How do you prevent non mentally ill from getting psychiatric drugs

SLUSK

I have written a previous post about how hard it is to separate those who suffer from mental illness and those who do not. It is possible to fake mental illness in order to be prescribed drugs which you then can use legally.

If I was a drug addict I would probably try to do this because then I would get free drugs and I would also be able to get high legally. So how do you go about preventing people who are not mentally ill to get prescribed psychiatric drugs?

Odysseus

SLUSK wrote: »

I have written a previous post about how hard it is to separate those who suffer from mental illness and those who do not. It is possible to fake mental illness in order to be prescribed drugs which you then can use legally.

If I was a drug addict I would probably try to do this because then I would get free drugs and I would also be able to get high legally. So how do you go about preventing people who are not mentally ill to get prescribed psychiatric drugs?

Not all psych drugs are drug of abuse, very few in fact; tbh most of my clients get them from GPs not psychiatrists, if you have a friend doing this they need to see a therapist.

SLUSK

X and Y can be used to get a type of high that you would expect from cocaine. Drug addicts have been known to crush Ritalin into powder and snort it or melt it down and inject it.

I was once talking to a guy on Skype, don't know him really well only met him once. He had been drinking quite alot of alcohol and taken a Z pill. His behavior was very strange to say the least.

How do you stop people from gettings these drugs when they should not have them?

Odysseus

Those Amphetamine type drugs need to be started by a psych, whilst you are correct about the potential for abuse. However, in the 12 years I worked in the addiction field in Ireland I never had a case of this. That is because the psychs are very careful about prescribing the drugs.


Z is a benzo, they cause me more difficulties that herion to try put it into context. They interact quite severely which may explain what you saw. Why are you so interested in stopping people getting drugs?

The best answer is to get the to see an addiction profession or suggest a self help group like NA.

You can't stop people gettting drugs to abuse we have been at it for thousands of years, you can make ut harder and certain protocols have been introducted over the years.

Whilst I'm all for getting people clean; some just don't won't it, and some people are so psychologically damaged that it may be best to left the with the drugs and try to inprove quality of life.

SLUSK

I don't like the idea that the taxpayers are subsidizing drugs which are then sold onto the black market. As I said before you should be able to fake the symptoms of ADHD with the aid of the current revision of the DSM.

As for the other guy now that I realize what kind of person he is I will not hang out with him because he is obviously a moron.

Odysseus

SLUSK wrote: »

I don't like the idea that the taxpayers are subsidizing drugs which are then sold onto the black market. As I said before you should be able to fake the symptoms of ADHD with the aid of the current revision of the DSM.

The are thousands of benzos being sold in one area in Dublin every day, most of these come from GPs. A lot are paid for on private scripts not all but a high proportion. I would forget the ADHA. As for taxpayers money what about methadone centres I belive in them other I would not have spent the last 7 years in one, however only a few want treatment per say, most just want their daily dose then go out and use, and some of this makes it on to the black market, some by us; but more from GPs who prescribe it and in some cases their systems are lask.

If people are gettting pharmaceuticals there are at lest no dangerous additives in them. As I said people have always taken mood altering substances and no mater what we do some people will always seek them out.

Odysseus

Just to add addicts are experts are getting the drugs they want. Basically you will never stop this, you can try to limit it, but that can have consequences for people who need them. I took care of my father in his home when he was dying, I had to have a vicious row with the GP to get him the MST he required. So any limits you put on prescribing has to factor in a way of prescribing needed meds, withit it being over prohibitive.

Valmont

Where are you going with this?

sam34

Valmont wrote: »

Where are you going with this?

presumably down the scientology inspired "mental-illness-doesnt-exist-and-anyone-who-tries-to-say-otherwise-is-part-of-an-evil-big-pharma-conspiracy-and-is-brainwashing-everyone-the-truth-is-psychotropic-drugs-are-the-work-of-the-devil" route

:rolleyes:

i'm using poetic licence, but you get my drift

Doug Cartel

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but you won't be prescribed amphetamines/x after the age of 18 unless you are continuing treatment for ADHD that was previously diagnosed.

If you want to score drugs from a doctor, you'd be better off faking chronic pain problems.

sam34

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but you won't be prescribed amphetamines/ritalin after the age of 18 unless you are continuing treatment for ADHD that was previously diagnosed.

If you want to score drugs from a doctor, you'd be better off faking chronic pain problems.

well, i'm a psychiatrist, and i only know of one colleague who would initiate a script for x in an adult.

and, without naming names, this person is not well thought of by their peers

SLUSK

Would you be able to tell apart someone is faking their symptoms from someone who is truly mentaly ill? The Rosenhan experiment proved that at this time psychiatry could not differentiate the mentally ill from those who are not mentally ill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Don't you find it disturbing that psychiatrists peddle drugs to drug addicts? Don't you find it disturbing that they are peddling drugs to people who are not really ill?

Here in Sweden it seems to be easier to get hold of psychiatric drugs than totally illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine.

sam34

SLUSK wrote: »

Would you be able to tell apart someone is faking their symptoms from someone who is truly mentaly ill? The Rosenhan experiment proved that at this time psychiatry could not differentiate the mentally ill from those who are not mentally ill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Don't you find it disturbing that psychiatrists peddle drugs to drug addicts? Don't you find it disturbing that they are peddling drugs to people who are not really ill?

Here in Sweden it seems to be easier to get hold of psychiatric drugs than totally illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine.

the merits, and lack thereof, of that study have been discussed in your other thread, so im not going to go repeating that here.

psychiatrists do not "peddle" drugs, to suggest that they do is sensationalist and misleading.

what evidence have you to suggest that psychiatrists are peddling drugs to those who are not mentally ill?

SLUSK

The symptoms of ADHD are easy to fake.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18877624

Fake ADHD and then you have free speed, paid for by the taxpayers.

sam34

SLUSK wrote: »

The symptoms of ADHD are easy to fake.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18877624

Fake ADHD and then you have free speed, paid for by the taxpayers.

sensationalism.

while someone can turn up and claim to have symptom x/y/z, adhd is generally not just diagnosed based on subjective self reporting.

and its not standard practice for adults in this country to be given x as an adult if they have not been on it as a younger person.

children are not diagnosed with adhd without standardised rating scales being completed by people who know/observe teh child long term. its not a "snap shot" diagnosis.

Valmont

SLUSK you are suggesting that psychiatric services are some massive drugs free-for-all that is full of addicts and con men. Does this not strike you as slightly ridiculous?

You seem to be taking the Rosenhan experiment and other such critiques of various aspects of psychiatry and generalising them further than they can be legitimately taken.

All in the name of Scientology!

Odysseus

SLUSK wrote: »

Would you be able to tell apart someone is faking their symptoms from someone who is truly mentaly ill? The Rosenhan experiment proved that at this time psychiatry could not differentiate the mentally ill from those who are not mentally ill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment



Don't you find it disturbing that psychiatrists peddle drugs to drug addicts? Don't you find it disturbing that they are peddling drugs to people who are not really ill?

Here in Sweden it seems to be easier to get hold of psychiatric drugs than totally illegal drugs like heroin and cocaine.

Look as I said earlier I think it was a very interesting experiment and I use it in lectures as I think there is a lot to be learnt from it. Though its psychotherapists I teach. However, you have to acknowledge it was conducted almost 40 years ago and things have moved on a bit.

As for getting drugs off doctors to abuse you can fake anxiety problems for benzos, some people have always used chemicals and some will always use them. I remember when the Addiction Services was only starting up in this country and there where waiting lists of over a year for treatment. During this time I know of two people who consciously shared injecting equipment in order to contract HIV so they would be taken on as an emergency.

So what I'm saying is some people will go to any lengths to get drugs, and there are also some doctors who will write up scripts for money. This will never change.

Personally if somebody is going to abuse drugs I would prefer they to be using pharmaceuticals as there is no sh!t in then. There is currently another contamination scare going on, a few addicts in Scotland have died. We lost a client recently over solvent abuse. Because Social Services and the courts where keeping a close eye on their urine samples they used something that wouldn't show and because of this dropped dead in front of their small child. It was a few hours before the partner returned home.

So what do you suggest to stop people abusing drugs then? As I have stated I'm not a fan of a lot of psychiatric treatment and the ICD-10 or the DSM. However, just because I have theoretical issues with certain things I wouldn't deny that sterling work the psych services do in this country.

I'm a psychoanalyst so my work is based around a talking cure, but if psych meds facilitate a person in engaging in this process I have no problems with it.

As for the peddling of drugs I know of certain doctors who will write up scripts for whatever the person wants for a fee, some even meet clients in car parks. Outrageous behaviour but you can’t tarnish the whole profession with it.

SLUSK

Another problem is people who are truly mentally ill get prescribed drugs, these people might have children. What is stopping the children from getting high on mommy or daddy's antidepressants?

Zainal

One hopes that the adults would take precautions to prevent their children from accessing their medicines. We can hardly ban something simply because children might get access to them. If we started doing that we'd never stop.

SLUSK

Zainal wrote: »

One hopes that the adults would take precautions to prevent their children from accessing their medicines. We can hardly ban something simply because children might get access to them. If we started doing that we'd never stop.

As a first step we could stop subsidizing psychiatric medication, in the long run all health care should be privatized and not subsidized with one single sent.

Zainal

Because only poor people make mistakes of course. There's no way anyone who could afford private health care could possibly let their kids get at their medicines.

That's only a solution if you're more worried about your taxes subsidising drugs rather than the idea of people abusing said drugs. Which I guess you are.

Nevermind.

Doug Cartel

SLUSK wrote: »

What is stopping the children from getting high on mommy or daddy's antidepressants?

One thing that would stop them getting high is that antidepressants generally don't make you high.

Odysseus

SLUSK wrote: »

Another problem is people who are truly mentally ill get prescribed drugs, these people might have children. What is stopping the children from getting high on mommy or daddy's antidepressants?

A certain amount of my client based would have stole mammy's benzos, so there is a point there. However, to suggest that was the cauasative factor in their addiction is just silly, and to suggest that people who need anti/ds which have no abuse factor should not be presrcibed then is senseless. What anti/ds have you heard of that people abuse in order to get high. If one parent have cancer in that we should let them die in severe pain in case someone sterals their opiate painkillers.

Odysseus

SLUSK wrote: »

As a first step we could stop subsidizing psychiatric medication, in the long run all health care should be privatized and not subsidized with one single sent.

Of course we should, especially those who are unable to work because of their illness. You want people to pay for their treatment, about 75% of my clients are not working, of course they should pay anywhere from e50 to e90 for therapy each week. That would be merely my fee I charge the lower end of that scale with client in private work, and of course there is also the medical fees then.

Edit:

Whilst I work within a medical setting, I'm not a big fan of how it operates in Ireland, especially with the area I work in. However, there would be alot more deaths from drug abuse and associated pathologies if we stopped it tomorrow. I seen the flaws and the mistakes everyday, but really mate your posting Sh!te. If you free so strongly about these issues which, clearly you do, why don't you go and do the long hard work of studying and qualifying yourself to work in mental health. A good long hard five to seven years just to get you started then maybe you could try to change things. Spent a few sessions with people on the severe end on the mental distress scale, see the difference that meds can make in some cases, especially when part of that difference is facilitating engagement in a psychotherapeutic treatment.