New Legacy in showrooms...

pburns

New Legacy in showrooms, and to my eyes at least it looks better than I was imagining at least in these photos:

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200952196289044

Only thing is there's a significent increase in price (at a time when everybody else is slashing prices). Apparantly they want to compete with the Accord (also over-priced IMO). I guess at least with the Subaru you get AWD but still...

Lex Luthor

ya its a huge jump in price over the outgoing model...

that one looks tarted up a bit which makes it look a bit more appealing but in standard form it still looks bland.

Makes me even more glad I didn't wait a few more months to jump in as the outgoing model still looks better (in estate form) than the new one and is 10k cheaper

TomMc

The cars aren't really overpriced for what you get in terms of the overall package, equipment & spec etc. But since they sold the run out model at a knockdown list price, everyone assumed the bargain prices would continue with the new model. They are right to place the car above the repmobile market as they have a USP others don't and better standard spec as well.

I'd say like all things supply and demand, dictate prices. If you have only so many vehicles you charge what you think the market will bare. What is the point in selling a years worth of vehicles (allocation) in the first month or two of the year. Undervaluing what you have got to offer and selling it cheap only hurts residuals even more.

I hope Subaru bring the 2.0L & 2.5L petrol lineartronics in as well but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't. Just a 2.5 in the UK at the moment. Germany gets both.

Anan1

TomMc wrote: »

I hope Subaru bring the 2.0L & 2.5L petrol lineartronics in as well but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't. Just a 2.5 in the UK at the moment. Germany gets both.

A diesel automatic would be nice too.:)

bazz26

If I was the owner of a current model Legacy I would not be running out to buy this. Looks like it was designed and priced by an accountant, even the trade mark Subaru frameless doors have disappered, instead we get bits of bling chrome surrounds.

I reckon this car has been priced out of the market here and you will see very little of them on our roads. While it may now be pitched against the Accord, your typical Accord buyer will not have the Legacy on their shopping list.

Things like AWD, boxer engines and a rallying pedigree are not what your typical Accord buyer will look for in an alternative. I think Subaru have got the pricing and target market wrong as they will miss out on the niche market that the old Legacy enjoyed.

mailforkev

I stand to be corrected on this but I think I remember hearing that they weren't bothering to offer the saloon at all in the UK market.

Not a patch looks wise on the model it's replacing, particularly in the front.

Lex Luthor

has the new model got a 6sp diesel? Only 5sp in the outgoing model, not that I'm complaining as I find the gearing ratio very good for 5 gears

bazz26

Lex Luthor wrote: »

has the new model got a 6sp diesel? Only 5sp in the outgoing model, not that I'm complaining as I find the gearing ratio very good for 5 gears

According to Parkers.co.uk the new Tourer diesel has a 6 speed box so I presume the saloon has it too.

TomMc

6 speed MT standard as of now.

This is a good site for more detailed info.

http://www.subaru.eu/Legacy/en/legacy/index.html - Bit slow to load.



While the Legacy and Accord may appeal to different type of buyers, pricing them similarly to reflect their superior engineering, higher build quality and standard spec over mass-market European rivals is justified. Just Irish people are generally cheapskates and want champagne for beer price. Both cars sit in between repmobiles and compact execs and this is reflected in the price.

bazz26

Legacy Tourer looks a bit better:

pajo1981

Damn, that's an ugly car

The interior hurts my eyes!

TomMc

bazz26 wrote: »

I reckon this car has been priced out of the market here and you will see very little of them on our roads. While it may now be pitched against the Accord, your typical Accord buyer will not have the Legacy on their shopping list.

Things like AWD, boxer engines and a rallying pedigree are not what your typical Accord buyer will look for in an alternative. I think Subaru have got the pricing and target market wrong as they will miss out on the niche market that the old Legacy enjoyed.

When I bought my one new in 2005 it was a similar enough in price to the current 35-37k bracket. Subaru will not lose out because the people who bought them new when they were petrol only down the years, will continue to do so. They were always a niche choice and will continue to be so.

The new market they carved out in the past two years with the introduction of the Boxer diesel was not with traditional Subaru owners. Mostly people who never gave them serious consideration when they were petrol models only. These people now realise what a bargain they got for a brand new car.

Just because the average Irish motorist doesn't appreciate what you get for the premium over a fwd eurobox (because their opinions are routed in urban myths and badge snobbery), doesn't mean cars should be priced to pander to their level of ignorance. You get more, you pay more.

TomMc

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Subaru/Legacy/auction-255403568.htm

Bazz, Look at it in Dark Amethyst, a purple colour not available in the UK, but the German, Aussie and Kiwi markets do.

245

Must drop up to my local Subaru dealer and see what it looks like in the flesh and what the cabin plastics are like quality-wise.

Pity they discontinued the twin tailpipes - it looks a lot tamer at the back without them

unkel

TomMc wrote: »

The new market they carved out in the past two years with the introduction of the Boxer diesel was not with traditional Subaru owners. Mostly people who never gave them serious consideration when they were petrol models only. These people now realise what a bargain they got for a brand new car.

Agree 100%. Especialy the Impreza diesel buyers are coming from elsewhere, they might have bought an Astra or a Corolla previously.

TomMc wrote: »

Just because the average Irish motorist doesn't appreciate what you get for the premium over a fwd eurobox (because their opinions are routed in urban myths and badge snobbery), doesn't mean cars should be priced to pander to their level of ignorance. You get more, you pay more.

I don't think that's how the "new" Subaru buyer thinks. He sees a car costing about the same as his Golf (to his mind VW is more premium than Subaru) with a better spec and of course the 4WD. A 21k diesel Impreza starts making a lot of sense. A 36k Legacy with the same engine and transmission makes a lot less sense to the new buyer. But maybe it still makes sense to the customer previously buying a Saab

Bee

pburns wrote: »

New Legacy in showrooms, and to my eyes at least it looks better than I was imagining at least in these photos:

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200952196289044

Only thing is there's a significent increase in price (at a time when everybody else is slashing prices). Apparantly they want to compete with the Accord (also over-priced IMO). I guess at least with the Subaru you get AWD but still...

HAving taken it for a test drive it is every bit as good as the older model:rolleyes:

That is, it's no better than the previous model and it's about 10k overpriced!

Anyone who would pay the asking price is off their heads

It is a pity really as it is a decent though currently very overpriced car

245

unkel wrote: »

A 21k diesel Impreza starts making a lot of sense.

It really does but the shame of it is that the cheapest Impreza is now 28K (excluding charges).

I couldn't figure out why the Impreza was now Legacy money but given the pricing of the 2010 Legacy I can see that its a perhaps ill advised effort to go upmarket in the middle of a major motor sector slump.

And now for a rant - why are Subaru Ireland so expensive for accessories? - a full set of premium Legacy mats is STG 45 incl VAT in the UK and 90 euro plus VAT here. All the accessories that I've checked the price of here are double the price of the UK ones (eg, iPod connection, steering wheel audio controls etc). Its forcing me up north.....

TomMc

When a 21k Impreza existed, the now old shape Legacy was 27k so a 6k gap between segments which is more or less the same as every other manufacturer that shares engines across model ranges.

The entry level Impreza now is 28K & Legacy 35k so a 7k gap. That is normal. The Alfa 159 1.9 JTDM is similarly priced for a mid spec one. That is probably its most appropriate rival in Ireland or an A4 Quattro, which is quite a bit more until you hit the options list.

TomMc

245 wrote: »

And now for a rant - why are Subaru Ireland so expensive for accessories? - a full set of premium Legacy mats is STG 45 incl VAT in the UK and 90 euro plus VAT here. All the accessories that I've checked the price of here are double the price of the UK ones (eg, iPod connection, steering wheel audio controls etc). Its forcing me up north.....

I found that out in 2005:D, Bell & Colvill had a webshop then so sorted me out for various bits.

pburns

TomMc wrote: »

When a 21k Impreza existed, the now old shape Legacy was 27k so a 6k gap between segments which is more or less the same as every other manufacturer that shares engines across model ranges.

The entry level Impreza now is 28K & Legacy 35k so a 7k gap. That is normal. The Alfa 159 1.9 JTDM is similarly priced for a mid spec one. That is probably its most appropriate rival in Ireland or an A4 Quattro, which is quite a bit more until you hit the options list.

Saw one this evening...

I have to say they've speced it nicely for Ireland - wheels look great in the flesh and headlights/grill combo better than expected. Dunno what to make of the interior, wasn't inside the car. Old car was great value during run-out but still a littlew dear IMO.

Don't think I'd consider changing unless they increased bhp tho, it's a bigger car.

Tom, you're really nailing your colours to the mast as a Subaru-man, fair dues:D

TomMc

The saloon starts at 30k in Germany and finishes up at 39,800 with Sat Nav. 1k more for the estate. They have three trim levels and a sports version, so four models to our one. The 2.0L & 2.5L petrols are similar enough money to the diesel. So 35k in Ireland is about right. Just when the competition reduces the price of theirs, people think Subaru should follow. The others however competent have no USP. You pays your money, you take your choice.

Drummerboy08

The biggest problem it has is residual value. Come 3 years, I reckon it wont be worth much more than the equivilent Mondeo or Passat with similar spec (bar the AWD obviously). Maybe a thousand euro more, but not much. I dont think it will hold its own here at all when it comes to resale.

Berty

I wonder have Subaru learned their lesson from the previous model. Their lack of sales or brand image has not changed too much so why add 10K to the price if you cannot sell the field full of previous models?

Priced themselves out of it IMO. Anyway does anybody know how many production allowances they are getting in 2010?

245

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The biggest problem it has is residual value. Come 3 years, I reckon it wont be worth much more than the equivilent Mondeo or Passat with similar spec (bar the AWD obviously). Maybe a thousand euro more, but not much. I dont think it will hold its own here at all when it comes to resale.

The thinking seems to be that non-boy racer Subaru owners are 'different' - i.e.they value an understated image but demand quality and are unlikely to chase number plate year recognition. Also, Subarus tend to be bulletproof mechanically (apart from JDM imports) within the confines of sympathetic scheduled maintenance and so are unlikely to need to change too regularly. From my own perspective, I bought my first new car in 1998 and changed for another new car every 18 months until I bought my Legacy in 2008 (which is 18 months old, strangely enough ). The Legacy is the first new car that I've owned that I don't want to change, for the simple reason that there's no need - apart from a lack of heated windscreen washer nozzles maybe I reckon that the older it gets, the more that it'll differentiate itself from any Mondeo/Passat equivalent.

unkel

Berty wrote: »

Priced themselves out of it IMO.

+1

If they could sell a base Impreza for 21k but are now looking for 28k still in the middle of a recession, they're having a right laugh. Good luck to them :rolleyes:

colm_mcm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The biggest problem it has is residual value. Come 3 years, I reckon it wont be worth much more than the equivilent Mondeo or Passat with similar spec (bar the AWD obviously). Maybe a thousand euro more, but not much. I dont think it will hold its own here at all when it comes to resale.

You could say the same thing about a Volvo S60, Honda Accord, Audi A4.

Padraig Mor

Exterior looks far less of a disaster than pics suggested, albeit somewhat bland. Pity about the lack of twin exhausts though. Interior still looks like it might be cheap as chips but you can't tell until you see it in the flesh.

€36k though??!! They're having a laugh! As for chasing the Accord market - what Accord market?!

colm_mcm

IMO the styling has regressed back to the facelifted bug eye Impreza with a bit of Opel insignia and old 7 series thrown in. Doesn't sit well with me.

pajo1981

colm_mcm wrote: »

You could say the same thing about a Volvo S60, Honda Accord, Audi A4.

Not the A4.

Drummerboy08

colm_mcm wrote: »

You could say the same thing about a Volvo S60, Honda Accord, Audi A4.

Whatever about the Honda, the Volvo and the Audi are worth alot more than a Mondeo and Passat. Both cars have a decent following. The Honda should still be worth more than both too, to a certain market.

The problem with the Legacy is that there are/will be too few around. The Accord has been experienced by a lot of people in the past - this shows by the numbers of them new and old you see on the road. How many Legacy's do you see? Not half as many. People will be scared of it if they dont know what it is. They'll think "oh no, another dogdy Jap/Korean/dungmaster car".

Trust me, I've had this argument in the office a few times now and it always ends the same. The Legacy loses to everything else on list price and residual.

Lex Luthor

bazz26 wrote: »

Legacy Tourer looks a bit better:

over the saloon? I dunno...as bad as the saloon is, the new tourer has gone backwards even more...
That grill, those lights....just hideous...

gimme this any day

vectra

bazz26 wrote: »

Legacy Tourer looks a bit better:

Nice :cool:

alias no.9

bazz26 wrote: »

Legacy Tourer looks a bit better:

I can't help but see the facelifted Vectra C in those pics, not pretty

unkel

That's nearly a carbon copy of the Vectra :eek:

With an added touch of ugliness in the grille and the high brow wheel arches.

Lex Luthor

I'd nearly go as far to say the Vectra C is better looking :eek:

TomMc

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Whatever about the Honda, the Volvo and the Audi are worth alot more than a Mondeo and Passat. Both cars have a decent following. The Honda should still be worth more than both too, to a certain market.

The problem with the Legacy is that there are/will be too few around. The Accord has been experienced by a lot of people in the past - this shows by the numbers of them new and old you see on the road. How many Legacy's do you see? Not half as many. People will be scared of it if they dont know what it is. They'll think "oh no, another dogdy Jap/Korean/dungmaster car".

Trust me, I've had this argument in the office a few times now and it always ends the same. The Legacy loses to everything else on list price and residual.

The problem is that in Ireland people put the Passat, A4 and Accord on a pedestal. So what happens is they get imported from the UK second hand far cheaper than their Irish equivalent on the used market. Whats more some rogues can clock them on the ferry over (quality plastics hide mileage better) and because many people over here are so brainwashed by badges or reputations for reliabilty (which are largely from previous decades), make a killing.

What people have to remember is that most of the competition have diesel models for donkeys years. Subaru merely two. You cannot change public perception so quickly when they perceive Subaru as a left-field choice which will be much more expensive to run based on petrol models down the years. Urban myths about badge kudos, reliability and all that mean the public will continue buying VW's or Toyota's like sheep. Generic transport for the undiscriminating masses if you ask me, compared with a Subaru but each to their own.

The other important point to note and I'm only guessing here, but Subaru are not like most mass-market manufacturers that can supply as many cars as can be sold. The distributors over here had/have a limited number good times and bad. They do not have to discount to the extent the others to generate enough sales to keep operations afloat. Cars are like any consumer good, if you market yourself with cheap and cheerful "white goods" that is where public perception will take you. If you have got something different or more interesting, you charge a premium for it. Thats marketing after all.

And if the public do not appreciate the car and lump it in with all the dross, it will mean great bargains on the used market in two or three years time. You just might have to go to the UK to get your hands on one because historically Subaru owners keep their new cars longer than most. With good reason.

Padraig Mor

TomMc wrote: »

The problem is that in Ireland people put the Passat, A4 and Accord on a pedestal. So what happens is they get imported from the UK second hand far cheaper than their Irish equivalent on the used market. Whats more some rogues can clock them on the ferry over (quality plastics hide mileage better) and because many people over here are so brainwashed by badges or reputations for reliabilty (which are largely from previous decades), make a killing.

What people have to remember is that most of the competition have diesel models for donkeys years. Subaru merely two. You cannot change public perception so quickly when they perceive Subaru as a left-field choice which will be much more expensive to run based on petrol models down the years. Urban myths about badge kudos, reliability and all that mean the public will continue buying VW's or Toyota's like sheep. Generic transport for the undiscriminating masses if you ask me, compared with a Subaru but each to their own.

The other important point to note and I'm only guessing here, but Subaru are not like most mass-market manufacturers that can supply as many cars as can be sold. The distributors over here had/have a limited number good times and bad. They do not have to discount to the extent the others to generate enough sales to keep operations afloat. Cars are like any consumer good, if you market yourself with cheap and cheerful "white goods" that is where public perception will take you. If you have got something different or more interesting, you charge a premium for it. Thats marketing after all.

And if the public do not appreciate the car and lump it in with all the dross, it will mean great bargains on the used market in two or three years time. You just might have to go to the UK to get your hands on one because historically Subaru owners keep their new cars longer than most. With good reason.

I don't think anyone is denying that the Legacy is a good car - it is. It's just not 36 fecking grand good.

TomMc

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I don't think anyone is denying that the Legacy is a good car - it is. It's just not 36 fecking grand good.

Virtually no car is good value new as pretty much everything will lose half its value within 2 - 3 years.

At 35k for the saloon it has the same list price as mid-spec 2.0L diesel Mondeos, Passats, even the Citroen C5.

It only looks dear compared with say an Octavia or an Avensis, but then they are cheap to buy and so as common as muck. The Octavia is worthy but still utilitarian and bland (suits taxi drivers) and I wouldn't buy an Avensis at any price. The last one I drove (hire car for a week) was like riding a sit-on lawnmower. The perfect vehicle for those who see cars as mere transportation and nothing else.

But Subarus are like Automatics, you need to spend some time with them to appreciate what you have got. It is all too easy to dismiss something based on fleeting moments, urban myths, hearsay or glib generalisations. Without driving one day to day, coupled with the whole ownership experience, you lack the experience to have an informed opinion or truly value their worth.

The Legacy (like the Outback & Forester models) was always a car you bought for the long haul. It makes no sense buying new if you like to change every two or three years unless you buy same on the used market. But if like many owners in the past, you buy a new car every decade and are reasonably well off, they make perfect sense even at 35-37k. Your getting something that is a little bit more individual (non-conformist) and that will never be ten a penny.

pajo1981

Don;t mean to offend anyone, but for me Kanckers in imprezas have ruined the subaru badge.

Berty

TomMc wrote: »

Virtually no car is good value new as pretty much everything will lose half its value within 2 - 3 years.

Skoda Skoda - I know. :rolleyes:

The Superb was €37 last year and everything on it is the same save for a few new additions but now its selling for €29.

If it loses value in 2-3 years it will still make good money and still be a stonking car!

245

pajo1981 wrote: »

Don;t mean to offend anyone, but for me Kanckers in imprezas have ruined the subaru badge.

I dunno - they're not all bad:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/746201/9aee8471/subaru_trekt_vrachtwagen_door_sneeuw.html

pajo1981

245 wrote: »

I dunno - they're not all bad:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/746201/9aee8471/subaru_trekt_vrachtwagen_door_sneeuw.html

What they don't show you is that after micka and anto had finished towing him outa the slush they robbed him and burned out his truck.

unkel

TomMc wrote: »

But Subarus are like Automatics

Except Subaru still don't do automatics

TomMc wrote: »

they make perfect sense even at 35-37k. Your getting something that is a little bit more individual (non-conformist) and that will never be ten a penny.

The Saab gambit It might work. It mightn't. I wouldn't put my money on a strategy as risky as that. Subaru was on the path to win. They sold the Impreza diesel for 21k and the Legacy on the good side of 30k. This sold them cars - naturally - because they were great value for money. We all agree that Subaru buyers are generally very happy campers, so get new customers to buy Subarus at these low prices and they probably show great brand loyalty in the future. That's where the path to growth is. Increase market share and then increase prices slowly...

mumblin deaf ro

From reading SAAB message boards, a lot of modern SAAB drivers are switching to Subaru. For people who buy cars for their engineering, the Subaru seems like a good buy.

pburns

pajo1981 wrote: »

Don;t mean to offend anyone, but for me Kanckers in imprezas have ruined the subaru badge.

Well for me me-too band-wagon jumpers and sheer ubiquity have ruined VW/Audi badges...

mumblin deaf ro wrote: »

From reading SAAB message boards, a lot of modern SAAB drivers are switching to Subaru. For people who buy cars for their engineering, the Subaru seems like a good buy.

Given Saab's current predicament they're hardly an example to follow! Although I can see the upside of attracting ex-Saab buyers. Added to the loyal Subaruists it could be quite a good little niche. The new Leggie is somewhere betwen a 9-3 and 9-5 size-wise.

Subaru are slowly moving away from the boy-racery market as well and it's really only in Ireland Subaru have this issue. In Britain, they are so popular amongst the huntin-shootin-fishin brigade they have quite an upmarket (if utilitarian) image.

I also think some Accord customers might be attracted by a similarly reliable, well engineered, Japanese brand that has the AWD USP. Still thinked they've moved too far, too fast with the new pricing structure but time will tell and the market will decide what people are willing to pay.

If Subaru were to offer another 10-20 bhp come facelift time I'd certainly consider upgrading if the price was reasonable...

Lex Luthor

unkel wrote: »

They sold the Impreza diesel for 21k and the Legacy on the good side of 30k. This sold them cars - naturally - because they were great value for money. We all agree that Subaru buyers are generally very happy campers, so get new customers to buy Subarus at these low prices and they probably show great brand loyalty in the future. That's where the path to growth is. Increase market share and then increase prices slowly...

problem is they just didn't keep the prices low enough for long enough...

pburns wrote: »

If Subaru were to offer another 10-20 bhp come facelift time I'd certainly consider upgrading if the price was reasonable...

would you not consider just re-mapping to get your 20bhp? this is my plan once warranty runs out...i'd say there is at least another 30/35bhp untapped in this engine with another 50Nm

unkel

Lex Luthor wrote: »

problem is they just didn't keep the prices low enough for long enough...

Exactly. A few years (not a few months) would probably be enough to get a whole generation of new Subaru customers who would keep buying new Subarus for life.

Lex Luthor

Saw the saloon this morning in C&R for the first time in the flesh...

Do they have an icon for a head puking? :eek:

Don't like it...looks too much like the Avensis. Also heard it has gone up to Band D for emissions from Band C. That is going to scare people off even more if the looks of it hadn't already.

Definitely not on the Cool Wall anymore

Anan1

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. A few years (not a few months) would probably be enough to get a whole generation of new Subaru customers who would keep buying new Subarus for life.

I think you may have hit on the core of the problem here - a happy Subaru owner tends to keep their car for a long time.

pburns

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Saw the saloon this morning in C&R for the first time in the flesh...

Do they have an icon for a head puking? :eek:

Don't like it...looks too much like the Avensis. Also heard it has gone up to Band D for emissions from Band C. That is going to scare people off even more if the looks of it hadn't already.

Definitely not on the Cool Wall anymore

That's because they increased the size and weight for the lardy arsed Yanks. So emissions, tax and economy is up slightly. Power is the same so it'll be slower...

TBH I thought the Euro/Irish spec looked much better in the flesh than in photos I'd seen online but the increase in CO2/tax bands when everyone else is drastically cutting emissions is a retrograde step. Methinks that may be part of the reason the price increased so much (higher VRT) also.

I'm disappointed, I would have bought one at some stage if it was a similar to the current model.

mone

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Also heard it has gone up to Band D for emissions from Band C. That is going to scare people off even more if the looks of it hadn't already.

Definitely not on the Cool Wall anymore

The saloon is gone over Band C by just 1g/km. I'm surprised they didn't try some "Irish Spec" car to get it under that