of clinical waste and confidential waste.
Utility bills increased alongside household utility.
Just some bills which will have increased over the last 10 years....

Mailman

http://www.lkshields.ie/htmdocs/publications/newsletters/update19/update19_09.htm

interesting search for the keywords "competition authority" and IMO.

Self-regulation is no regulation.
GPs are not automatically pillars of society.

Mailman

I'm not a solitary voice.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1216/doctors.html

Mailman

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=16610

Mailman

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

As costs in the real economy drop I think we can expect GP's (among other services) to drop in line with this.

Not according to this
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=15914

Government reduces medical payments so GPs keep or increase charges to non-medical card holders.

CDfm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

in red CDfm

MM got all christmasy - shucks - Im choked.

bob50

There is the other option.......... people go the their local A&E with colds flu minor sprains etc where there is a charge of 100E but some people never pay it

fonecrusher1

GP's are useless. 50 euro for a 'consultation' is disgusting.

A GP's textbook response to something they're not familiar with (as in they dont have a clue whats wrong with you); "Hmmm....(scratches chin).....if it gets very bad go to the hospital". Neeeexxxxt.

They spend years becoming a doctor, pretending they want to help people then get a cushy little number chatting to old folks with nasty coughs.

Its no wonder people are waiting till they get really sick till they splash out on a visit to their local GP.:rolleyes:

CDfm

Its difficult to find comparative healthcare costs between Ireland and other countries but here is an interesting article.

Unter a joint agreement between Ireland and the UK -we bill them and they US for Healthcare of Pensioners and the Irish costs are almost 3 times those of the UK and the Tories say its a con.

So are our costs so massively different ??

However, the Tories said government figures showed that while the UK received just £2,606 a year per pensioner, Ireland got almost three times with £7,457 per pensioner.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/148133/Tories-slam-Irish-health-funding/

bob50

Fonecrusher your bang on about GPs they are Useless they are mostly just referal offices to hospital specialists if have anthing more serious than colds fluu, sick notes But not before they get money out of you. I think the time of being interested in their patients is long gone.

irish_bob

Ebbs wrote: »

In fairness the 65 euro isnt that steep for the level of training etc they do.

Some doctors have to pay back their near 30k+ loans they took out to go into medicine. The day to day runnings are also rather high, insurance, union costs, joining 101 associations to say that you are fully qualified, getting assessed annually, learning new practices, a secutary, cleaning etc of the facilities, etc

I am by no means saying they are not making a killed, but it is very costly for most doctors. Most doctors are still filthy rich despite the costs and fair play to them. People with far lower intellegence and a far less grusome jobs get paid alot more and extort people for mundane services...while they extort people to make them live longer.

As for having to refer you, they dont usually stock large x-ray machines or the other equipment needed to properly look at your liver etc. Most organs such as livers, kidneys require a specialist who has done 7 years of doctoring plus studied one of the systems.

what loans , 3rd level is free in ireland , doctors are incredibly well paid in ireland due to the fact that thier proffesion is highly regulated , same with the dental proffesion

CDfm

irish_bob wrote: »

what loans , 3rd level is free in ireland , doctors are incredibly well paid in ireland due to the fact that thier proffesion is highly regulated , same with the dental proffesion

i suppose the loans are given to enjoy a nice lifestyle and secured against future high earnings

well if they pay for that they should pay for their training

whadabouchasir

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

A GP's textbook response to something they're not familiar with (as in they dont have a clue whats wrong with you); "Hmmm....(scratches chin).....if it gets very bad go to the hospital". Neeeexxxxt.

But they have to refer you to hospiatal if they think that you need further tests or treatment.A G.P is hardly going to do open heart surgery on you in his office now is he?.A G.P's basic function is to decide if you are ill or not,find out what is wrong with you and then advise you on the best course of action.

fonecrusher1

whadabouchasir wrote: »

But they have to refer you to hospiatal if they think that you need further tests or treatment.A G.P is hardly going to do open heart surgery on you in his office now is he?.A G.P's basic function is to decide if you are ill or not,find out what is wrong with you and then advise you on the best course of action.

I dont care what you say. You can try to justify this farce till your blue in the face. 50/55 euro for a little chat with your local GP is a disgrace whatever way you cut it.

I have huge respect for proper doctors.

pickarooney

Clearly, as regards charges, the problem lies more with the system than with the individual practitioners. While €50-60 euros for 10 minutes work (a simplistic breakdown, but exactly what it appears to the patient) seems fair from the doctor's point of view, it's savagely high for a patient and should be heavily subsidised. The problem is of course where the money should come from to put in place a working healthcare system.

What I really take issue with is, and this is not unique to Irish GPs by any means, doctor's giving appointments in the full knowledge that they will not respect the time given. It inevitably leads to annoyed patients missing time off work (a doctor's visit can easily run into hundreds of euros when you have to miss a whole morning to hang around in a germ-riddled waiting room) and left feeling that they're being severely short changed (a 10 minute visit is fine if you've been waiting for 5 but when you've been there for two hours it's not).

I think this (dishonest appointment system) is what leaves patients with the impression that they are being disrespected moreso than the time or quality of advice afforded them or the fees charged and is something that could so easily be improved, to the benefit of everyone. There is no sense or logic to the way appointments are handled so if they can't be arsed doing it properly they should at least be honest and run their surgeries on a first-come, first-served basis.

And get some decent reading material! Honestly, would a tenner a month on a few magazines really kill you?