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The reason the Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme was built WS2 over 2+2 is because the 2+2 was only brought in around that time! The NRA had piloted schemes for th 2+1 and 2+2 around that time. Given the 2+2 has been a success on the N4 Dromod-Rooskey bypass all new schemes will be built 2+2 unless a S2 or HQDC are required.
We know all this Tech 2 - But this is 2010 where we need to get better value for the spend whilst not forgetting safety.
Oncoming Traffic needs to be divided by barriers and overtaking should not be as perilous as it is in Ireland in 2010! Hence 2+2 at least..
How many more head on collisions are needed where drivers wait for an opportune moment to overtake and then realise too late that it's not?
There will be. National secondary routes will be built single carriageway. N7 is a totally different story. The N21 will never reach the traffic levels the N7 has and could potentially reach. Lets remember the M7 links the republics 1st and 3rd largest cities.
That's why 2+2 at about €4 Million a KM is about right - not Motorways at €12million a KM!
Why is the Tullamore bypass single carriageway??!
How much extra would it have cost to have a safer road with 2+2?0 -
Tullamore was signed and started before 2+2 was brought in.0
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Of course everything outside the M50 is a white elephant :rolleyes:, such myopic viewpoints is what has led Ireland to have such unbalanced regional development. Infrastructure is the key to bridging the gap and get balanced regional powershift.
Knock has Ryanair, Aer Lingus and BMI plus a plethora of charters, traffic on all transatlantic routes are down from Dublin and elsewhere, if Aer Lingus could they would scrap the lot of them and stick to flying into full service airports in Europe.
Cork Airport isn't a white elephant. One of the west coast ones wouldn't be if there wasn't one in every major seaboard county. Waterfor was definitely viable pre M9, not so sure now.
Knock has a pissant amount of flights from a few airlines, a limited number of charters, and would not exist without PSO. It was a white elephant at day 1 seeing as Galway already had Carnmore airport at the time.0 -
AFAIK the N23 cross section is narrow single carriageway not WS2
That would strike me as strange, for a few reasons.
For a start, alot of the existing N23 could be considered WS2, depending on your standards.
The KCC plans don't distinguish between S2 and WS2, for example the Limerick road link-in is classified as "Standard S2 with climbing lane".
The amount of land taken for it from the new roundabout looks a little wider than narrow S2.0 -
Compare the S2 climbing lane outside of Castleisland to the section of Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme across from Knockagoshel village. A big difference in width on the driving lane. KCC does distinguish WS2 from S2.
After searching through my emails with the road design engineer who is over the project I found that it is S2 on the N23 section not WS2 and not narrow S2 which I thought it was. See Here:The scheme will have at grade roundabouts at the N23 Killarney road and the N21 Tralee Road. The cross-section between these two roundabouts will be Single Carriageway (S2).0 -
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Yes whatever - S2, WS2, 2+2, I bet the difference in the actual width of the Asphalt/Tar (or K2 to use some mountainous jargon) on the N23 portion is negligible.
The fact here is that the pavement could take 2+2 for little extra cost and safe lives, time and money in the long run.
Why oh why do some people not see this?
The excellent pictures taken by Tech 2 (Thank you) of the 2+2 portion of the Castleisland bypass would show that the width of pavement is no more than any WS2 built in the last 10 years.
All that is different is that there is some stoney rubble on the edge, as has the M50 between Tallaght and Sandyford, as an excuse for a hard shoulder.
To follow through on this - the Abbeyfeale to Castleisland improvements completed in July 2006 are as wide as the 2+2 in these photos!0 -
Yes whatever - S2, WS2, 2+2, I bet the difference in the actual width of the Asphalt/Tar (or K2 to use some mountainous jargon) on the N23 portion is negligible.
The fact here is that the pavement could take 2+2 for little extra cost and safe lives, time and money in the long run.
Why oh why do some people not see this?
S2: 12.3m pavement
WS2: 15.0m pavement
2+2: 16.5m pavement0 -
"veryangryman wrote: »http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0913/rta.html
"I cant help but be sad at stuff like this that happens on a road that has been planned for DC upgrade. Without the recession and such, you can make an argument that the road would have been upgraded by now and these people would still be alive.
More than any paycuts, job losses or lifestyle adjustments that they have caused, this is why bankers need to go to jail and stay there.
This is also due to the do nothing or do it big scenario of the NRA and limerick Co.Co., 20 years ago they improved the road at the top of Barna and stopped instead of continuing on and bypassing NCW on the northern side that would have improved the road then no end just like the Rathkeale bypass.
Now they can not do anything for the next 10 years due to the state the country is in and how many more people will they kill with their do nothing scenario, leaving big lanes inside yellow lines is a disgrace these should be changed to white broken lines and 2+1 inserted straight away to allow traffic to flow and then when all ye geniuses have the country up and running and the celtic tiger back ye can build all those super highways you want0 -
20 years ago it was Limerick County Council on their own, NRA didn't even exist. NRA didn't start planning schemes until ones that went to construction from about '95 onwards.0
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20 years ago it was Limerick County Council on their own, NRA didn't even exist. NRA didn't start planning schemes until ones that went to construction from about '95 onwards.
Well it just goes to show you that the NRA are worse or just as bad as the county councils, why do they think that whats there cannot be improved on without waiting for the super highways to be build, these are only good for passing out all the bad drivers you have in this country, the people that think they have a divine right to drive on the white line at 50 to 80 on a 100 km road with about 2 lanes inside them on their left. Its like the politicians do nothing and the country might improve, do nothing with the roads and when enough people have killed themselves then they will have justification for what they want.0 -
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The NRA are unwilling to spend money upgrading a road that is planned to be bypassed because they'll be slaughted in the local area by the press/opposition councillors/etc for "wasting money". They've thrown a few sticking plasters down (Enfield Bypass comes to mind) but even that is rare.0
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I would have gone along with you 20 years ago, we should have borrowed heavily then build a 3+3 from Cork to Derry and this would have made the country very small.
However now we are broke in very serious trouble and will have the IMF here shortly, so one of these days we will not be able to borrow money to keep the country afloat not to mind building your super 2+2, do you know we are borrowing €60,000,000 per day to feed the country. I am thinking the most of you are young and I do hope you will not have to leave this country to make a living, therfore I urge you to think carefully about what these people are doing in your name especially remembering what went on in the last 10-15 years and try and get them to make good decisions based on value for money and the common good not just the good of the few.
But going back to the N21 and the route these days with traffic decreasing at an alarming rate it does not support a dual carriage from Adare to NCW but if you want to build a dual carriage then they should think about putting this road on the Foynes side of the present N21 and link in the N69 into it. There are many companies in the Foynes Askeaton area including the Foynes port and these need very good roads to link them to the national grid, where they are proposing putting the road has not got the same volume of companies at all. However what these people (NRA and Co. Councils) want to do is to build another major road along the Shannon in the future, (as Limerick Co. Council said when asked why they short listed the final three routes and not taken Foynes into brief "FOYNES PORT WAS NOT IN THE DESIGN BRIEF AND THEREFORE WAS NOT CONSIDERED") this to me is a terrible waste of money,0 -
-The cost difference for 2+2 is negligable
-The presence of a central barrier is an inherent deterrant to ribbon development along the route, protecting it from needing future upgrades
-If we don't build at least 2+2, we'll be upgrading it before we've finished paying for it.0 -
What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??
All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.
That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.
This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.
We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.0 -
What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??
All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.
That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.
This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.
We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.
Defniniton of Dual Carraigeway:
Dual carriageway - a highway divided down the middle by a barrier that separates traffic going in different directions.
Definition of Single Carraigeway:
A single carriageway (British English) or undivided highway (North American English) is a road with no physical separation — central reservation (British English) or median (North American English) — between opposing flows of traffic.
Therefore, 2+2 is, with good reason a type of dual carraigeway. It doesn't have to be motorway standard you know.0 -
What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??
All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.
That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.
This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.
We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.
I am afraid the vested interests are the people pulling the NRA strings just like the developers, builders of the last 15 years, they got planning permission to build houses in the middle of nowhere where they were not needed now whether you believe or not you and your children will be paying back for them unless of course you want to default on our NATIONAL DEBT, the people who builds these roads are the people who benefit most from the NRA.
You are not listening to me I have no problem with building good roads I think they are vital for the country I have a problem with where they are build, I think the route should be chosen very carefully to take into account all the things that matter not just the money that these developers can make out of them, for too long we in this country have sat back and watched ourselves being taken for a ride by FF and its vested interest friends developers, builders, bankers, road builders and big business all in their own interests not the interests of all the people in this little island.
Please do not insult me by giving me lines like “This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios. “
I have no interest in petrol stations although the NRA should have when they build the motorways now they have no petrol stations and nowhere to go to the toilet and the AA are very busy rescuing people that have run out of petrol, now there is an opportunity for you to set up a service area off the Ms, watch and see how the NRA will pay over the odds with your money if you are working to have these service areas retrofitted, that will be another report from the controller and auditor general next year just like how we spent €33,000,000 on advisor on how we fix the banks, €9,000,000 going to a firm of solicitors in Dublin I wonder who were they friends with in FF. All I want to see is your and everybody elses money spent properly to give us value for money by putting good roads where they are needed not where the vested interests want them.
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lordofthedung wrote: »I am afraid the vested interests are the people pulling the NRA strings just like the developers, builders of the last 15 years, they got planning permission to build houses in the middle of nowhere where they were not needed now whether you believe or not you and your children will be paying back for them unless of course you want to default on our NATIONAL DEBT, the people who builds these roads are the people who benefit most from the NRA.
You are not listening to me I have no problem with building good roads I think they are vital for the country I have a problem with where they are build, I think the route should be chosen very carefully to take into account all the things that matter not just the money that these developers can make out of them, for too long we in this country have sat back and watched ourselves being taken for a ride by FF and its vested interest friends developers, builders, bankers, road builders and big business all in their own interests not the interests of all the people in this little island.
Please do not insult me by giving me lines like “This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios. “
I have no interest in petrol stations although the NRA should have when they build the motorways now they have no petrol stations and nowhere to go to the toilet and the AA are very busy rescuing people that have run out of petrol, now there is an opportunity for you to set up a service area off the Ms, watch and see how the NRA will pay over the odds with your money if you are working to have these service areas retrofitted, that will be another report from the controller and auditor general next year just like how we spent €33,000,000 on advisor on how we fix the banks, €9,000,000 going to a firm of solicitors in Dublin I wonder who were they friends with in FF. All I want to see is your and everybody elses money spent properly to give us value for money by putting good roads where they are needed not where the vested interests want them.
So we dont need a good road between Limerick and Tralee (and hence from Dublin, Galway etc via Limerick to Tralee)?
This is just nonsense.
As you should know, the NRA no longer build the 2 lane standard road type on National primary routes because is it less safe than a divided road. A 2+2 road just re-allocates the road space so there are 2 lanes on each side, allowing safe overtaking. It is by no means a "super highway" (whatever that is).
Unfortunatly, you didnt such a good job distinguishing your arguments from the "vested interest and doom scenarios" because that is exactly what you spoke about in your reply.
These roads are needed because they link the major centres of the country. Name me one single country who would do things any different and i'll buy you a pint!
This talk of default on national debt etc is irrelevant. The roads programme has been massively cut back and only what is vital will be going ahead for the forseable future.
Also irrelevant is talk about planning permission for housing estates and all this rubbish. We can all pick out things wrong in government, but it doesnt mean that everything proposed by every single agency is wrong. This is just someone who is very angry at what has gone on (and arent we all!!) not being able to see the wood from the trees and seeing what makes sense. A proper transport system makes sense and in a country with such low population densities, roads are the only way to cater for that for much of the country.
Do you remember in the 80's when nothing was getting done in this country? The roads were crap, everything was crap. I suggest you think back, because allowing that to continue is no way to get this country back on its feet.0 -
So we dont need a good road between Limerick and Tralee (and hence from Dublin, Galway etc via Limerick to Tralee)?
This is just nonsense.
As you should know, the NRA no longer build the 2 lane standard road type on National primary routes because is it less safe than a divided road. A 2+2 road just re-allocates the road space so there are 2 lanes on each side, allowing safe overtaking. It is by no means a "super highway" (whatever that is).
Unfortunatly, you didnt such a good job distinguishing your arguments from the "vested interest and doom scenarios" because that is exactly what you spoke about in your reply.
These roads are needed because they link the major centres of the country. Name me one single country who would do things any different and i'll buy you a pint!
This talk of default on national debt etc is irrelevant. The roads programme has been massively cut back and only what is vital will be going ahead for the forseable future.
Also irrelevant is talk about planning permission for housing estates and all this rubbish. We can all pick out things wrong in government, but it doesnt mean that everything proposed by every single agency is wrong. This is just someone who is very angry at what has gone on (and arent we all!!) not being able to see the wood from the trees and seeing what makes sense. A proper transport system makes sense and in a country with such low population densities, roads are the only way to cater for that for much of the country.
Do you remember in the 80's when nothing was getting done in this country? The roads were crap, everything was crap. I suggest you think back, because allowing that to continue is no way to get this country back on its feet.
As I told you before I have nothing against good roads I also told you they are vital for the country, it’s where they build them that I have a problem with, they should speak and discuss with the locals much more before going ahead, that’s all. Look at what is happening with the stretch of the M7 between Birdhill & Limerick the road is sinking into the bog; the locals advised them not to take that route. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as they build the roads it does not matter whether it makes any sense at all where they put them this to me is wrong if putting a 2+2 or any type of road where it can kill two birds with one road than that is the option they should take.
Sweden has retrofitted 1000kms of road with 2+1 and they are much better off then us and America and Germany has built 2+1 where they can not afford the motorways and volumes would not warrant them . But sure who are we only the biggest country in the world we pay our leader much more than America so we must be.
In the 80s I would regularly do Dublin-Limerick in 2 hours OK I had to take some risk because the assholes doing 40 – 50MPH would not keep inside the yellow line to let me pass and we are still practically on the same road today.0 -
2+1 is used in Sweden on roads with traffic levels we'd use a narrow S2 on. It *does not work* on the traffic volumes we use 2+2 for. We trialled them here and they've been catastrophic.
2+2 *is not a motorway*. It is a low grade DC and costs virtually no more than WS2 - which has been our minimum standard for national primaries for 15 years or more. It has replaced WS2 so is now the minimum standard we will build.
But as you assume the NRA don't plan roads, of course you're going to ignore the result of extensive trialling.
And the bog problem is poor implementation not bad routing, that is all. "Locals" are either parochial or NIMBYs, there is a damn good reason you don't listen to them and instead build things on proper engineering, proper transport mapping, etc.0 -
2+1 is used in Sweden on roads with traffic levels we'd use a narrow S2 on. It *does not work* on the traffic volumes we use 2+2 for. We trialled them here and they've been catastrophic.
2+2 *is not a motorway*. It is a low grade DC and costs virtually no more than WS2 - which has been our minimum standard for national primaries for 15 years or more. It has replaced WS2 so is now the minimum standard we will build.
But as you assume the NRA don't plan roads, of course you're going to ignore the result of extensive trialling.
And the bog problem is poor implementation not bad routing, that is all. "Locals" are either parochial or NIMBYs, there is a damn good reason you don't listen to them and instead build things on proper engineering, proper transport mapping, etc.
Well I am glad to see the country is is good hands with all that knowledge and confidence you will have the country back to full employment in no time go to it boys and girls. Also I must tell you NRA do not do the planning it is the local councils that do the planning as long as they are to NRA guidelines thats all all that matters to the NRA.
regards0 -
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2+1 is used in Sweden on roads with traffic levels we'd use a narrow S2 on. It *does not work* on the traffic volumes we use 2+2 for. We trialled them here and they've been catastrophic.
That and the Swedes do not have the problem of "Bungalow Blitz *cough* Bliss" that we have blighting every rural road.0 -
That and the Swedes do not have the problem of "Bungalow Blitz *cough* Bliss" that we have blighting every rural road.
+1
I've said it before, this type of settlement should not be allowed anymore - it's simply unsustainable in terms of transport, use of resources, energy use etc! That's not to mention the blight on the landscape!
Regards!0 -
Are we still on for 1st November here???0
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Join Date:Posts: 5027
That is ruled out by the presence of a national park (I also independently came up with the same idea). Check OSM to see it. This is also the same reason that the proposed Adare bypass is passing awkwardly to the south of the town instead of using a far more logical northly routing.lordofthedung wrote: »But going back to the N21 and the route these days with traffic decreasing at an alarming rate it does not support a dual carriage from Adare to NCW but if you want to build a dual carriage then they should think about putting this road on the Foynes side of the present N21 and link in the N69 into it.
Traffic decreasing at an alarming rate? Have you even heard of the recession? What do you think is going to happen to the traffic when it ends?
You're starting to sound like a troll, mate.0 -
Traffic decreasing? My ring it is! I have never in my life seen the roads so busy around the midlands and west
Even this morning - 6.30 on the road and hitting decent traffic the whole way from west to midlands on the main roads
Will someone please show me examples of places where traffic is down, because i certainly have not seen it0 -
+ 1
Drove tralee - galway last weekend.
traffic mental in tralee, castleisland, abbeyfeale, newcastlewest & adare.
adare to ennis went swimmingly (thanks to the tunnel!)
gort wasn't too bad....
clarinbridge made up for it though...
still, i made it in 2:45.
i remember the bad old days when it took me 4 hrs to drive tralee-galway!
but i appreciate what you are saying...
the traffic around tralee and also the n21 tralee-adare seems busier now than before ... but i obviously don't have a scientific basis for this!veryangryman wrote: »Traffic decreasing? My ring it is! I have never in my life seen the roads so busy around the midlands and west
Even this morning - 6.30 on the road and hitting decent traffic the whole way from west to midlands on the main roads
Will someone please show me examples of places where traffic is down, because i certainly have not seen it0 -
I must agree with V.Angry Man and Fresca.
Traffic counters in and around Adare may be showing a slight drop but anytime I have travelled this road between Adare and Castleisland - traffic volumes are the same and more dangerous than ever.
I am beginning to suspect that Lord of The Dung must have some business located along the N21.......there can be no other reason... the N21 between Adare and Castleisland is a death trap and will continue to be so until it is developed as 2+2.
Remember, when M7 and M18(Gort) are completed in November, added to Ryanair cutting back on Kerry/Dublin - this road will become even more busier and more deadly than ever.0 -
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i would imagine that Aer Arann will be offered the PSO for kerry-dublin.
but either way, i take your point, on the increased traffic.
No, Aer arann wont be offered the PSO. Ryanair have the PSO now however its being discontinued. Hence Ryanair will now only operate on a commercial basis.0 -
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Well Fresca,
Any update on mooted 1st November opening for C'island bypass?
Passed by today and it looked to be ready to open......0
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