prosecute them?

LostinBlanch

I'd wonder more about Cowen et als ties with Anglo. He is leading the charge to stop any enquiry.

jimmycrackcorm

We need a tribunal!!! Our Barristers and lawyers are feeling the pain and the media needs a guaranteed 10 years of news to report. The good news is it will only cost €300-500 million

Podman

It's obvious that if leaders are incapable of leading, they should be removed.

But when those same "leaders" are responsible for consistent mismanagement, corruption, and personal favoritism that goes against the constitution (whats left of it), they should have to answer for it.

We should get Judges from other countries to handle this.

deadhead13

We have Brian Cowen spinning away like mad, telling us that not having an inquiry is really in our own best interest because it could "damage confidence in Ireland". Whereas, you would have thought the best way to restore confidence would be an investigation into what happened, holding those responsible accountable (if not jail then at least the sack) and putting checks and balances in place so this won't happen again.

But the people with the power to set up that inquiry are also some of the people who would be subject to it. So, there is a clear conflict of interest here and I don't expect anything to happen until this shower are voted out of Government.

femur61

Are people not getting angry yet? i sure am but really don't know how to do anything about it.

CFlower

They worked the system for their own benefit. Certainly there should be a speedy examination of whether company or other law was broken and a swift jail or other suitable sentence if it was. The problem is bigger than the Irish law or Irish politicians and bankers.

The system, and the law, need to be changed. They are not up to the job.

CFlower

deadhead13 wrote: »

We have Brian Cowen spinning away like mad, telling us that not having an inquiry is really in our own best interest because it could "damage confidence in Ireland". Whereas, you would have thought the best way to restore confidence would be an investigation into what happened, holding those responsible accountable (if not jail then at least the sack) and putting checks and balances in place so this won't happen again.

But the people with the power to set up that inquiry are also some of the people who would be subject to it. So, there is a clear conflict of interest here and I don't expect anything to happen until this shower are voted out of Government.

+ 1

old boy

it will never happen, dont tell me that not one member of the opposition has not been involved. nice and sqeaky clean there has to be at least one under the law of averages. please remember it is the norm for politicians to keep their arses covered

Sleepy

hiorta wrote: »

So many folk thought they saw opportunities for increasing their personal worth and dived in headlong.
The result of greedy thinking is now evident.
Those who decided they had no need to get caught up in the madness are now reaping the benefit.
This is perhaps one oif the best opportunities to absorb a basic, but valuable lesson in both economics and in Life: there are NO free lunches, not now, not ever.

Unfortunately, quite a large number of Ireland's professional classes got that free lunch. Any of them with the same sense many posters on here had to recognise a bubble would have stashed their money. Many may have lost chunks of it through poor share investing but many others would have either invested sensibly (I know my mother managed some sensible foreign property deals before later getting her QFA) or stashed significant sums in high yield investment accounts in the very banks we're now bailing out.

I don't think any lesson will be learned from this boom is this: if you pull a stroke, be careful where you put the money afterwards.

CFlower

Sleepy wrote: »

Unfortunately, quite a large number of Ireland's professional classes got that free lunch. Any of them with the same sense many posters on here had to recognise a bubble would have stashed their money. Many may have lost chunks of it through poor share investing but many others would have either invested sensibly (I know my mother managed some sensible foreign property deals before later getting her QFA) or stashed significant sums in high yield investment accounts in the very banks we're now bailing out.

I don't think any lesson will be learned from this boom is this: if you pull a stroke, be careful where you put the money afterwards.

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

Between 2005 and 2007 Irish debt doubled, according to MacErlrean, the AIB whistleblower. He also says most of it went to less than 50 people. Company law prohibits reckless trading. If current law isn't strong enough to deal with people who obtained loans without a viable business plan and without sufficient collateral then the law should be changed. The Banks also took vast amounts of commission for lending money to thousands of people without due care to ensure that they were in the position to pay it back - after the Banks themselves had sold off their property at the top of the market. These people - bankers and a handful of developers/investors - have quite possibly created conditions for sovereign default by the Irish State and undoubtedly many people will be severely impoverished who did not create this risk. People will die, from lack of proper health and other services.

The majority has been financially assaulted by a tiny minority. This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Scofflaw

CFlower wrote: »

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

Between 2005 and 2007 Irish debt doubled, according to MacElready, the Central Bank whistleblower. He also says most of it went to less than 50 people. Company law prohibits reckless trading. If current law isn't strong enough to deal with people who obtained loans without a viable business plan and without sufficient collateral then the law should be changed. The Banks also took vast amounts of commission for lending money to thousands of people without due care to ensure that they were in the position to pay it back - after the Banks themselves had sold off their property at the top of the market. These people - bankers and a handful of developers/investors - have quite possibly created conditions for sovereign default by the Irish State and undoubtedly many people will be severely impoverished who did not create this risk. People will die, from lack of proper health and other services.

The majority has been financially assaulted by a tiny minority. This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Might one ask for a source for that?

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

CFlower wrote: »

This has to be accounted for and it won't happen under either an FF or FG government.

Well, in that case, we might as well forget about it. Whatever the chances of seeing FF reduced to a shadow of their former self, there is zero chance that both FF and FG will be.

View

Podman wrote: »

It's obvious that if leaders are incapable of leading, they should be removed.

But when those same "leaders" are responsible for consistent mismanagement, corruption, and personal favoritism that goes against the constitution (whats left of it), they should have to answer for it.

Other countries also have all of the above to greater or lesser degrees. The only remedy to the problem is that the leaders "should have to answer for it" at the ballot box.

Problem is, the electorate will probably return most of those who governed us so poorly with very healthy majorities. It seems to be actually benefical for many politicans here, to be regarded as a bit of a chancer and/or dodgy. We get what we vote for.

CFlower

Scofflaw wrote: »

Might one ask for a source for that?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Certainly, but this is the best I can do, as my source was RTE radio about a week ago.

It is well known that most of the large scale lending damage was done in 2-3 years, and by a small number of borrowers. NAMA targetted 50 main borrowers for its initial phase of "taking in charge". The Anglo Irish Bank, a very small operation, accounts for nearly half of the NAMA bad debt.

http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2009/may/24/whistleblower-mcerlean-is-vindicated/

CFlower

View wrote: »

Well, in that case, we might as well forget about it. Whatever the chances of seeing FF reduced to a shadow of their former self, there is zero chance that both FF and FG will be.

Difficult, I know, but the alternative is to build a new leadership that will act under the control of the majority.

Eoinsheehy

I'm undoubhtedly in. Infact can I be the person with the whip?

Sleepy

CFlower wrote: »

An interesting, infuriating and deeply cynical post.

The best case I have heard for serious and expertly targetted taxation and levies on the rich.

I don't think the targeting is possible tbh. Maybe a huge hike in DIRT? Might at least get the money invested into our economy but tbh, it's more likely to result in the assets getting invested abroad and further liquidity problems for the banks.

Targeting the rich, while popular with the middle and working class doesn't seem to have the potential to close the deficit via taxation and would probably be counter-active. I'd certainly like to see most, if not all, of the tax dodges removed though.

I was actually an optimist when I left school, the last ten years of living in Irish society has regretably given me no good reason to be anything but cynical

baubl

is there a connection between the government and the golden circle , ie, are there members of government, members of the golden circle

CFlower

baubl wrote: »

is there a connection between the government and the golden circle , ie, are there members of government, members of the golden circle

It used to be located, for part of the year, in the tent at the Galway races.

Podman

Yes.

I wonder if any of the government have taken any cuts whatsoever in this budget..?

They'd spend more on lunch than I'd have to survive on for a week, they represent no-one but themselves, big business, and the Illuminazi.

CFlower

chompy wrote: »

Yes.

I wonder if any of the government have taken any cuts whatsoever in this budget..?

They'd spend more on lunch than I'd have to survive on for a week, they represent no-one but themselves, big business, and the Illuminazi.

It is now known that Charlie McCreevy got a friendly terms bank loan of 1.5 million euro to buy a house at the K Club. Loans do not have to be declared in the Dail Register of Members Interests. I would like to know if any of the Cabinet members have had loans in the last two years.

baubl

CFlower wrote: »

It used to be located, for part of the year, in the tent at the Galway races.

so the Galway tent should be called the golden circle

Seth Brundle

CFlower wrote: »

It is now known that Charlie McCreevy got a friendly terms bank loan of 1.5 million euro to buy a house at the K Club. Loans do not have to be declared in the Dail Register of Members Interests. I would like to know if any of the Cabinet members have had loans in the last two years.

My understanding of it was that Charlie Mc got a loan of 1.6 mill for a house worth 1.5 mill!
(goes googling)
here we go...
(also, Finger's bank apparently never gave out 100% mortgages never mind more than this!)

Liam Byrne

kbannon wrote: »

Finger's bank apparently never gave out 100% mortgages never mind more than this!

Unfortunately, this might well be some of the thinking behind this; they can still "truthfully" state that they "never gave out 100% mortgages".

dan_d

Sean fitzpatrick, Liam carroll, hand in hand with the board of the DDDA, An Bord Pleanala, Fas, and the majority of developers and politicians - probably not limited to FF.
Delve into the background, and I'm sure you'll find the connections extend far deeper than most of us realise. Doesn't matter who did precisely what....they are all hand in glove.
White collar crime should now be defined in Ireland, along with the sentence it should carry. It's an excellent place to start.

jmayo

dan_d wrote: »

Sean fitzpatrick, Liam carroll, hand in hand with the board of the DDDA, An Bord Pleanala, Fas, and the majority of developers and politicians - probably not limited to FF.
Delve into the background, and I'm sure you'll find the connections extend far deeper than most of us realise. Doesn't matter who did precisely what....they are all hand in glove.
White collar crime should now be defined in Ireland, along with the sentence it should carry. It's an excellent place to start.

Eh you forgot Sean Mulryan, Sean Dunne, Johnny Ronan, Paddy Kelly, biggest ffer of the lot Bernard McNamara, Peter Cosgrave, Gerry Gannon, Paddy McKillen.
all developers funding ff TDs and MEPs.

One even got invited to bertie's UK Houses of Parliament and the US Houses speeches. :rolleyes:

Funny thing is most of the above have had huge links to Anglo. :rolleyes:
AFAIK some even bought Anglo shares using Anglo loans.
Also a lot have homes at the K Club ala McGreevey.
It is one big circle jerk. :rolleyes:

bush Baby

It would take someone to define the point where treason starts. No lawyer in this country would want to take that one on!

spurious

Sure aren't they great lads anyway and sure won't we put Bertie in the Park and at least 25% of us (guaranteed) will vote for the soldiers of destiny again.

This is Ireland. We get exactly what we deserve.

bush Baby

CFlower wrote: »

It is now known that Charlie McCreevy got a friendly terms bank loan of 1.5 million euro to buy a house at the K Club. Loans do not have to be declared in the Dail Register of Members Interests. I would like to know if any of the Cabinet members have had loans in the last two years.

Have you got a source for that?

bush Baby

spurious wrote: »

Sure aren't they great lads anyway and sure won't we put Bertie in the Park and at least 25% of us (guaranteed) will vote for the soldiers of destiny again.

This is Ireland. We get exactly what we deserve.

The park is probably the safest place for Bertie, it will keep him quiet. As for the "soldiers of destiny", yep, spot on there