N21 Thread

veryangryman

Less chance of poor judgement on better roads. Safety Safety Safety - you cannot emphasise this point enough. The quality of a good road makes it harder to make such mistakes.

Ive yet to hear of a head on collision on an irish dual carriageway.

Sponge Bob

Plan B, a bit of work around Barnagh in 2012.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/land_deals_for_new_road_close_1_3077363

Haggling over the bog up there with local landowners right now.

The National Roads Authority (NRA) have indicated that funding for the road, which could cost in excess of €5 million, will be available next year. However if deals with land owners cannot be struck ahead of the planned start date of next March, the scheme would need to go through the drawn-out compulsory purchase order (CPO) process, which would see it shelved for at least a year and possibly lose its funding.

If they finish haggling.

The new road will see the construction of a separate carriageway adjacent to the existing N21, which will feature safe slip roads, junctions and stacking lanes, and will remove the dangerous bends of the current road.

More here

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/county_limerick_action_group_supports_road_safety_proposals_1_2910865

spacetweek

Tremelo wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0310/1224291779178.html
Scrapping of N21 road plan welcomed
CÍAN NIHILL

ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS and local landowners in Co Limerick have welcomed the scrapping of a proposed new road between Abbeyfeale and Adare.
...
The new proposed layouts will be displayed in coming weeks in the M20 scheme design office in Gooldshill in Mallow, Co Cork.

Pretty much everything about that article annoys me. I hate the simplistic thinking that groups like PlanBetter have - Road gets built: Bad; Road gets cancelled: Good. And although motorway construction probably did max out budgets for maintenance, this would only have been up to 2010 when they were completed. As for landowners being greenlit to develop along the proposed routes, this will make it more difficult to secure a route in future when the project is inevitably restarted.
Awaiting a change of policy in Limerick/Kerry to "connectivity to public transport" assumes that there is any. Bus-based transport is the ideal solution for areas of the country such as that and reliable bus services cannot exist without investment in roads. Roads aren't just for cars, they improve bus-based public transport too.
And the final barb - Buttevant getting a motorway junction. Providing a multi-million euro interchange at public expense for a one-horse town is not a victory, it's a failure - the triumph of the parish pump.

Quite an array of negative points really!

mk6705

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.394153380616722.92057.159542587411137&type=1

...work appears to have started on the Barnagh re-alignment.

tomflynn

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/HA0028.htm

PL13.HA0028 An Bord Pleanala Order

PROPOSED ROAD DEVELOPMENT: N21 Adare Bypass, consisting of 8.5 kilometres of dual carriageway and associated side roads which will link the N21 National Primary Route to the M20/N20 National Primary Route through the townlands of Garraunboy, Boherbraddagh, Baurnalicka, Finniterstown, Granard, Dunnaman, Beabus, Derryvinnane, Castleroberts, Caherass, Fanningstown and Garranroe, County Limerick.

DECISION
REFUSE TO APPROVE the above proposed road development based on the reasons and considerations hereunder.

REASONS AND CONSIDERATIONS
The proposed N21 Southern Bypass Route for Adare was selected following the finalisation of the route of the proposed M20 Cork-Limerick Motorway. The proposed N21 was designed to intersect with the proposed M20 to the east of Adare.

Having regard to the decision to withdraw the proposed M20 application from the planning process together with uncertainty as to when, or if, any new application in respect of this development may be submitted, the Board considers that the proposed N21 development would, if permitted and constructed, constitute isolated infrastructure, would not represent a coherent approach to the provision of major roads infrastructure and, furthermore, would not have the potential to fulfil the functions envisaged for the Scheme. The proposed development would, therefore, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

My view:
Pending the completion/certainty re: M20, they are probably correct in terms of it being "isolated" and "not have the potential to fulfil the functions envisaged".

In the absence of the M20 the proposal involved a temporary at-grade tie-in to the current N20 at Garranroe/Fanningstown (at the site of the proposed future M20 junction). However, to bypass Adare (again in the absence of the M20) it would have required exiting the M20/N21 at the Attyflin Junction (J4) c. 2km before the end of the dual carriageway, taking the N20 southbound to Garranroe/Finningstown, then taking the (now refused) 8.5 km southern bypass around Adare to the point where it would have rejoined the existing N21 at Garraunboy, west of Adare.

Attyflin junction to Garraunboy c. 10km direct route via Adare
Attyflin junction to Garraunboy c. 13.5km via proposed Adare southern bypass (my estimate).

I'm still of the view that this is a nationally critical bottleneck (at this point, along with only a couple of others). A southern bypass, even if the M20 proceeded, always had the potential to be underutilised. A shorter northern bypass as originally envisaged, to me, makes more sense.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1019/1224325458165.html

Smilerme

An Bord Pleanala reason for rejection is that "it would constitute isolated infrastructure, would not represent a coherent approach to the provision of major roads infrastructutre and furthermore would not have the potential to fulfill the functuions of the Scheme".

So the Board concludes that the scheme functions wouldn't be met. The scheme functions were:

(1) Remove a major bottleneck thereby improving economic efficiency and journey time reliability,

(2) Improve safety for all road users

(3) Divert traffic away from town centre

(4) Improve the town environment for residents, businesses & tourists

(5) Facilitate the expansion of the tourist / retail / industrial sectors in Adare.

A truely daming inditement of the scheme/route if the Board considers those functions couldn't be met. Clearly the Board thought the route didn't work at all.


The Board Direction notes that "The Board was not satisfied that the Route chosen (Blue Route) for bypassing the town was necessarily the optimum solution."

It goes on to state that "should a revised application be made in the future, consideration might be given to a further assessment of alternative routes"

So clearly the Board thought that the wrong route was chosen. Adare needs a bypass so LCC should just have run with their previously chosen route in 2005 & it would be built & in operation at this stage.

road_high

This is awful news...Was stuck outside Adare thurs eve coming form the Limerick city side on the N21. After 10+ mins going nowhere, I like many others, just turned around and headed along a few back roads and out the other side.
It's incredible such a vital piece of infrastructure could not be delivered. I'd say it's ahuger hinderance to investment in the Kerry/Limerick areas. Defo the worst bottle kneck left in Ireland.

Chris_5339762

Sorry, Claregalway is worse

New Ross is third on the list.

Limerick74

Smilerme wrote: »

An Bord Pleanala reason for rejection is that "it would constitute isolated infrastructure, would not represent a coherent approach to the provision of major roads infrastructutre and furthermore would not have the potential to fulfill the functuions of the Scheme".

So the Board concludes that the scheme functions wouldn't be met. The scheme functions were:

(1) Remove a major bottleneck thereby improving economic efficiency and journey time reliability,

(2) Improve safety for all road users

(3) Divert traffic away from town centre

(4) Improve the town environment for residents, businesses & tourists

(5) Facilitate the expansion of the tourist / retail / industrial sectors in Adare.

A truely daming inditement of the scheme/route if the Board considers those functions couldn't be met. Clearly the Board thought the route didn't work at all.


The Board Direction notes that "The Board was not satisfied that the Route chosen (Blue Route) for bypassing the town was necessarily the optimum solution."

It goes on to state that "should a revised application be made in the future, consideration might be given to a further assessment of alternative routes"

So clearly the Board thought that the wrong route was chosen. Adare needs a bypass so LCC should just have run with their previously chosen route in 2005 & it would be built & in operation at this stage.

The 2005 route to the north is a non runner as it crosses the River Maigue SAC. European law doesn't let you impact on a SAC if there is a viable alternate (I.e. the route to the south that the board refused). So enjoy the traffic jam through Adare for the next 10-20 years!

Limerick74

Article in Limerick Leader on the Adare Bypass

lottpaul

Limerick74 wrote: »

Article in Limerick Leader on the Adare Bypass

Thanks for that - good to see the idea hasn't been dropped but realistically you'd have to wonder where the funding etc would be found.
Seems like we'll be enjoying views of Adare for many years to come - surely looking at another route for the bypass means more planning enquiries, impact surveys etc etc?
Not that I was very impressed with the M20/bypass idea anyway -- it wouldn't really have improved things a lot for those of us from Kerry/West Limerick outside of peak congestion times.

Smilerme

With the sothern route knocked down, it seems to me the requirement to consider alternatves before an SAC (special area conservation) can be considered / crossed has now been fulfilled.

So maybe now the shorter, more sensible northern route, can be rechosen. It makes so much sense as LCC previously chose this route as the preferred option in 2005 & spent millions (I've heard €5m) bringing it to the point where they could have published it & applied for planning permission. Unfortunately the decision not to go for it then led to the wasted years we have suffered since then.

Hopefully LCC will get a move on now & go for planning on the northern route ASAP

lottpaul

Travelled to Limerick and back today - first time on the improved road at Barnagh - still not fully completed yet but looks like a much safer, better road. Much longer climbing lane heading to Kerry will help a lot too.

road_high

Just had the unfortunate experience of driving this road again twice this weekend.
It's surely Ireland's most frustrating 2 lane carriageway to make progress on. There is/was a constant stream of 80kmh doodlers for miles on end. No sooner than you get a chance to overtake these morons, there's another few a couple miles up the road. Added to the large traffic volume it's nightmare. Maybe I'm so spoiled now travelling mainly on the new motorways but the N21 does my head in. I'd really hate to travel this daily. The stretch from Abeeyfeale-NewCastlewest-Adare is the one I'm mainly talking about. The road is quite wide in places and I'm sure with a bit of low cost engineering they could throw in a few overtaking lanes or dual carraigeway along parts of it.

Mc Love

Or if you get a chance to overtake, there is oncoming traffic

road_high

So I've heard nothing about the Adare bypass for 18 months now. Is anything ever going to progress? It just sickens me the pathetic pace of delivery of vital infrastructure in this country. Is Limerick in particular in capable of pushing through projects? Apart from the bit of the M7 and M20 around the city, I can't think of a whole lot that was been built. The N24 remains another bad joke.

Cookiemunster

road_high wrote: »

So I've heard nothing about the Adare bypass for 18 months now. Is anything ever going to progress? It just sickens me the pathetic pace of delivery of vital infrastructure in this country. Is Limerick in particular in capable of pushing through projects? Apart from the bit of the M7 and M20 around the city, I can't think of a whole lot that was been built. The N24 remains another bad joke.

The Adare bypass was canned months ago. ABP refused permission for the Southern route as the M20 which it was due to connect into isn't going ahead. It has nothing to do with the local authorities. The Government pulled the funding for the M20 when the recession hit and it never made it before ABP.
As for the N24 again that's upto the government to release funds before the NRA ( not the local authorities) get it through planning etc. None of these will be touched for years due to lack of funding.

Smilerme

What struck me when I read An Bord Pleanala's refusal was the section where they say that if / when LCC reapply for planning permission they should stay away from Fanningstown Castle. I would read this as a criticism of the route chosen by LCC as basically they seem to be saying don't choose that route again.

This should actually help LCCs case to go for the shorter (in fact shortest), most straightforward northern or black route that was chosen twice previously but never applied for planning. As the black route crosses an SAC, under European law LCC need to be able to say all other potential routes are not viable & therefore there is no choice but to cross the SAC. I think this note / comment with the BP decision effectively does that as any other Southern route will run through or too close to Adare Manor & will not be viable for that reason.

So in many ways this decision helps the position for Adare to get a bypass in the future (if when funds become available) as it re-opens the Northern route(s) and means it can be done separately from any motorway to Cork (which realistically wont happen for the next 20 years).

AugustusMinimus

Smilerme wrote: »

So in many ways this decision helps the position for Adare to get a bypass in the future (if when funds become available) as it re-opens the Northern route(s) and means it can be done separately from any motorway to Cork (which realistically wont happen for the next 20 years).

Would be quite hopeful of seeing the M20 back on the table in the life time of the next government. Outside of a number of projects which have already received funding, it is quite high priority.

road_high

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would be quite hopeful of seeing the M20 back on the table in the life time of the next government. Outside of a number of projects which have already received funding, it is quite high priority.

Assuming the next govt will the same one as now, are the local Senior ministers Coveneny and Noonan pushing this?

Deedsie

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/contracts-signed-for-two-limerick-road-projects-657396.html

Mc Love

Where's the Killarney Pole?

ardmacha

Mc Love wrote: »

Where's the Killarney Pole?

At this time on a Friday evening, he's probably in the pub.

BelfastVanMan

ardmacha wrote: »

At this time on a Friday evening, he's probably in the pub.

Ha. Good one. :-)

Can anyone explain what will happen to the seamless merge between the N21 and M20 when both the Adare bypass and M20 are finally built?

Will it become the M20? Will the N21 start at the current onslip at the junction between the N20 and the M20?

veryangryman

This should answer

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m20+adare+bypass+map&espv=2&biw=1680&bih=882&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vTi1VP_EGvHU7AbBvoCQBA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#imgdii=_&imgrc=SvWu0fWWEOkAWM%253A%3Ba3eL_zQR3sELWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fen%252F7%252F73%252FAdare_bypass_update_2009.GIF%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FN21_road_(Ireland)%3B588%3B407

Cookiemunster

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Ha. Good one. :-)

Can anyone explain what will happen to the seamless merge between the N21 and M20 when both the Adare bypass and M20 are finally built?

Will it become the M20? Will the N21 start at the current onslip at the junction between the N20 and the M20?

No one knows where the Adare bypass is going to be situated so that question can't be answered at the minute. The original plan was to have a Northern bypass continue seamlessly from the current N20, but that was replaced with a spur off the new M20 South of Adare. Now apparently that plan is out the window too.

BelfastVanMan

At this rate, this is going to be as confusing as the M2/M22 merge in Northern Ireland!

Chris_5339762

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

At this rate, this is going to be as confusing as the M2/M22 merge in Northern Ireland!

And this beast of a "brave man" junction right after the End Of Motorway chopsticks.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.74063,-6.34479,3a,75y,285.1h,83.69t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1szzVuQTeiCz-fsBIyt3QXdQ!2e0?hl=en

mossieh

i see work has started at the Killarney pole for the next phase of widening between NCW and Barna. Are they planning to add a climbing lane to that section (eastbound) or is it too short? Either way, a welcome improvement.

Limerick74

I see Limerick have updated the Foynes to Limerick web site (foyneslimerick.ie) with public consultation on the 10th & 11th March for the route corridor options.