Single Mothers and Housing

legal-eagle

Another controversial one from me, I have been thinking is it right for the state to give single mothers a house?

Maybe we need to deter ignorant 18 year olds from having kids rather than hearing "I got a gaff and me fella is moing in with me its rapid it is".
And of course their kids and their kids will all do the same thing, result is more spending on houses, child and social welfare aswell as higher crime rates in the future. Discuss please.

aurelius79

legal-eagle wrote: »

Another controversial one from me, I have been thinking is it right for the state to give single mothers a house?

Maybe we need to deter ignorant 18 year olds from having kids rather than hearing "I got a gaff and me fella is moing in with me its rapid it is".
And of course their kids and their kids will all do the same thing, result is more spending on houses, child and social welfare aswell as higher crime rates in the future. Discuss please.

Way to link social housing and crime together there buddy.

Honestly, people will have children regardless, it's what they do. What difference does it make if they have their own house or are taking money from the system to pay rent to some crooked landlord? Everyone needs a place to live and if I had my way everyone who wanted a house to live in would get one.

Now on to your second comment. Suggesting that people who live in social housing commit more crime than people who don't is ridiculous. Bertie grew up in Drumcondra, not Ballybough.

nesf

I don't think a mother and one child should be given a house with more than two bedrooms for what it's worth.

Dannyboy83

Honestly, people will have children regardless, it's what they do.

I hear a lot of people saying this and I have to say, it's one I have never understand myself.
None (and I mean not a single one individual) of the lads I went to college with have children, despite many being in long term relationships.
Reason: cannot afford to buy their own house/long term renters/no stability/no security.

Honestly, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea from that people who are responsible in most other areas of their life are going to be reckless when it comes to children.

I also know of people who have had abortions, because of their massively limited/insecure options who probably would not have otherwise had them.
People are free to feel however they want to feel about that, I'm just reporting here.
I'm not looking at any demographics but I'm guessing that the age of people getting married/having children is going to continue to go back until the unfairness in this country sorts itself out.
I guess you need to bring emigration back in there tho.

You said it yourself, nobody wants to be at the whim of a crooked landlord when they have kids depending on them for stability and schooling. Especially in a country where long term renters have minimal rights/protection.

A handful of the girls I went to college with have kids.
The one common theme with them is that they married and emigrated.
Girls, tending to mature faster than guys, generally are involved with older guys i.e. a 27yo girl will frequently get with a guy who is at least a year older.

Of the lads I do know who already have 1 kid (or more), a lot of them are unemployed, grew up in social housing themselves and are basically trapped in the same lifestyle as their parents.
And I don't imagine their kids will be much different.

I know this all probably horribly conforms to stereotype.
No smoke without fire tho.

(Btw, I'm not suggesting that they are bad people, just that in my view people in that situation do conform to the perceived lifestyle)

What difference does it make if they have their own house or are taking money from the system to pay rent to some crooked landlord?

Pretty big one imho, even just down to the little things like which gang their kids would hang around with in school. I don't see these things as unrelated, but rather a lot of things being predetermined.

Everyone needs a place to live and if I had my way everyone who wanted a house to live in would get one.

If I had my way, houses would not be a commodity, but rather a social necessity. There would be some type of regulation preventing profiteering - I believe they have some type of regulation such as this in Germany.
On the other hand, the legislation (and cost) with regard to renting seems to be so fair that you don't even need to buy a house.
If the average wage in this country is 35k, there should be some type of law where a house cannot be sold for more than 140k, or at least some type of preference for first time buyers.
I think it should be linked into the AIW with a ceiling of some sort.
Imagine if that had been the case over the last 12 years, this country would be in a far more stable position.

Now on to your second comment. Suggesting that people who live in social housing commit more crime than people who don't is ridiculous. Bertie grew up in Drumcondra, not Ballybough.

aurelius79 wrote: »

Way to link social housing and crime together there buddy.

Off the top of my head, the guys I went to school with who ended up inside, mostly came from social housing. The other handful were rich kids who got in with the wrong crowd.
One of my pals grew up in a really bad estate on the north side where parents having a job was a rare thing, almost every other guy his age has been inside for a while, nothing really strange.
I grew in a normal/good estate, where a parent not having a job was a rare thing. None of the people have been inside, almost all have jobs or emigrated if they couldn't get one.

My experience tells me that social housing/council estates are not very desirable.
(I also know of a few cases where pikeys were settled in good estates in Galway, and made their neighbours houses unsaleable)


Let me make it crystal clear here before anyone takes offense; I'm not saying people who come from council estates/social housing are scumbags or are destined to be. But it seems silly to ignore that these people facing an uphill battle compared to others.

SLUSK

There should be no social housing whatsoever. Remove all these grants and lower taxes.

Because of these generous welfare rules towards single parents being a single mother seems to be a "career choice" in Ireland.

walrusgumble

legal-eagle wrote: »

Another controversial one from me, I have been thinking is it right for the state to give single mothers a house?

Maybe we need to deter ignorant 18 year olds from having kids rather than hearing "I got a gaff and me fella is moing in with me its rapid it is".
And of course their kids and their kids will all do the same thing, result is more spending on houses, child and social welfare aswell as higher crime rates in the future. Discuss please.

right.

Your name says legal eagle. no doubt many people are aware of the constitution and some of its outdated provisions, like the mother's position in the home and her special role in society etc. Ironic too that whilst women/commentators will bi^tch and moan about the provision, they would be quick use it in an argument. oh the irony.

anyway, talk about generalisation. yes, it is a common persecption and facts/stats may proove in limited terms that the single mothers seem to come from the backgrounds you ridiculously refer to. But that does not mean, and i don't you are saying this, that simply because the mother forget to take the pill or wear a rubber johnny, their kids will lead to crime. the media is always full of the crimes of the "underpriviledge". all throughout the world the activities of the "well heeled/white collar" have been just as bad, they just don't grab the same attention as the DPP/Courts/government (in Ireland)

How is society going to tell mothers and fathers to be to use precaution or abstain?

Bar the money side of things, whats the difference between "career baby makers" from say Tallaght to say some well heeled doll from Tenure (elsewhere) who gets pregnant (whilst in a relationship)/or some slapper in copper face jacks? - well, no doubt you and many others will say, the money, the ability to be able to raise a child etc, and maybe some nazi notion that the tallaght doll had no business having a child.

the correct point of "single mothers", i think is that the mother is raising the child on her own, without the father taking his legal responsibility seriously.she can't work, even if she wants to, not everyone has a mummy / daddy who can afford to financially assist them (in fairness even the well healed would have trouble in this climate).

What would you suggest then? tell them to give the child up for adoption?, tell them to take the boat/plane to some "shop" in the UK? How about sending them to some Magedline's like they use to in the "good old days"?

Respectively sir/madam, you have a very cushioned view of the realities of life if you believe the last part of your post is the general scheme of things.

walrusgumble

SLUSK wrote: »

There should be no social housing whatsoever. Remove all these grants and lower taxes.

Because of these generous welfare rules towards single parents being a single mother seems to be a "career choice" in Ireland.

any hard stats/evidence to back this up? where is the father of the children, are they finanically assisting? can any of them afford to do so?

so lower taxes and remove grants? jesus you will love the soon to be fine gael/conversative governments coming the westminister and the dail.

Ye are quick to bit*ch and moan about receiptants of these provisions and complain they are all no good for nothing spongers etc - as if you or your parents always enjoyed life at the higher levels of society / money ladder. Look down their noses at others.

How are these kids going to try and not repeat their mother's actions if they can't get the same / reasonable chance and opportunity as other families without the grants etc? do we want everyone stuck to their own confides of society or do we try and give everyone the chance to improve themselves?

If you have children or grown up children, i would sincerely hope you and them would never fall on bad times or they were unable to get affordable house/mortgage etc.would ye stick yer noses up to them?

Liam Byrne

There are a LOT of inequalities in the way things are doled out in this country, mainly because of the way the country and its laws & benefits are structured.

Kids with one parent = house + children's allowance
Kids with two parents = children's allowance, etc
Single person with no kids = earn yourself €900 a month and pay for your own bloody house!

ALL of the above is wrong; I've no kids - yet ? - because I can't afford them. Simple as.

Adding insult to injury, I'm contributing to the expenses of those above.

Until taxes, benefits and services are streamlined and made logical in this country, there will be no improvement in behaviour.

I wouldn't hang someone for an accident (could have happened any of us, if we're truthful) but it should be a small 2-bed affordable apartment, and they should be grateful to have it.

tricky D

Ah yes, single mothers, the easy target. The setup is that they're irresponsible and leeching off the state. The actuality is that it's the fathers who get off easy and without social housing, it really is back to Magadelene laundry type solutions - no thanks to that horror again. As far as career choice goes, it's a pretty bad choice to make life so much more difficult workwise, socially, economically and so on. It's rarely a choice made but most often imposed.

It's almost exclusively the mother who is the single parent, imagine if it was a true 50/50 chance as to whether the father or mother did the rearing, attitudes would be very very different.

If you want anecdotes, all the single mothers I know are genuinely single and work hard despite the extra burdens. Only one has social housing and all of them get little or mainly no support from the fathers. In the case of the one with social housing, the father almost the second the mother became pregnant even went to great lengths to legally protect an inheritance, shunned the kid (who got a hard time for being a bastard) for 16 years and then wanted to reconcile when all the hard work was done and yet some here would have her vilified and homeless - happy scroogmas indeed.

SLUSK

I have no respect for deadbeat dads either, but it is not my fault these single mothers are in a tough spot. I did not make them pregnant so why should I pay for it?

I care about my money, not about other people.

mikemac

There are different situations though, it's not all about teenagers.

A wife with a young family may lose her husband in a traffic accident and now has no way of paying the mortgage so the house is lost if there was no payment protection plan. I'm not entirely sure how mortgage insurance works but just making a point

So the widow with a young family needs social housing, I've no issue with my local council supporting people like this.

The_Minister

aurelius79 wrote: »

Now on to your second comment. Suggesting that people who live in social housing commit more crime than people who don't is ridiculous. Bertie grew up in Drumcondra, not Ballybough.

I'm fairly sure people who live in social housing on average commit more crime.

Bottle_of_Smoke

A lot of them have a great situation as they get free/really really cheap accommodation which they can then split with their new boyfriend, but theres plenty who don't have it easy. We have to be careful not to take it out on the genuine ones that the career mothers are milking the system.

Nodin

SLUSK wrote: »

I care about my money, not about other people.

Funny, because empathy is supposed to be one of our defining traits as a species.

aurelius79

SLUSK wrote: »

I have no respect for deadbeat dads either, but it is not my fault these single mothers are in a tough spot. I did not make them pregnant so why should I pay for it?

I care about my money, not about other people.

I can't actually believe you just said this on the one day that everyone is meant to be thinking about peace and love and good will towards others.

But you know what, you're right. You shouldn't have to pay. But then you shouldn't use the the roads, the water piped into your house, the sewer system, or any other public service.

If you willingly pay taxes to the government and they decide to use some of it to help those less fortunate than you, then that's the will of the people to do so. If you don't agree with it, then feel free to move up the side of a mountain and stop paying taxes and stop using public services. Or you can vote for someone in the next election that'll get rid of the social services altogether.

Joey the lips

I have no problem giving single parents housing. However I have a problem with single parents saying they are single then moving there partner in. In most cases there partner and them are now drawing either 2 welfare allowences and or one of them is working.

Again I have no problem with single parents.

My main problem is with the social welfare for not enforcing and carrying out checks more often..

aurelius79

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, because empathy is supposed to be one of our defining traits as a species.

Well actually, it's believed that the large mammals, elephants, apes, members of the cetacea family, etc are also capable of feeling sympathy and empathy.

Anyway, I agree with you 100%. Not only that but the Irish in particular have a great reputation for helping those in the greatest need. This has been proven by our numerous charities to help African nations, not to mention the group of Irish people that drove all the way down to Gaza for Christmas.

Is it any wonder why the country is in the state it's in now when there are so many like Sean Fitzpatrick and Patrick Neary?

gurramok

walrusgumble wrote: »

any hard stats/evidence to back this up? where is the father of the children, are they finanically assisting? can any of them afford to do so?

Come down to Pearse St, Dublin and I will show you the baby generating single mothers whose only purpose in life is to get that house\flat and keep the benefits as a career.
Of course, the father is not on the birth certs of said children. Taxpayers should not be responsible for these single mother con artists, only genuine hardship cases.

aurelius79

gurramok wrote: »

Come down to Pearse St, Dublin and I will show you the baby generating single mothers whose only purpose in life is to get that house\flat and keep the benefits as a career.
Of course, the father is not on the birth certs of said children. Taxpayers should not be responsible for these single mother con artists, only genuine hardship cases.

Damn these single mothers and their million dollar homes, their sports cars, and their 100 foot yachts!! Seriously, let's worry about the corrupt politicians and public servants before we start looking for scapegoats.

meoklmrk91

Most reasonable people have no problem with social housing for those who need it especially children. There is no point in in PC about there is higher crime in local authority housing area. But if we are to break the cycle of people using social welfare as a lifestyle as opposed to a means then we need to pour resources in these areas, especially education. People who have jobs and own their own houses tend to have children who do the same, it's no different for the majority of the children of the people on social welfare.

Now I also see a lot of comments about how people don't mind if these people are being honest and don't have the child's father or a partner living with them. My sister and her partner have two children one is six the other is nine months. He has had no work this year and can't get so much as a FAS course they are living on E365 a week. If they were claiming loan parent then they would be able to live quite a bit more comfortably.

The fact of the matter is most of the people who live in local authority aren't 18 ''young wans'' bleeding us all dry they are families just trying to get by.

dsmythy

aurelius79 wrote: »

Damn these single mothers and their million dollar homes, their sports cars, and their 100 foot yachts!! Seriously, let's worry about the corrupt politicians and public servants before we start looking for scapegoats.

I'm sure he worries about them too, in threads about them. I'm not a believer myself in this "widespread" "career choice" single mother. I'm certain they make up a tiny tiny section of single mothers.

I think any reasonable person has no problem with single mothers, or indeed single fathers, getting a 2-bed apartment/house but for those few who are trying to abuse the system i think sympathy for them upon detection should near disappear.

SLUSK

SLUSK wrote: »

I care about my money, not about other people.

Well shur that says it all really...





(sorry didn't even read much more of the thread, as i was too apalled by this statement..)

SLUSK

Deleted User wrote: »

Well shur that says it all really...





(sorry didn't even read much more of the thread, as i was too apalled by this statement..)

Why should the responsible have to pay for the mistakes of those who behave irresponsibly? There are no incentives to behave like a responsible adult if you get punished for it buy having pay for the irresponsible people. There are lots of incentives to become a single teenage mum if you get lots of handouts for it.

tudlytops

SLUSK wrote: »

Why should the responsible have to pay for the mistakes of those who behave irresponsibly? There are no incentives to behave like a responsible adult if you get punished for it buy having pay for the irresponsible people. There are lots of incentives to become a single teenage mum if you get lots of handouts for it.

How though i disagree with a lot of what you say or at least how you say it and I'm going to be hang by what I'm about to say, I will still say it.

When I come to Ireland many, many years ago, if I had know then what I know now, I would have just had babies, many babies.

SLUSK

SLUSK wrote: »

Why should the responsible have to pay for the mistakes of those who behave irresponsibly? There are no incentives to behave like a responsible adult if you get punished for it buy having pay for the irresponsible people. There are lots of incentives to become a single teenage mum if you get lots of handouts for it.

I cant be arsed arguing about this with you..
I just hope you never lose your job..and never have to rely on social welfare..(its pretty much human nature at that stage to try and claim as much as you can..and why not?..the system is there to be taken advantage of..)

nesf

SLUSK wrote: »

I care about my money, not about other people.

Quit trolling if you want to continue posting here.

Joey the lips

aurelius79 wrote: »

Damn these single mothers and their million dollar homes, their sports cars, and their 100 foot yachts!! Seriously, let's worry about the corrupt politicians and public servants before we start looking for scapegoats.

How many politicians are there in govt?? How many public servants are corrupt?? As for corrupt single mothers you must admit scapegoat is not in the sentence.

I think this is representitive of boards. I imagine if a survay had been done like yourself no one cares. This must be surly where the faceless nature of boards is wrong. Its easy to say Legalise prostitution and cannabis bring back the death penality that but we seem to be non chalot about social welfare fraud which was estimated to be between 500 million and 2 billion euro

http://www.silobreaker.com/no-evidence-of-2bn-social-welfare-fraud-says-cowen-5_2262797487616032797

Put quite simply thats a lot of hospital beds or school places. This issue needs to be seriously dealth with but I imagine there is not many politicians will come out and say this in ireland. After all what politician wants to say the real issue on the govt's mind and then be photographed with a single mother and 12 kids who concieved by immaculate conception.

stereo_steve

nesf wrote: »

Quit trolling if you want to continue posting here.

While I don't agree 100% with Slusk, how is he trolling? He's giving his honest opinion and backed up what he has said. That's his opinion.

I want to go to work and take home as much of the money I have earned without giving it to the government. Everyone feels this way. We like to think that our money has been well spent. We are right to question how and where it is spent.

I definitely do not begrudge someone a place to live if it is genuinely needed. Particularly as one poster mentioned a family were a parent has passed away and cannot afford to keep their home. I definitely do begrudge someone having children as a career choice.

I have worked hard, gone to college, and work long hours. I don't think it makes sense for someone to get a home just for getting pregnant??? The welfare system is grossly unfair in many ways. It seems to me that the worker on minimum wage is basically screwed in Ireland! The system should put a priority on rewarding those who work.

We need to encourage people to work and pay for their own place. Perhaps we could provide jobs for single mothers? (Assuming this recession ends :eek: ) Give them access to a free creche? Not just give someone a house but help them to help themselves? Let them pay their rent, bills and be accountable. In this way I think the general public would be happier and the single mothers can hold their head up high.

Also, I think if there was a bit more transparency people would be happier? How are houses allocated and how many given out each year? Does this information exist online anywhere?

/Steve

Fighting Irish

I think you should have to pay a tax for having a kid

Fighting Irish

aurelius79 wrote: »

Damn these single mothers and their million dollar homes, their sports cars, and their 100 foot yachts!! Seriously, let's worry about the corrupt politicians and public servants before we start looking for scapegoats.

Don't forget the banks, they made us all buy crap houses with huge mortgages

AlekSmart

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/CorporatePublications/Finance/Pages/opfpreview.aspx

The above document is quite a good signpost to where the Rebublic`s official attitude towards Lone Parent support is pointing.

StereoSteve: I think if there was a bit more transparency people would be happier? How are houses allocated and how many given out each year? Does this information exist online anywhere?

A major problem of the current DSFA pallette of benefits is the sheer breadth of scale of them.

One of the most compelling aspects of the recent RTE Prime Time Investigates was the reluctance of the Secretary General of the DSFA ,Bernadette Lacey to admit to any specific figure for "fraudulent" claims.

Ms Lacey was extremely precise with her wording,almost Jesuitical in her need to avoid anything which could attract a focus on to a particular area of her remit.

It was notable that her subordinates "in the field" were somewhat more robust in their descriptions of how difficult it is to monitor or enforce the multitude of DFSA qualifying regulations,particularly those relating to "co-habitation".

Dsmythy sez: I think any reasonable person has no problem with single mothers, or indeed single fathers, getting a 2-bed apartment/house but for those few who are trying to abuse the system i think sympathy for them upon detection should near disappear.

Dsmythy gets close to the bullseye here with the only item of contention being the term "getting".

This,more than anything else has come to be the defining element of the DSFA schemes,particularly those which can be availed of in the One Parent Family group of benefits.

The combination of a One Parent Family benefit,a Jobseekers Allowance and/or Disablement/Disablity Benefit,Private Rented Accomodation Allowance can,in the case of many claimants provide a level of comfort equalling that of any low to middle income employment.

The above combination/s when allied to the totally seperate Child support payments/schemes then begin to quickly outpace what an "ordinary" single income "Worker" could provide for the same family.

This level of seperation really widens when a Medical Services Card is factored in allied perhaps to a Free Travel Scheme Pass.

Whilst there are many who will say that the levels of "Combi-Benefit" fraud is low I believe that this "Combi-Claim" ethos represents a major slice of fraudulent claiming within the DFSA`s multitude of "services and systems".

This problem is worsened by the absence of any meaningful cross-referencing of claims between differing agencies such as Local Authorities,HSE and the DSFA itself.

There is also,in some areas,a form of unofficial,unspoken truce agreement in place whereby the local DSFA management are content to blind-eye a significant amount of "Combi-Claiming" simply due to not having ANY resources available to pursue those responsible.

Listening to Minister Mary Hanifin deftly side-stepping the Fraud question also draws attention to her Government`s realization that serious civil-unrest is most likely the only definite outcome of any REAL cutbacks in DSFA benefit levels.

Those who are in employment,particularly if they have worked full-time since finishing education are highly unlikely to engage in riot or serious physical protest at wage-cuts or yet more curtailment of the PRSI benefits they have paid for.

This group will,after a reasonable amount of logical and lawful protest simply knuckle down and try to make ends meet as they always do.

Thus,any Government has little to fear from this group and it knows it !

Aurelius79 puts the opposing view sucinctly :If you willingly pay taxes to the government and they decide to use some of it to help those less fortunate than you, then that's the will of the people to do so. If you don't agree with it, then feel free to move up the side of a mountain and stop paying taxes and stop using public services. Or you can vote for someone in the next election that'll get rid of the social services altogether.

Although Aurelius79`s point is valid,there is an increasing realization amongst those contributing into the DSFA system that their contributions are being disbursed to many whose level of misfortune is nowhere near as poor as portrayed by the proponents of the scheme`s.

I have little doubt but if the "live on the side of a mountain" option was offered many would opt for it,but as the current PAYE/PRSI schemes are structured that option is not offered legally....one would have to drop off radar into the Black Economy and therefore join the very groups one wishes to escape from....

I think if there was a bit more transparency people would be happier? How are houses allocated and how many given out each year? Does this information exist online anywhere?

StereoSteve`s point re verification is central to the entire discussion.

The past few months have shown just how disconnected the various systems actually are,with totally seperate administrations and jealously guarded turf patches as will be quickly proven when anybody DOES go looking to collate statistics.

Those Stats are out there,but they will be buried as deeply as possible in order to preserve the peaceful Status Quo and deflect any over interested prying-eyes .

What will happen when the money runs out......God alone Knows :mad: