Israel threatens another large-scale Gaza war

FlutterinBantam

Not this poster MM

dlofnep

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've always maintained a dislike for 'effect' being taken into consideration when looking at an attempted event. For example, the only difference between murder and attempted murder is that in the second case, the victim got lucky, or the attacker was incompetent. The desired endstate and mindset of the attacker, however, remained the same. However, in our society, for some reason we reward the antagonist's poor luck or incapability by cutting them slack.

Can anyone explain the logic behind that?

NTM

I think that's a fair analysis. An attempt is still an attempt, the intent is there. To attempt wrong, or to succeed in doing wrong is wrong.

Johro

There is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Israeli forces have bulldozed homes, destroyed farmland and crops, poisoned or otherwise destroyed water supplies and went out of their way to make life for a growing population of a comparatively small strip of land as difficult and painful as possible. Has anyone here actually seen footage of the war on Gaza other than RTE or BBC coverage? Because there are other news sources with very different reports on what really goes on there. Spread your net a little wider. I saw a bit of footage of a group of Palestinian women being given the choice of staying in their homes and being bulldozed over or moving out and being shot on the street. They chose to stay in their homes, possibly thinking that the Israeli soldiers wouldn't actually do what they threatened to do. The bulldozers moved in and buried them in the rubble. I would defy anyone to come up with a justification for such an act. A lot of people don't understand how Israeli's see Palestinians. They see them as vermin, lower than rats, or dogs. That's just how it is. There are people in Israel very ashamed of what is being done in their name, but they are a minority, thanks mostly to government propaganda. Human shields?? Palestinians have no choice but to fight out of their own back yards, there is nowhere else to go. What would you do if you lived on the Gaza strip? No food, no water, no home, no security, no hope. Relying on supplies being smuggled in through the tunnel networks, which are continuously being bombed. Only today in fact. (Al Jazeera England Bulletin) Just look at the number of deaths on both sides. 1200 or more Palestinians of which hundreds were children, 13 Israeli's, most of which were soldiers. The treatment of Gaza residents is an outrage. It seems the Jewish nation hasn't learned much from the past. There is no glory here. It's about time the 'Us and Them' attitude died an ugly death. Everywhere.

FlutterinBantam

And these guys are dedicated to the destruction and wipe out of Israel.!!

How disillusional and idealistic can you get.

Run_to_da_hills

I see Israel is about to roll out gas masks to its entire population, they must be expecting something.

Manic Moran

They do it every few years. Makes sure that the ones the population have are serviceable, also makes sure that anyone who for some reason doesn't have one (eg they were children last time there was a roll-out) also have them. Makes it a lot simpler to just roll out to 'stragglers' when there is a specific threat. Fitting an entire population for masks is going to take time which you probably don't have when the threat is obvious.

NTM

darrenh

Johro wrote: »

A lot of people don't understand how Israeli's see Palestinians. They see them as vermin, lower than rats, or dogs. That's just how it is. There are people in Israel very ashamed of what is being done in their name, but they are a minority, thanks mostly to government propaganda

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

anonymous_joe

darrenh wrote: »

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

My ex's sister-in-law was Israeli. And she was lovely. I met a mean Palestinian once too. Bit of a jerk. Not that he was really a Palestinian, he was a rich little príck from London.

Still means nothing in the greater context of the conflict.

Two neighbours who hate each other, both claiming the same land, etc. It's not going to change.

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I see Israel is about to roll out gas masks to its entire population, they must be expecting something.

They always expect something. Gas masks have a limited shelf life, or so I'm told. Presumabily they decided the last roll out had expired.

Or MM is correct.

Johro

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And these guys are dedicated to the destruction and wipe out of Israel.!!

How disillusional and idealistic can you get.

That's crap. There are always some hardline individuals around, the majority of Palestinians just want their own Palestinian state. Which they used to have until the Jewish people moved in and drove them out in a manner very reminiscent of a certain nazi ideology.

Boston

Johro wrote: »

That's crap. There are always some hardline individuals around, the majority of Palestinians just want their own Palestinian state. Which they used to have until the Jewish people moved in and drove them out in a manner very reminiscent of a certain nazi ideology.

GENOCIDE!!!!

Anyway, you clearly know nothing about the circimstances leading to the current situation. The wars and what not.

Johro

Manic Moran wrote: »

They do it every few years. Makes sure that the ones the population have are serviceable, also makes sure that anyone who for some reason doesn't have one (eg they were children last time there was a roll-out) also have them. Makes it a lot simpler to just roll out to 'stragglers' when there is a specific threat. Fitting an entire population for masks is going to take time which you probably don't have when the threat is obvious.

NTM

And it keeps them paranoid. Always helps when you want to keep your people committed to a cause. Look at Bush and his terrorist propaganda in the US. People were afraid to open their mail.

Boston

Johro wrote: »

And it keeps them paranoid. Always helps when you want to keep your people committed to a cause. Look at Bush and his terrorist propaganda in the US. People were afraid to open their mail.

You act like they haven't been attacked before.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

GENOCIDE!!!!

Anyway, you clearly know nothing about the circimstances leading to the current situation. The wars and what not.

What, like the circumstances that are still there in Israel today? There are Palestinians still living in Israel but very much as second class citizens. I'm not talking about genocide. I'm talking about treating a people as if they were an underclass, to be driven out. Like the Jews were in Nazi Germany. In establishing the state of Israel the Jewish people did the same to the Palestinians.

Boston

Nah, like the 1948 War initiated by the Arabs.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

You act like they haven't been attacked before.

Of course they have. But it's a little OTT. You'd swear the whole population of Israel were living in fear, which is how their government would like it to be. Keeping them hating keeps them in power. A scared population is so much easier to manipulate. Just like scare tactics worked for Bush.

Boston

Have you ever lived there? I don't see how you're in a position to determine if something is OTT.

Nodin

Boston wrote: »

Have you ever lived there? I don't see how you're in a position to determine if something is OTT.

Well, if you look at the casualty figures, its fairly obvious.

As for Nazi policy, its obviously not Genocide but 'Lebensraum'.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

Have you ever lived there? I don't see how you're in a position to determine if something is OTT.

Have you seen the news? How many Israeli's have actually been killed by Palestinian rocket attacks?- which are pathetic by the way and do nothing to help the situation I agree, but Israel's war on Gaza was totally disproportionate, it's tanks and fighter planes versus boys throwing rocks. Add to that the total destruction of any infrastructure and services in Gaza. It's not about tit for tat, it's about wiping out their means of survival. There is no excuse for bombing schools and hospitals and destroying ambulances. It's more about the systematic removal of the Palestinian people from what soil they have left.

The Saint

Johro wrote: »

That's crap. There are always some hardline individuals around, the majority of Palestinians just want their own Palestinian state. Which they used to have until the Jewish people moved in and drove them out in a manner very reminiscent of a certain nazi ideology.

Johro wrote: »

What, like the circumstances that are still there in Israel today? There are Palestinians still living in Israel but very much as second class citizens. I'm not talking about genocide. I'm talking about treating a people as if they were an underclass, to be driven out. Like the Jews were in Nazi Germany. In establishing the state of Israel the Jewish people did the same to the Palestinians.

I really wish people wouldn't use the Nazi agalogy when referring to this conflict, or most conflicts for that matter. I think it really detracts from the debate and just makes it more emotive and less rational. Just my opinion.

Boston

Johro wrote: »

Have you seen the news? How many Israeli's have actually been killed by Palestinian rocket attacks?- which are pathetic by the way and do nothing to help the situation I agree, but Israel's war on Gaza was totally disproportionate, it's tanks and fighter planes versus boys throwing rocks. Add to that the total destruction of any infrastructure and services in Gaza. It's not about tit for tat, it's about wiping out their means of survival. There is no excuse for bombing schools and hospitals and destroying ambulances. It's more about the systematic removal of the Palestinian people from what soil they have left.

If it was boys throwing rocks, there wouldn't be a problem.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

Nah, like the 1948 War initiated by the Arabs.

'Haganah', the Jewish terrorist organisation, (yes, Palestinians don't have a monopoly on 'terrorists) had been fighting Palestinian Arabs well before the war started. What about why the war started?

Boston

Johro wrote: »

'Haganah', the Jewish terrorist organisation, (yes, Palestinians don't have a monopoly on 'terrorists) had been fighting Palestinian Arabs well before the war started. What about why the war started?

I think it had something to do with the Romans.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

If it was boys throwing rocks, there wouldn't be a problem.

Ya didn't read the 'Palestinian rocket attacks' bit then..

Boston

Johro wrote: »

Ya didn't read the 'Palestinian rocket attacks' bit then..

I was confused by it, I mean you acknowledged it in one part of the post and then pretend its only " boys throwing rocks" in the next.

Johro

The Saint wrote: »

I really wish people wouldn't use the Nazi agalogy when referring to this conflict, or most conflicts for that matter. I think it really detracts from the debate and just makes it more emotive and less rational. Just my opinion.

You're probably right. I can't help seeing some distinct similarities though. The problem here is that it's hate that is driving the conflict. But you're right. Apologies.

Johro

Boston wrote: »

I was confused by it, I mean you acknowledged it in one part of the post and then pretend its only " boys throwing rocks" in the next.

By the time the Israeli army was all over Gaza bulldozing the place then pretty much, yeah. I do acknowledge the rocket attacks, but they just gave the Israeli authorities the excuse to go to war in the first place. They were and are pathetic and should stop, but they hardly have Israel quaking in its boots. Im talking about the disproportionate response to it all.

Manic Moran

How many Israeli's have actually been killed by Palestinian rocket attacks?- which are pathetic by the way and do nothing to help the situation I agree

I've been shot at a few times. The fact that the opposition missed didn't necessarily make me feel any more comfortable about it every time I go out and about. They get it right/lucky occasionally.

NTM

Johro

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've been shot at a few times. The fact that the opposition missed didn't necessarily make me feel any more comfortable about it every time I go out and about. They get it right/lucky occasionally.

NTM

Sorry to hear that. Equally, plenty of Palestinians being shot at through link fences. It doesn't change my argument. Also, the fact Israel wouldn't let in any foreign media speaks volumes.

arybvtcw0eolkf

darrenh wrote: »

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

Did you travel in Israel or met Israeli's on your travels?.

Sorry for going off topic for a moment, anyone who visits Israel will come across as fruit (from the cactus plant) called a Sabres.

Israeli's are often compared to the Sabres fruit, they're tough & thorny on the outside whilst sweet & soft on the inside.

Just thought I'd throw that in for anyone wishing to travel to Israel.

BlaasForRafa

Johro wrote: »

Sorry to hear that. Equally, plenty of Palestinians being shot at through link fences. It doesn't change my argument. Also, the fact Israel wouldn't let in any foreign media speaks volumes.

Israel learned from its mistakes in previous operations. Having media in a war zone can lead to demoralisation at home if there are idf casualties, also if media are accidentaly hit during an operation then Israel would have gotten the blame.

Hamas declared before the Gaza incursion that it would become Israel's Stalingrad .ie that it would become embroiled there in a grinding house to house fight incurring enormous casualties. The IDF trained and practiced the tactics which would insure maximum damage to Hamas with minimum IDF casualties. The fact that so few Israelis were killed seems to be something which really pissed off the pro-palestinians.

BlaasForRafa

Johro wrote: »

Of course they have. But it's a little OTT. You'd swear the whole population of Israel were living in fear, which is how their government would like it to be. Keeping them hating keeps them in power. A scared population is so much easier to manipulate. Just like scare tactics worked for Bush.

How does it keep them in power exactly? Kadima/Labour lost power and Bibi was elected at the last election.

BlaasForRafa

darrenh wrote: »

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

I've met lots of Irish on holidays and many of them have been rude, ignorant, obnoxious, drunken oafish c**ts who have no regard for the native population of the country they are in. Should I use those experience to encapsulate a whole people?

Also did you have anything to contribute to the actual topic of the thread ( which if anyone remembers was about a supposed all out Israeli attack on Gaza which never happened), hmm?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The fact that so few Israelis were killed seems to be something which really pissed off the pro-palestinians.

The Pro-Israel crowd seemed to be happy with all the dead Palestinians. Oh wait a second, what I just typed is sheer bloody nonsense, just like whats quoted above.

OldJay

darrenh wrote: »

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

Israelis are not a 'race'. Unless you mean Jews?
Israelis, as you'll know given your apparent extensive travelling through there, are made up of people from many different nations. Its a very tribal and very divided country.
And yes, it would be wrong to brand "them all" (Israelis) as you do. Maybe you're just sitting at the wrong "worldwide hostel tables"? lol

What this has to do with the delusional ramblings of an Iranian propagandic TV channel though escapes me.

darrenh

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I've met lots of Irish on holidays and many of them have been rude, ignorant, obnoxious, drunken oafish c**ts who have no regard for the native population of the country they are in. Should I use those experience to encapsulate a whole people?

Also did you have anything to contribute to the actual topic of the thread ( which if anyone remembers was about a supposed all out Israeli attack on Gaza which never happened), hmm?

Someone said they see Palestinians as rats or dogs. Lesser human beings than them. I said they see everyone like that.
I've bet you met plenty of ignorant irish, but was it a good 90% of them who behaved like this towards other? I doubt it. I cant believe there is even people in this country who defend their actions. It's sad.

Nodin

darrenh wrote: »

Someone said they see Palestinians as rats or dogs. Lesser human beings than them. I said they see everyone like that.
I've bet you met plenty of ignorant irish, but was it a good 90% of them who behaved like this towards other? I doubt it. I cant believe there is even people in this country who defend their actions. It's sad.

Sweeping generalisations don't help anyone.

Mahatma coat

Jaysus, Israel is a JEWISH STATE, and to be Jewish properly you need to have Jewish ancestry if ever there was a definition of religious nation state thats it

whynotwhycanti

Nodin wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations don't help anyone.

I agree but the same generalizations are made about the Palestinians, that they want Israel wiped off the map, that they all want to perform jihad etc etc. Outside of the militants, the majority of Palestinians are people who want basic things in life, security, food, but these have all been deprived of them by Israel.
To the poster who doesn't like the nazi analogy used sometimes, my advice to you, f$%k right off and don't bother posting on this issue. You find it too emotive, do you not think it is an emotional issue, over 300 hundred innocent Palestinian children killed. How are we ever to learn from the horrors of what happened in WW2 if you don't like it being brought up? The fact is that they are two different cases that have similarities, and therefore can be referred to. If you don't like that because it may not agree with your opinion on the situation then tough luck.

I never would agree with suicide bombers or the firing of rockets into Israel but the fact of the matter is that the Palestinians are illegally occupied by a much stronger nation, both economically and militarily. They have resorted to coaxing young distraught Palestinians who have lost family members into being suicide bombers and fire rockets across the border. The fact remains the same that rockets will continue to be fired while Israel illegally expand its territories, and Israel will respond to these rockets attacks with laser f*&king guided missiles that blow up ambulances, schools. Facts speak for themselves, 12 Israelis dead, most soldiers, most by friendly fire, over 1200 Palestinians dead, mostly children. You can't defend these figures and if you do you have disrespected all those innocent people that have died on both sides.

Nodin

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I agree but the same generalizations are made about the Palestinians, that they want Israel wiped off the map, that they all want to perform jihad etc etc.

Thats no reason to sink to the same level.

whynotwhycanti

Nodin wrote: »

Thats no reason to sink to the same level.

Thats true and well said.

I get so annoyed reading this thread sometimes. There is a real crisis going on over there, and i can only imagine that similar debates happen in the corridors of power and as oppossed to resolving the situation, instead we have people justifying Israels response. The figures speak for themselves, without even looking into other figures on malnutrition, infantile mortality etc. It is a sad and depressing situation to read some of the posts here and really leaves you with no hope for the future. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is going on but there is still wrong and a right and the the killing of over a thousand palestinian civilains is plain wrong, not to mention how every aspect of their life is controlled by the IDF in what i would consider a glorified ghetto. Oh and what about the illegal occupation, expansion of territories etc etc. I am sure the pro-Israel supporters have some typical propoganda sh&^e to respond to my post but i can already envisage what it will be and before you even respond, let me say i have heard it all before.

KeithAFC

darrenh wrote: »

They see most of the world that way. I traveled for 10 months and I have never in my life met a more rude, arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious race. It would be wrong to brand them all like that but a good 90% that I came across were downright rude people. I even met sound Israelis that said "I'm not like the others!". They act like they are the 'Chosen Ones'. It is a common conversation around hostel tables worldwide about their behavior towards others.

I will say though I did meet some really sound cool ones but very few.

Who can blame them for being miserable *****.

What a ****e hole that part of the world is. If it was me, i'd invade the whole middle east and take over the land, kill anyone i don't like and build my Alexandria.

The Saint

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

To the poster who doesn't like the nazi analogy used sometimes, my advice to you, f$%k right off and don't bother posting on this issue. You find it too emotive, do you not think it is an emotional issue, over 300 hundred innocent Palestinian children killed. How are we ever to learn from the horrors of what happened in WW2 if you don't like it being brought up? The fact is that they are two different cases that have similarities, and therefore can be referred to. If you don't like that because it may not agree with your opinion on the situation then tough luck.

Wow, aren't you a pleasant little thing. I take it you have not gone to the bother of reading all of this thread or any of my posts?

I don't think I'll take you up on your generous offer to "fuck right off" as I've been happily contributing to this thread more than you have. Now you might want to cool down and wash that sand from your vagina before it gets really annoying. :rolleyes:

OldJay

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I get so annoyed reading this thread sometimes

Maybe you find this thread (referring to a particular article of Iranian TV propaganda) just "too emotive"? :rolleyes:

whynotwhycanti

The Saint wrote: »

Wow, aren't you a pleasant little thing. I take it you have not gone to the bother of reading all of this thread or any of my posts?

I don't think I'll take you up on your generous offer to "fuck right off" as I've been happily contributing to this thread more than you have. Now you might want to cool down and wash that sand from your vagina before it gets really annoying. :rolleyes:

I have read the majoirty of posts on this thread. I believe there are alot of similaities and if a poster wants to provide that analogy so be it, just because you find it emotive is no reason to disregard it.

BlaasForRafa

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Jaysus, Israel is a JEWISH STATE, and to be Jewish properly you need to have Jewish ancestry if ever there was a definition of religious nation state thats it

And so what?

The Saint

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I have read the majoirty of posts on this thread. I believe there are alot of similaities and if a poster wants to provide that analogy so be it, just because you find it emotive is no reason to disregard it.

The reason i'm annoyed is becasue the sand is on your mums vagina, please ask her to remove it

I can't really see you lasting long here.

whynotwhycanti

The Saint wrote: »

I can't really see you lasting long here.

You are the one who said for me to 'remove sand from my vagina' as you didn't like the fact that i criticised you, albeit it agressively, for dismissing the analogy used by another poster. I think this thread is frustrating enough without silly side issue and petty squabling happening so for whats it worth sincere apologies on my part for any of my offensive comments to you.

whynotwhycanti

Justind wrote: »

Maybe you find this thread (referring to a particular article of Iranian TV propaganda) just "too emotive"? :rolleyes:

i do find it too emotive. I find the killing of innocent people on both sides a distressing and depressing thing. i find the death of over a thousand palestinians civilians and 12 isrealis in the last offensive as pretty shocking. I find even worse though the defense of this killing.

BlaasForRafa

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I agree but the same generalizations are made about the Palestinians, that they want Israel wiped off the map, that they all want to perform jihad etc etc. Outside of the militants, the majority of Palestinians are people who want basic things in life, security, food, but these have all been deprived of them by Israel.
To the poster who doesn't like the nazi analogy used sometimes, my advice to you, f$%k right off and don't bother posting on this issue. You find it too emotive, do you not think it is an emotional issue, over 300 hundred innocent Palestinian children killed. How are we ever to learn from the horrors of what happened in WW2 if you don't like it being brought up? The fact is that they are two different cases that have similarities, and therefore can be referred to. If you don't like that because it may not agree with your opinion on the situation then tough luck.

I never would agree with suicide bombers or the firing of rockets into Israel but the fact of the matter is that the Palestinians are illegally occupied by a much stronger nation, both economically and militarily. They have resorted to coaxing young distraught Palestinians who have lost family members into being suicide bombers and fire rockets across the border. The fact remains the same that rockets will continue to be fired while Israel illegally expand its territories, and Israel will respond to these rockets attacks with laser f*&king guided missiles that blow up ambulances, schools. Facts speak for themselves, 12 Israelis dead, most soldiers, most by friendly fire, over 1200 Palestinians dead, mostly children. You can't defend these figures and if you do you have disrespected all those innocent people that have died on both sides.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your ranting anyway.

It makes me laugh at the illogic when I see people complaining about the IDF using advanced weapons. There would be a hell of a lot more casualties if they used iron bombs.

And there were 13 Israeli deaths, 10 of which were IDF personnel, perhaps you would have preferred more Israeli deaths to even things up? Also "most" of the palestinian deaths were not children, most were Hamas operatives and (Hamas) policemen.