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Extremist Muslims in Britain and elsewhere

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    #62
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    legal-eagle wrote: »
    As an aside what part of society would be most racist in Ireland and the UK do you think?

    Dubs, culchies, taxi drivers, the auld biddy down the road . . . ?
    What a stupid bloody question.


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    #63
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Terrontress wrote: »
    Because if you take the likes of the tube bombers, they were born and bred in England so there is a very real similarity. As I said, if the majority of Ireland, UK or anywhere chose to have a peaceful, islamic republic then I'd have no issue with that.
    Does that mean that if the majorty of people want a peaceful christian only society you would have no issues with that, or what if they went about pursuing a white only society through peaceful and democratic means would that be ok with you to?


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    #64
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    What about slaves in America, they didn't like their country, should they just up sticks and go back to Africa? Well guess what, they didnt have the option. Perhaps they should try to organise themselves to fight the repressive system they found themselves under? Crazy idea I know.

    And your point in the above quoted post is based on a generalisation, what about those who couldn't afford to move? 'Points' like that based on assumptions aren't worth a thing.


    Thats a pretty poor comparision given that those slaves were held there against there will for generations compared to the muslims in Britian who chose to go there.

    In fact given that most muslims in Britian are recent immigrants to the country it would be easier for the extremist ones who do not like the british way of life to move back to their families country as they would still have close relatives living there.


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    #65
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    aurelius79 wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point. Extremists, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. are all sociopaths. They do these things because they are sociopaths, not because of what religion they are. Religion is just an easy "excuse" for the things they do and say.

    Good point, and I think I'd agree. However, what would you define an extremist as?


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    #66
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dotsie~tmp wrote: »
    This is perverse. Muslims come to western nations, declare they want to turn them into the miserable backward nations......

    All muslims?


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    #67
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    legal-eagle wrote: »
    I'm really annoyed at some of the replies here, eh please don't make me out to be some sort of BNP nut.

    I'm making a very valid point, If I were to go to Saudi Arabia (USA's Business partners and close allies) and kick up about lack of freedom of speech or my right to pray in a Catholic Church (As it happens I'm Agnostic) I would be booted out double quick with minimal fuss.

    Now turn the situation around to a Muslim in Britain, Ireland or any Democratic Western Nation with the same ideals. What happens?

    Your OP was fine. However now you've entered 'but if Saudi do it' territory.....

    Why should we define ourselves by what Saudi do?


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    #68
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Thats a pretty poor comparision given that those slaves were held there against there will for generations compared to the muslims in Britian who chose to go there.

    In fact given that most muslims in Britian are recent immigrants to the country it would be easier for the extremist ones who do not like the british way of life to move back to their families country as they would still have close relatives living there.

    It would be easier yes, but you are generalising for many, many people and no doubt in that group there are people who cannot return for various reasons, so what are they supposed to do? If they want to preserve their own culture, practise their religion and get involved in the democratic process of a country then I say have at it.


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    #69
    Rossibaby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Rossibaby


    legal-eagle wrote: »
    Rossibaby, you're too intelligent for me pal (And everyone else). Its good to see you have all the answers there buddy. Good Job but unfortunately most people I reckon would disagree with your sentiments (which is probably why you hold those views).

    As an aside what part of society would be most racist in Ireland and the UK do you think?

    I don't hold certain political views because people disagree with me, that is nonsense. How about you play the ball and not the man, tackle what I said instead of making pointless assumptions about me on a personal level, it's the sign of a lost debate. So are you not going to address my post about Saudi Arabia?

    And as for your question there, I would say the ignorant are the most racist in Ireland and England. I was canvassing for the local elections in June for instance and knocked on a womans door, asking had she any issues she was worried about. Now consider this was in the middle of all the consternation over the recession she said her main issue was the fact that an African lady who was here illegally recieved the backing of the local mayor for her bravery etc

    It seems you will always have knuckledraggers, forget the economic ruin of our country, theres a coloured lady who shouldn't be in my town in my town.
    Luckily this view is not so prevalent across Ireland, in that sense we are very lucky. Economic recessions are very dangerous if a proper assessment isn't forwarded as to its cause, because otherwise it gives the likes of the BNP room to breathe and spread their bile. It is not the fault of asylum seekers that we have an economic world crisis in capitalism, but many would like to say this is a factor. In fact these people seeking to build a better life for themselves expose that the system just isn't working, and if I was in their shoes I'd do the same and so would nayone, the Irish did it for long enough.


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    #70
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    It would be easier yes, but you are generalising for many, many people and no doubt in that group there are people who cannot return for various reasons, so what are they supposed to do? If they want to preserve their own culture, practise their religion and get involved in the democratic process of a country then I say have at it.

    There may be no problem with that when it comes to normal Muslims but do you really think those who wish death to infidels and to send women and gay people back to the stone age should be tolerated?


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    #71
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dsmythy wrote: »
    There may be no problem with that when it comes to normal Muslims but do you really think those who wish death to infidels and to send women and gay people back to the stone age should be tolerated?

    Legally: Yes.
    In terms of speech: I have my right to criticism, and I'm fairly sure I'd use it.


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    #72
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Rossibaby wrote: »
    It would be easier yes, but you are generalising for many, many people and no doubt in that group there are people who cannot return for various reasons, so what are they supposed to do? If they want to preserve their own culture, practise their religion and get involved in the democratic process of a country then I say have at it.

    The problem is the extremists usually don't want to take part in the democratic process. The extremists are more likely to call for and promote hatred and violence towards non-muslims in Britain.


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    #73
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    First of all, it's my understanding that it's the ideal for all muslims to live together in a muslim society. I think this is expressed in the Koran
    Rossibaby wrote: »
    Saudi Arabia is a disgrace, why would we possibly derive our own standards from there? Why compare ourselfs to a land ruled by reactionary and religious zealots which encompasses great human rights abuses and backward outlooks toward the role of women in society and towards gay rights? It says alot that you think we should behave in Ireland more like Saudi Arabia:o

    Well then why let them set up a madrassa here?


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    #74
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    LostinBlanch wrote: »
    Well then why let them set up a madrassa here?

    Why not? If the Government is serious about freedom of religious expression, there is no reason why one could limit this reasonably.


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    #75
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Why not? If the Government is serious about freedom of religious expression, there is no reason why one could limit this reasonably.

    The fact that Saudi Arabia is behind the initiative is a worry. If it's Saudi backed they will be taught the Saudi view of Islam.


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    #76
    Kit1976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Kit1976


    dsmythy wrote: »
    Maybe because they are unhappy. The extremists that is, who wish to bring their form of Islamic law through any means possible. The target of the OP who didn't show any antipathy to peaceful non-murdering Muslims. Of course you wanted to throw 'racist' in there so well done you've acheived it thus devaluing your post to me which otherwise makes a fair point.

    Listen, you can pretty much take it as a given that anyone who throws in the old 'I'm not racist but...' line is a racist. In this case, what he's pretty much saying is that Muslim people can't really be British even if they're born in Britain and have British citizenship, and that they only have the right to live in the country in which they are born provided they put up and shut up. Which means that it's a different rule for British Muslims. And that's kind of racist, even if the OP's scholarly mind hasn't quite worked that out.

    If people are unhappy where they're living, it's up to them to decide whether to move, not up to the OP. And if they're British and want to live in a different kind of Britain, why are they the only British people exempt from producing leaflets agitating for change or expressing their opinion within the law?


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    #77
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    The fact that Saudi Arabia is behind the initiative is a worry. If it's Saudi backed they will be taught the Saudi view of Islam.

    The question we are having is how much power should the State have in religion. Should it be free enterprise, or should it be restricted. I'm not so sure it should be restricted.

    If we disagree with the views of this particular form of Islam, then we as people should criticise it rather than having the State do the work?

    A similar criticism could be made of Evangelical Christianity, one could assume that it is an American thing.

    The one thing I will say is, if the school doesn't use the Irish curriculum, it shouldn't receive state funding and it should be taxed like all other schools that don't use our curriculum.


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    #78
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,848 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Kit1976 wrote: »
    I'm always fascinated by how racists can never spell, punctuate or form sentences
    And I'm always fascinated how people cannot properly define racism. By definintion, you cannot be racist against Islam, because Islam is not a race. It's a religion. And to some, an ideology. And for some variants of this ideology, a negative view is not only not racist, but perfectly rational given the evidence on offer.

    "F***ing brown skinned dune coons" is racist.
    "I reject Wahabbist Islam because after examining its values and world view, I consider it abhorant" is not racist.
    Why should they live in Afghanistan if they are British?
    In some cases, the fact that they are born in the U.K. is the only connection they have to the country. Ditto for Germany, France etc.
    aurelius79 wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point. Extremists, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. are all sociopaths. They do these things because they are sociopaths, not because of what religion they are. Religion is just an easy "excuse" for the things they do and say.
    Then how come most people were able to guess by common logic, the religion of the recent attempted airplane bomber on Christmas Day, if terrorism has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with sociopathy? Or were you (in Chamberlain-esque naivete) genuinely surprised to find out that the attempted bomber was not (for example) a Buddhist?
    Rossibaby wrote: »
    'adapting to the culture of the host country', what muck is this? And what is wrong with a multi-cultural society?
    Multi culturalism even at the best of times, can only work when you're sharing a society with equal (South/Central American, Eastern European, Russian, Filipino, some African) cultures, or superior ones (Japanese, Buddhist etc). Even then, it would damage social cohesion, as natives and immigrant communities would never integrate and the potential for cultural exchange would be lost.

    But of course, that's not the case, as some cultures (that embrace jihad, arranged marriages, honor killings, burkas etc) are dramatically inferior, so we have large ghettos where not only the host culture, but even its laws and basic standards of civilisation, are not welcome. See here.


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    #79
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    ah the old Superior/inferior - races/cultures/dogmas argument, dangerous territory that.

    the question that has come up a few times here is

    what IS 'Western' Culture?



    These muzziefundies seem to know, they want to destroy it, right, So they must know what it is they are attackin, Cos I'm Fvkkered if know.


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    #80
    uberpixie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭uberpixie


    Mahatma coat wrote: »

    what IS 'Western' Culture?

    These muzziefundies seem to know, they want to destroy it, right, So they must know what it is they are attackin, Cos I'm Fvkkered if know.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141024356/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=471057153&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0755309855&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=197E5WTF1QR9WC6FTYTF

    Well according to one chap in Iraq that the author of the above book ("on the road to kandahar") interviewed: freedom to chose who you marry, the freedom of education, economic prosperity, the ability to have a comfortable life. He described life in Iraq as a straight line, no flexibility and little opportunity.

    The chap in question was an Iraqi who initially welcomed the Americans, but turned terrorist when he became unhappy with their occupation. He also pointed out in any of the home grown terrorist groups in Iraq they have a wide mix of people who fight for different reasons: some are ex army and are angry because they lost their jobs, some are religious, some are political, some are angry at the American population and see being occupied by an Army that has black people in is is a great shame (so racist!). He also saw himself as a freedom fighter and didn't like the Al Qaeda groups and had nothing to do with them as he thought they were bloodthirsty and were total terrorists who didn't care who died!

    Good book and well worth a read: author has spent a long time in Muslim countries and gives a very balanced view.
    He points out the blindingly obvious (which needs to be pointed out...): not all Muslims are the same, not all people who decide to become terrorists are the same and do so for different reasons.


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    #81
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    yjeah but thats still an otside take on it, I'm buggered if I could tie it down to anything other than vauge concepts and notions, actually on the topic of Books about the thing I read one of Geroge Sorros' books about something simmilar, when they started the open society movement in eastern europe it was pretty straightforward as to what it stood for, and end to the old closed society soviet system, but when the Soveiet era ended they found themselves at a loss as to what was next, sorta


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    #82
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Terrontress wrote: »
    A lot of them have been born in the UK and want to see change bought about. Blowing people up is wrong, regardless of who is doing but I'd support anyone who wishes to bring about an islamic state by peaceful means.

    There have been a lot of unionists said the same about Republicans in Northern Ireland. If they find the government here so repulsive, why don't move south of the border instead of trying to effect change by undemocratic means.
    Those unionists would be right. If you don't like our way of living in the UK or the west in general, they know where to go. They can **** off to some **** hole like Iran which i would not step a foot in.


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    #83
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    I've found an answer to the OP's question straight from the horses mouth itself no less.

    "In conclusion it is incumbent on the people of Britain and moreover the whole of the world to submit to the Will of Allah (SWT), and testify that there is none truly worthy of worship except Allah (SWT) and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His Final Messenger and furthermore implement the Shari'ah (Islamic Law) of Muhammad (pbuh) as a matter of obedience to their Creator."

    Rest here --> http://www.islam4uk.com/non-muslims/246-why-we-do-not-get-out-of-your-country


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    #84
    legal-eagle
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭legal-eagle


    Thought I'd bump this after seeing this evenings news. A load of extremist Muslims with banners like "Europe you will pay. Magnificent 19 are on their way" now I ask you why again why don't these people go live in a strict Islamic state that they crave?

    Funny how they enjoy all the democratic trappings of Britain yet complain about the West non-stop. Also why do these Muslims make out that the Iraq war is a war on Islam? As wrong as that war was / is it was against a very Un-Religous state led by a Dictator (Plenty of Bars and Niteclubs in Bagdhad when Saddam was around). I mean Afghanistan was a completely justified war as it despotic training ground for Terrorists and a response to 9/11 (Should USA do nothing?).

    Nato's involvement in the Balkans war when they intervened on behalf of Bosnian Muslims isn't exactly glorified by these sad angry people obviously it doesn't suit their argument. Sick and tired of them and would be happy to see them go live under a rock in Helmand Province.


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    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    legal-eagle wrote: »
    Thought I'd bump this after seeing this evenings news. A load of extremist Muslims with banners like "Europe you will pay. Magnificent 19 are on their way" now I ask you why again why don't these people go live in a strict Islamic state that they crave?


    ....because they're a minority, led usually by attention seekers. If yer man choudray was to end up in Saudi, no one would pay him any attention. In Britain he's now centre of attention.


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    #86
    legal-eagle
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭legal-eagle


    Anyone see the Newsnight interiew with this violently extreme nutcase, it again begs the question why does man and his little followers please leave our corrupt un-Muslim societies?

    Goodluck, good riddance and don't come back.


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