Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

British Army/RUC waterboarded suspects in the 70's

Options
  • 22-12-2009 5:43pm
    #1
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/21/british-army-northern-ireland-interrogations
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8426443.stm

    The upholders of the law using terror tactics terrorizing the population at will inside and on the outside just like on Bloody Sunday, surprise surprise.
    Guardian wrote:
    When Holden came to trial in April 1973 he told the jury he had been playing cards with his brother and two friends in a public place at the time Bell was shot. He said that after being arrested in his bed the soldiers had taken him to their base on Black Mountain, west of Belfast, where he was beaten, burned with a cigarette lighter, hooded and threatened with execution.

    Holden also gave a detailed account of being waterboarded, although he did not use that term. In a court report published the following day, the Belfast Telegraph said the defendant told the jury that he had been pushed into a cubicle where he was held down by six men, that a towel was placed over his head, and that water was then poured slowly over his face from a bucket. "It nearly put me unconscious," Holden was quoted as saying. "It nearly drowned me and stopped me from breathing. This went on for a minute." A short while later he was subjected to the same treatment again, he said.


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Are you expressing an opinion or just general trolling??


  • Options
    #3
    Hendrix89
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Hendrix89


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Are you expressing an opinion or just general trolling??
    Are you that incapable of expressing sympathy for those who suffered abuse at the hands of the British and disgust at their actions or are you just trolling?


  • Options
    #4
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I though this was well known....


  • Options
    #5
    Riddle101
    Registered Users Posts: 8,414 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Lot's of dark deeds were done during those days by all sides. It's just how things are done. Although I feel sorry, i'm not surprised, how else do you get information from people?


  • Options
    #6
    Paul4As
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Paul4As


    British army personel and RUC officers weren't afforded the option of being just waterboarded if they were captured during the troubles!!! They were probably just stripped, beaten and shot in the back of the head!!!
    BUT...hopefully those days are over!!! Good and bad on both sides back then!!! Look to the future...onwards and upwards for Northern Ireland!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    Lot's of dark deeds were done during those days by all sides. It's just how things are done. Although I feel sorry, i'm not surprised, how else do you get information from people?

    Waterboarding suspects is how law and order forces administer policing?

    Its not you know. Its called abusing a position of power!


  • Options
    #8
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Disgusting behavior by British forces, and shows there brutality against the average person. Also, it has been well established that torture is not the best method of getting information, and that there actions probably didn't benefit them a whole lot and probably encouraged more people to take up arms against them. Its unfortunate that they don't seem to have learned there lesson.


  • Options
    #9
    Paul4As
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Paul4As


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Waterboarding suspects is how law and order forces administer policing?

    Its not you know. Its called abusing a position of power!

    Maybe if law and order in Ireland and the UK was more like that then these knife crime people, rapists, tiger kidnappers. paedophiles would think twice about committing whatever they do...to be only slapped on the wrist and given a warning!!!
    In Ireland and the UK it's the innocent who get the punishment!!!


  • Options
    #10
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Are you expressing an opinion or just general trolling??

    Where did you get that one from? What is your opinion?

    Perhaps, you should read Wes post. Torturing suspects where there would be a high degree of those suspects been innocent encourages violence from the other side in turn.
    Paul4As wrote: »
    British army personel and RUC officers weren't afforded the option of being just waterboarded if they were captured during the troubles!!! They were probably just stripped, beaten and shot in the back of the head!!!

    So both are equally as bad, wish some here realise that.
    Paul4As wrote: »
    BUT...hopefully those days are over!!! Good and bad on both sides back then!!! Look to the future...onwards and upwards for Northern Ireland!!!
    Amen to that!


  • Options
    #11
    Paul4As
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Paul4As


    wes wrote: »
    Also, it has been well established that torture is not the best method of getting information

    It seems to be the best way of getting information in the movies!!! :D
    I love those vigilante movies where the guy who has been wronged goes on a long winded trek to get to the baddie...beating up a few of the baddie's cronies along the way to get clues in his search!!! :D


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Paul4As wrote: »
    It seems to be the best way of getting information in the movies!!! :D

    They are a narrative short cut, used to get things moving in a film.
    Paul4As wrote: »
    I love those vigilante movies where the guy who has been wronged goes on a long winded trek to get to the baddie...beating up a few of the baddie's cronies along the way to get clues in his search!!! :D

    There is a world of difference between a random vigilante and the police. The 2 should be held to completely different standards.


  • Options
    #13
    Paul4As
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Paul4As


    wes wrote: »
    They are a narrative short cut, used to get things moving in a film.

    There is a world of difference between a random vigilante and the police. The 2 should be held to completely different standards.

    Isn't it great to rightfully see crime being punished in these films though...maybe not by those who should be doing it however, as in the the police and courts!!!
    Pity justice doesn't happen in real life!!! :mad:


  • Options
    #14
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Nodin wrote: »
    I though this was well known....

    Thought so as well. It is quite clear that the British media and people have no idea what went on in their name


  • Options
    #15
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Paul4As wrote: »
    Isn't it great to rightfully see crime being punished in these films though...maybe not by those who should be doing it however, as in the the police and courts!!!
    Pity justice doesn't happen in real life!!! :mad:

    I agree completely. The criminals who water boarded an innocent man in order to extract a bogus confession, resulting in him spending 17 years in prison will not even get a slap on the wrist.


  • Options
    #16
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    This should never have happened, but it did.

    Thanks to the economy we are back to a lot of young men in ulster looking for something to do. This talk is far more dangerous than some realise.


  • Options
    #17
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Nodin wrote: »
    I though this was well known....

    Indeed, Castlereagh became common knowledge in the late 70's/early 80's.

    Case went to the ECHR and the UK lost.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #18
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    And the Irish Government around the same time had a group of heavies in the Gardaí who used to "beat the ****" out of suspects to get information out of them. It was recounted by Conor Cruise O'Brien as something he knew of (and approved of) as a Minister. Different times etc.


  • Options
    #19
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    It reminds me of the line - "You dare call me a terrorist, while you look down your gun." - It's very apt here. Countries such as England and the US claim to be the moral backbone of the world, denouncing terrorism - but yet use methods like this and expect to continue to lead the world by example. It just doesn't fly.

    You can be sure if this happened to a British civilian living in Afghanistan, there would be an uproar in the media. It's the double-standards that get to people.


  • Options
    #20
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You can be sure if this happened to a British civilian living in Afghanistan, there would be an uproar in the media. It's the double-standards that get to people.

    Eh, when it happens to Afghans in Afghanistan committed by British Army people there's uproar in the media...


  • Options
    #21
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    nesf wrote: »
    Eh, when it happens to Afghans in Afghanistan committed by British Army people there's uproar in the media...

    Not on the same level. Waterboarding is casually avoided by many media outlets.

    I'll give you an example - When foreign nationals are detained under the "patriot act" type policies in the US and Britain, officials at top levels brush it off as if it's normal to detain people without a trial and torture them.

    Now, have a look at where an American or British citizen has been detained in let's say - Iran, on conspiracy of spying (with which they release shortly after) - The amount of time given to one person, compared to the hundreds who are detained without a trial is imbalanced to say the least.

    Which brings me back to my original point, US/Britain want to be the moral backbone of the world - but only if they themselves can bypass any requirements for it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Not on the same level. Waterboarding is casually avoided by many media outlets.

    I'll give you an example - When foreign nationals are detained under the "patriot act" type policies in the US and Britain, officials at top levels brush it off as if it's normal to detain people without a trial and torture them.

    Now, have a look at where an American or British citizen has been detained in let's say - Iran, on conspiracy of spying (with which they release shortly after) - The amount of time given to one person, compared to the hundreds who are detained without a trial is imbalanced to say the least.

    Which brings me back to my original point, US/Britain want to be the moral backbone of the world - but only if they themselves can bypass any requirements for it.

    Eh, so applying diplomatic pressure to get citizens of yours released from custody in other countries is a bad thing now? You're really stretching your argument here.


  • Options
    #23
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    nesf wrote: »
    Eh, so applying diplomatic pressure to get citizens of yours released from custody in other countries is a bad thing now? You're really stretching your argument here.

    No it's not a bad thing - but the reaction is hypocritical. A sort of - "How dare they detain our citizen.", (even if it was for a legitimate reason) - meanwhile, they detain 100's of foreign nationals without trial.

    How can a nation preach to the world about terrorism, when they themselves are actively engaged in it. How can a nation preach to the world about freedom, when they themselves do not afford everyone the right to a fair trial and routinely attack civil liberties in their own countries. Am I really stretching? Is what I've said not valid?


  • Options
    #24
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No it's not a bad thing - but the reaction is hypocritical. A sort of - "How dare they detain our citizen.", (even if it was for a legitimate reason) - meanwhile, they detain 100's of foreign nationals without trial.

    How can a nation preach to the world about terrorism, when they themselves are actively engaged in it. How can a nation preach to the world about freedom, when they themselves do not afford everyone the right to a fair trial and routinely attack civil liberties in their own countries. Am I really stretching? Is what I've said not valid?


    heh heh you are letting your idealism get the better of you my friend.

    Terrorism today is a dirty business,anyone who is naive enough or blinkered to believe that terrorism today can be fought and crushed by conventional methods is a tad off the mark in my opinion.


  • Options
    #25
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Terrorism today is a dirty business,anyone who is naive enough or blinkered to believe that terrorism today can be fought and crushed by conventional methods is a tad off the mark in my opinion.

    You missed my point completely.

    Using "terrorism" to subvert terrorism is hypocritical. Moreover - causes more harm than good.


  • Options
    #26
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You missed my point completely.

    .


    Don't think so;)


  • Options
    #27
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Don't think so;)

    Well then - why didn't you respond with regards to my argument - which was the hypocrisy of using terrorism to subvert terrorism.


  • Options
    #28
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I don't see any hypocrisy in using non conventional methods to crush terrorism.

    If you believe that terrorism can be defeated by fair trials and conventional courts of justice, well fair play to you.

    A lot of body bags are coming home from people who didn't get fair trials or conventional justice, just an IED and finito.

    I respect those people who safeguard my freedom, rather than the cowards who hide in the shadows and don't care who they kill.


  • Options
    #29
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I don't see any hypocrisy in using non conventional methods to crush terrorism.

    Who said anything about non-conventional methods? I categorically stated "using terrorism to subvert terrorism". Yes, it is hypocritical. Unless you have another definition of hypocrisy, I'd like to hear it.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    If you believe that terrorism can be defeated by fair trials and conventional courts of justice, well fair play to you.

    I don't believe that attacking sovereign nations, resulting in the deaths of 100'000's of civilians is going to remove terrorism from the world. All it will do is make people more angry, and more inclined to use terrorism as a response to their ongoing oppression.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    A lot of body bags are coming home from people who didn't get fair trials or conventional justice, just an IED and finito.

    And I feel sorry for people who have lost their lives in an ethically weak war. But they opted to be there. People in Iraq did not choose to be killed. Many had no choice.
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I respect those people who safeguard my freedom, rather than the cowards who hide in the shadows and don't care who they kill.

    Like pilots who drop cluster bombs on civilian populations, or snipers who shoot from 2 miles away? What freedom is it you speak of? The freedom to vote? The freedom to have civil equality? Tell me exactly what these insurgents are doing that is impacting your freedom?


  • Options
    #30
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    They are costing me thousands in taxes for security.

    The reason they haven't had more effect is that the US sees to it that they are contained and not allowed to bring down western industry and lifestyle by terrorist actions.

    Without the US involvement these malcontents would be free to hatch their terrorist agenda in the caves of Afghanistan and have free rein to launch attacks on the West.

    Thank God we have a strong ally who is not afraid to face them down and their cohorts, at considerable cost and sacrifice.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Paul4As wrote: »
    Maybe if law and order in Ireland and the UK was more like that then these knife crime people, rapists, tiger kidnappers. paedophiles would think twice about committing whatever they do...to be only slapped on the wrist and given a warning!!!
    In Ireland and the UK it's the innocent who get the punishment!!!
    Whatever you may think about people who break the law when they are in the custody of the state their captors have a duty to treat them according to guidelines set down. If the law and order forces neglect to abide by the rules then the whole system and society itself will face a major crises and anarchy is an almost certain byproduct. This is a large contributory factor to the shambles of the northern statelet.


Advertisement