Prime Time (w)Bankers

Saadyst

Riskymove, your arguments really do seem intellectually disingenuous - are you telling me you can't see why it is totally wrong for a politician, never mind a minister, to be taking loans that haven't gone through the proper procedure?

It's not just on the execs or whoever at the bank - senior members of the government (I would extend this to all civil servants, but one step at a time), have a duty to act and behave beyond reproach and to have the highest standards for ethics. ESPECIALLY when it comes to money. Are you honestly saying people as powerful as ministers are so stupid that they don't know that their loan is not going through the proper procedures?

I'm not Irish, I've only moved over relatively recently. I can't help but laugh with disbelief at what a number the people in power here have pulled over the Irish people. I still can't believe it sometimes.

And if you are not being disingenuous - then don't be too lax when it comes to your leaders. Don't look the other way, don't let them away with it because it was only a few hundred thousand Euro - hold them to account. Let them and their successors know that this is not acceptable, and that you demand and require better. If that's too much for them to handle, then they should step down and let other people step in their place - one thing I DO know from living here the short time I have, is that there is no shortage of right minded patriotic people in this country.

koplegend

Saadyst wrote: »

Riskymove, your arguments really do seem intellectually disingenuous - are you telling me you can't see why it is totally wrong for a politician, never mind a minister, to be taking loans that haven't gone through the proper procedure?

It's not just on the execs or whoever at the bank - senior members of the government (I would extend this to all civil servants, but one step at a time), have a duty to act and behave beyond reproach and to have the highest standards for ethics. ESPECIALLY when it comes to money. Are you honestly saying people as powerful as ministers are so stupid that they don't know that their loan is not going through the proper procedures?

I'm not Irish, I've only moved over relatively recently. I can't help but laugh with disbelief at what a number the people in power here have pulled over the Irish people. I still can't believe it sometimes.

And if you are not being disingenuous - then don't be too lax when it comes to your leaders. Don't look the other way, don't let them away with it because it was only a few hundred thousand Euro - hold them to account. Let them and their successors know that this is not acceptable, and that you demand and require better. If that's too much for them to handle, then they should step down and let other people step in their place - one thing I DO know from living here the short time I have, is that there is no shortage of right minded patriotic people in this country.

The thing about this is most people have fallen for policymakers line that public sector wages are too high so they have to justify any crap that comes from Gov. They are unable to see beyond this.
They will come up with some watery reason for validating the scandalous larceny thats taken place between gov, bankers et al., excellently synopsised last night on Prime Time.

Walk on!!

Riskymove

Saadyst wrote: »

Riskymove, your arguments really do seem intellectually disingenuous - are you telling me you can't see why it is totally wrong for a politician, never mind a minister, to be taking loans that haven't gone through the proper procedure?

wrong? a word with many meanings

inappropriate? probably

inadvisable? definetely

legal issue? no i dont see that

at the end of the day, he took out a mortgage which he is repaying

he didnt default, he has not had anything written off

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

legal issue? no i dont see that

actually as someone on askeaboutmoney noted

they did break the law

they have to ask for id (passport) when doing what they did

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

actually as someone on askeaboutmoney noted

they did break the law

they have to ask for id (passport) when doing what they did

not to keep repeating myself but I presuem that's a legal issue for the bank and no the customer

Seamonster

I am Irish but living in Spain and watched the programme online last night. I can understand the level of hatred towards FF, the (w)bankers and most of the ´Golden Circle´involved in NAMA, which is basically the biggest daylight robbery in our countries history. These people make The Monk look like Father Dougle. To be honest, the main reason why I live in Spain is because I have been lucky enough to get out of Ireland for as long as possible. It´s a depressing, corrupt, badly managed and expensive sh*thole and these knobs have made sure that it will stay like this for a long time. I arrived here last year and I am in no hurry back. I don´t like to think like this because I love being Irish, I just couldn´t stand it anymore, no work, more tax, more crime, ........the list goes on, Mary Harney mis-diagnosing cancer victims still has her job. We are one of the only countries with a transport system that hasn´t been integrated - why? - too much money to be made. Housing estates flooded and built on water plains in the middle of nowhere with no transport - why? Evil gangsters like Frank Dunlop were creaming it in. The M50 still looking like a bomb hit it - why? draconian planning departments. Now finally, teachers being sacked, middle-income earners being raped for a few Euro while all the banking executives get to walk (Well fly in their corporate jets) away, their ego-driven business deals gone pear-shaped and the poor of Ireland have to stump up the bill. It´s comical. If I opened a butchers for example and it failed, could I ask the government to reduce the wages of the innocent to get a massive bail-out? DOUBT IT. The bottom line is, our country has been, since the Celtic Tiger, slowly destroyed by Fianna Fail. Now it´s ruined, it´s going to get worse, the rich are sitting pretty still and principles, tradition, morals and compassion are ¨With O´Leary in the Grave¨. For now, my priorities are enjoying the sun, lots of work, cheap living and a hope that Ireland can be a place to be proud of again.........hasta luego amigos...........

jmayo

maxximus wrote: »

The real culprits , not the public sector. How the fcuk neary et al are not in jail is shocking.

Ehh actually neary was a state employee for probably all his life, he was a central banker for most if not all of his working life.
Anyway it doesn't matter he and his banking circle jerk buddies royally screwed us all.

fricatus wrote: »

That basatrd Fitzpatrick refusing to give an interview and coming across as all hurt - "don't I deserve a right to privacy?"

No you fcuking DON'T you arrogant fcuking TURD. We taxpayers will be paying for your hubris and your mistakes for 20 years. Hopefully we'll see you up in front of a judge soon, and then being led off in gang irons to spend the rest of your fcuking life behind bars like that other crook, Made-off.

I was hoping Oonagh Smyth would give him a little help down the concrete steps.

Basatrd!!! :mad:

Even though I can't stand the man, I don't think we should single him out.

It is too convenient for the others if he carries the entire can.
You already see how he is being fed to the wolves as a scapegoat so that the rest can rest easy.
Drumm, his lapdog knew damm well what he was doing.
Anyone connected with the DDDA (mark my words this is greatest cesspit of the high, migthy and the slimy of Irish development, banking and politics) have a lot of questions to answer.

Fingleton for all his years was cosing up to public representatives, journalists and the like while at the same time screwing the ordinary customers.
How IN managed to get into such a hole with development loans is criminal.

Neary, O'Reilly (never forget this bast*** that hung McErlean out to dry about AIB overcharging), Hurley, the dept of finance backend boyos for doing sweet damm all.

McGreevey (who has to be one of the most arrogant f**king cnuts on two feet about his lax regulation and how could anyone forsee it shi*e), Ahern and Clowen are massively to blame for creating and inflating the bubble.
In any other country they would be in hiding nevermind flogging sh**e books and representing our state. :mad:

Then add in the likes of Sheehy, Goggins et al and the guys in all the other banks. They all ramped up their own banks lending to compete with madness over in Anglo and IN.
Remember how Sheehy and Goggins salaries went through the roof.
Oh and don't forget the stockbrokers in Davy and Goodbodys.

As I said last week on another thread concerning Honohan's idea of setting up an equiry, we already know who are at fault for the entire system collapsing.
Of course we don't know the complete ins and outs, but I don't want enquiry where we find the truth after 10 years, but no one fries.
After all that is the norm for dear old Ireland.

I want legal cases where some people end up slopping out with the likes of Anto from the Crumlin drug gang and the "ever so respectful of women" bouncer from Listowel.

Failing that I think we will have a serious incident where one of the above gentlemen meets a newly pauperised disgruntled taxpayer, but this time they don't get to drive a way in a black passat :rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

Riskymove wrote: »

wrong? a word with many meanings

inappropriate? probably

inadvisable? definetely

legal issue? no i dont see that...

But wrong. Wrong in a very simple and important way: everybody in a public position should, in all matters, be alert to the possibility of conflict of interest. If a person in public life gets advantageous treatment -- even if it is only a matter of fast-tracking something -- then the question "is this because of my public position?" should be asked. If the answer is yes, the advantage should be refused.

This might sound sanctimonious, but it shouldn't. It should be the standard by which people in public roles measure themselves.

I know a few individuals who apply those standards, and a lot who don't.

mike65

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1063007

Drumpot

I didnt see the primetime show . . While it no doubt had some startling "facts" or bits of juicy storys that made us all feel disgusted (from what bits I have heard about it), fact is that our politicians did no less (in MOST cases) to what other people were entitled to.

I happen to know that in certain professions you could get over 100% mortgages. In many cases people were given mortgages that were actually based on future income (what you will prob earn when qualified etc) as opposed to what they were on. . If that was discussed last night, fair enough . . If it wasnt . . Why not ?

Ok . . So the issue of politicians having influence over legislation is an issue and I agree that morally its just plain wrong . . I just think it was systemic of the nature of how the financial services industry was run and would of been run irrespective of this piece of information. .

Politicians are simply the "in" crowd to attack . . I generally look at the opposite to "mob rule" because mobs dont think or act coherently. . A country run by a mob is a country that wont last long . .

Primetime so often exposes some awful scandals that we end up paying for. But I feel it opts for populist "education" as opposed to actually impartially informing people and discussing the issues in a constructive manner.

Some can say its there to get the ratings . . Well why am I paying a licence fee to a "national broadcaster" so they can give the country a one dimensional view of a particularly important topic to the nation ?

Typical show on primetime -

• Binge culture in Ireland - Blame the government
• Banks corrupt in Ireland - Blame the government
• Rogue Builders in Ireland - Blame the builders and the government

When do the people of the country actually get any blame ? Of course, thats not a popular thing to do . .

The most basic rehabilitation of somebody who has a problem they cannot control or feel they are slaves to, is by accepting responsibility for their actions and for their role in their problems.

The way I see it, a majority of people have everybody else to blame for their woes . . Primetime simply does a labour party on it and jumps on whatever will get them the most hits at any given time.

In truth, if I ever watch primetime . Its for entertainment, not education. . Like the news media that people love to quote on boards.ie and in general without realising that news media select facts and figures TO SUIT THEIR OWN POLITICAL AGENDA'S. If you read or hear something from a news media of any sorts, its up to you to either believe it or properly educate yourself on a topic. Problem is too many in this country (and others to be fair) just accept what they hear as FACT . .

If we ever want to be a better, fairer country, we have to grow up as a nation. Dont accept what we hear. Question it, try to educate ourselves better. Dont accept that, "well I didn't vote FF" cop out, do more if you genuinely feel that somebody else could do better.

The country is run by the government it votes in, whether a coalition or not.

The saying goes "a government mirrors its people" and "you get the government you deserve" which I believe is a pink elephant that everybody avoids when understandably attacking those very people elected by its people. Prevention is better then cure, if we were an adult nation (if we grew up) and collectively accepted responsibility for whats happened, I believe we would collectively get out of this mess quicker . .

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't think you understand what destroyed our economy. I will summarise it for you:

1. An incompetent financial regulator
2. Politicians and the media encouraging home ownership
3. An economically illiterate public panic buying houses no matter what their price
4. Investors buying multiple properties they could not afford
5. Banks being foolish and greedy
6. Infinite cheap credit

A few loans to politicians is not what destroyed our economy.

So get off your ****ing high horse. :rolleyes:

no i certainly wont get off my high horse
You fail to see the link. A few loans to a few politicians sure tis grand what harm. But sure then the politicians tell the regulator to lay off your only a hindrance to business. This here housing boom its a new paradigm. And all you list takes its lead from the small things

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

no i certainly wont get off my high horse
You fail to see the link. A few loans to a few politicians sure tis grand what harm. But sure then the politicians tell the regulator to lay off your only a hindrance to business. This here housing boom its a new paradigm. And all you list takes its lead from the small things

As I said , I agree in principle with your moral standpoint on that issue, but I believe you are being too naieve in thinking that a government will base its entire financial regulation based on "a couple of loans" it gets. Especially , considering they would of been able to get 100% loans anyways through normal procedures. What you are talking about is , in essence, small change that you feel has impacted on how regulation was sheriffed in the country . .

Look at the US . . Do you think the US president based his regulation on a couple of handy loans he got ? (or do you think it was a coincidence) I know people who have three loans (god knows how they got them), but we wont hear about them because they have no standing in the public media.

Sometimes its easier to have a baddy to blame then accept the harsh reality. . We have subscribed to a capitalist system. . Its not based on whats fair. Its based on how much money can be made. .

People forget the money that was used in Benchmarking was mainly from taxes generated from house sales. This is what WE (the nation) wanted . . At what stage does the "nanny" state stop ? When do WE take responsibility for what we all did during the Celtic Tiger .

The initiative to be lax on regulation was a financial decision based on a strategy to generate revenue and to get people houses (remember people wanted to own their own house). The truth is that less regulation is viewed in a positive light in the world of capitalism. In 10 years or so , when this has all blown over, regulation will be loosened again . .

It appears Primetime simply helped some people put 2 and 2 together and they got 10 . .

transylman

nesf wrote: »

Nah, I just don't vilify them to the same extent that other people do. I don't have much faith that a FG/Lab Government would have been able to resist the temptations that come with presiding over a booming economy.

Yeah, except FF were indulging themselves long before the booming economy came along.

You do accept that there are some extremely important decisions to be made over the next year or two as to how these billions of debt are going to be repaid, and that it is important to have people in power that are capable of acting in the best interests of the country, without worrying if they are going to hurt their developer and banker friends.

P. Breathnach

Drumpot wrote: »

... The initiative to be lax on regulation was a financial decision based on a strategy to generate revenue and to get people houses (remember people wanted to own their own house). The truth is that less regulation is viewed in a positive light in the world of capitalism. In 10 years or so , when this has all blown over, regulation will be loosened again . ...

I don't disagree, but I wonder about the phrase "financial decision". I think it was not just financial in the limited sense that you imply. It enabled a range of activities that happened to include housing, and the housing component provided the government with bucketfuls of money -- but the virtually unregulated banking/finance sector was more than an elaborate home finance scheme.

But the interesting word is "decision". I agree there was a decision to regulate very lightly, to the point of being almost imperceptible. Who decided? The only person to have been consistently blamed is Patrick Neary. I think that is far from just. Yes, it is clear that he thought he should interfere minimally, but I think he was doing what was expected of him. Who expected that of him? There has been no queue of people coming forward to say they were advocates of light-touch regulation, and that Patrick Neary's approach was influenced by what they said or what they clearly expected. But I am pretty sure they exist in that nexus of politicians, administrators, and interest groups that exists in all major dimensions of public life. It's the way we are governed.

Don't expect the Indo to out them. It takes a bit more effort than bashing public service workers, or even an individual public servant like Patrick Neary. And it might emerge that some of the individuals responsible are not the sort of people that the Indo likes to have a pop at.

strathspey

I was chatting with a colleague yesterday and he hit the nail on the head. Ireland is a deliquent and corrupt country and always has been. However, within Westrern Europe, the Irish are not alone in this display of historical ineptness. They are joined by the affectionately named PIIGS, these are Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain. And what do they all have in common with the exception of Greece, but this difference being only marginal? They're all Catholic. I think sociologist should delve deeper into how Catholism has not only held back these countries to the extent that they are always recipients of EU bailouts but also how it has upheld the status quo in promoting a hierachy of haves and have nots.

strathspey

transylman wrote: »

.....it is important to have people in power that are capable of acting in the best interests of the country, without worrying if they are going to hurt their developer and banker friends.

I think whoever gets into power will have the luxury of not making descions, but won't have the luxury of 'worrying'. Ireland will owe so much money to the EU, that you can be sure thay they will be dictating future budgets.....and quite rightly. Future governmants will only be responsible for the presentation and delivery.

Seth Brundle

Irish Nationwide launches McCreevy loan probe
http://www.breakingnews.ie/text/ireland/eymhsnmhmhql/

What are the odds that nothing will come of this?

zootroid

There is a lot of (justifiable) anger within this thread.

Why aren't we doing anything about it?

In the infrastructure forum, there was uproar when it was reported that a section of the M9 would not be opened until the new year when it was already completed. People began to contact various TDs, and the decision was reversed. (I'm not saying this was solely down to the members of boards contacting their TDs, but just illustrating how the general public had the decision changed as they were outraged).

We should be doing the same. We should be letting our elected representatives know that what has gone on is not acceptable, and how disgusted we are. Our silence will just give them free reign to continue to act as they have been, with the country's interests second to their own, and those of their friends.

I am outraged by what has been going on. It makes me despair for the country, to the point of seriously considering emigrating as I'm not sure I want to live in the society that exists in this country. All of this dirt is coming out in drips through the media, and yet I am not seeing anybody being held to account, nor have I seen anything done to ensure that this will never happen again!!

Things have to change. They must change. I will be writing a few letters to some select TDs to state my anger and disgust to what happened, and demand measures be put in place to ensure it never happens again. I implore you to do the same. If enough people do it, they will take notice. They have to. The decision to open the M9 (albeit a very small and easy decision) is evidence that if enough people speak out, they will listen.

waffleman

I had a look around this forum and the internet and can't find a comprehensive list of the worst offenders in this economic mess and reasons why they should be brought to justice. I know of a few (Fitzpatrick, Neary etc.) but I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm not familiar with. I think it would be good to see a central source where anyone could contribute reasons why people should be jailed and stripped of their assets. Maybe a league table with the worst obviously at the top. I have no faith in the public inquiry system in this country - Bertie might not be setting them up anymore but I'm not sure the format will change much!!

I would start a thread but I doubt it would be allowed to stand. Maybe a website could be created for all to easily access? something with a URL like www.whitecollarcrime.ie/

woodseb

waffleman wrote: »

I had a look around this forum and the internet and can't find a comprehensive list of the worst offenders in this economic mess and reasons why they should be brought to justice. I know of a few (Fitzpatrick, Neary etc.) but I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm not familiar with. I think it would be good to see a central source where anyone could contribute reasons why people should be jailed and stripped of their assets. Maybe a league table with the worst obviously at the top. I have no faith in the public inquiry system in this country - Bertie might not be setting them up anymore but I'm not sure the format will change much!!

I would start a thread but I doubt it would be allowed to stand. Maybe a website could be created for all to easily access? something with a URL like www.whitecollarcrime.ie/

I hope you have a good lawyer if that website goes ahead:p

waffleman

woodseb wrote: »

I hope you have a good lawyer if that website goes ahead:p

yeah just put allegedly at the end of everything.

I would be happy with a webiste containing a list of names and links to all known articles on their shenanigans. Could get more people who maybe wouldnt be that interested up to date on these crooks!

ei.sdraob

waffleman wrote: »

yeah just put allegedly at the end of everything.

I would be happy with a webiste containing a list of names and links to all known articles on their shenanigans. Could get more people who maybe wouldnt be that interested up to date on these crooks!

there is the wikileaks website

heres the section on Ireland > http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Ireland

nothing stopping any potential whistle-blowers using it

Sleepy

Eh, it's seemingly overloaded...

weedfreedomtinp

do the government and banks think the people are going to take this much longer ,,

Spiritoftheseventies

What struck me most is how Irish nationwide so aggresively pursued ordinary people who had defaulted on their loans and then fast tracked loans for the rich. Fair play for Gormley for asking for enquiry. There may be hope for greens yet.

femur61

bayviewclose wrote: »

What struck me most is how Irish nationwide so aggresively pursued ordinary people who had defaulted on their loans and then fast tracked loans for the rich. Fair play for Gormley for asking for enquiry. There may be hope for greens yet.

Yeah, but didn't solicitors make obscene amounts of money from previous enquires. and the Irish are notorious worldwide for their long, costly enquires with no one ever brought to juscice. Johnathon Fisk was on Turbidy a fews back and he said the Irish are renowned for their long enquires. (It was after their enquiry into Kelly's suicide).

Spiritoftheseventies

femur61 wrote: »

Yeah, but didn't solicitors make obscene amounts of money from previous enquires. and the Irish are notorious worldwide for their long, costly enquires with no one ever brought to juscice. Johnathon Fisk was on Turbidy a fews back and he said the Irish are renowned for their long enquires. (It was after their enquiry into Kelly's suicide).

Well i think we need an inquiry after this. This cosy arrangement between bankers and FF (and sure other politicians availed of Irish nationwide deal) has to be exposed. If FF say we shouldn't have an inquiry its the very reason we should. Will be money well spent in my opinion.

gurramok

fricatus wrote: »

That basatrd Fitzpatrick refusing to give an interview and coming across as all hurt - "don't I deserve a right to privacy?"

No you fcuking DON'T you arrogant fcuking TURD. We taxpayers will be paying for your hubris and your mistakes for 20 years. Hopefully we'll see you up in front of a judge soon, and then being led off in gang irons to spend the rest of your fcuking life behind bars like that other crook, Made-off.

I was hoping Oonagh Smyth would give him a little help down the concrete steps.

Basatrd!!! :mad:

That scene was filmed in Charlotte Quay, Ringsend, its right beside me!! I'd say he might have an office rather than a home there or maybe just visiting, its not very posh for a man of his wealth.

Must look out for Seanie now to ahem have a word someday

Spiritoftheseventies

kbannon wrote: »

Irish Nationwide launches McCreevy loan probe
http://www.breakingnews.ie/text/ireland/eymhsnmhmhql/

What are the odds that nothing will come of this?

Paperwork. What paperwork?

AlekSmart

Paperwork. What paperwork?

So true Bayviewclose....The very opportune 9 week lacuna before the Gardai knocked up to Anglo Irish`s HQ gave enough time for the shredders to spin the ESB meter to TurboBoost.....so too for electronic records.

There will never be a "Sean Fitzpatrick led away to begin his Jail term" photo-op because he represents a grouping who are TOO important to fail...