Single Mothers and Housing

AARRRGH

Rossibaby wrote: »

Yes, I would agree that poorer areas would tend to have a greater number of criminals, the crimes would be on a smaller scale of course.

Most of the murders in Ireland are commited by drugs gangs, who tend to all be from council estates. Same with armed robbery.

Both murder and armed robbery are two of the most serious crimes you can commit.

I would agree however that the biggest financial crimes tend to be comitted by educated, well off types. I don't think large scale white collar financial crimes are as common as you want to believe though.

Rossibaby wrote: »

And yeah on the point I highlighted, of course I disagree with you. Surely you would acknowledge that white collar crime leads to increased poverty and thus often leads to the 'violent crime' you are talking about. Whether the violence occurs through war, or whether this be through creating inequality, drug abuse and dealing etc it's clear it is not two seperate phenomenon we are talking about here, but a intertwined system of cause and effect.

You really think white collar crime is worse than violent crime? Right... I think 99.99% of society would disagree with you on that. Certainly the Gardai and our law makers do.

I sense this is a subject you are taking personally, hence your slightly controversial viewpoints. Are you from a council estate?

Rossibaby

AARRRGH wrote: »

Most of the murders in Ireland are commited by drugs gangs, who tend to all be from council estates. Same with armed robbery.

Both murder and armed robbery are two of the most serious crimes you can commit.

I would agree however that the biggest financial crimes tend to be comitted by educated, well off types. I don't think large scale white collar financial crimes are as common as you want to believe though.




You really think white collar crime is worse than violent crime? Right... I think 99.99% of society would disagree with you on that. Certainly the Gardai and our law makers do.

I sense this is a subject you are taking personally, hence your slightly controversial viewpoints. Are you from a council estate?

Actually I am not, I'm just educated politically.

I agree that violent crime is the most immediate threat, what I'm arguing is that drug dealing and armed robbery are commited because of inequality generally speaking. This is why places like Mountjoy are full of people from working class backgrounds with the vast majority dabblign in drugs at some point in their lives. This inequality is directly created by the system, a system that lets white collar crime off the hook and lets risk-taking in banks off the hook which compounds and perpetuates this inequality, which is the source of the crimes you mention and which I agree should be a great concern for the cops. But one must look beyond the symptom and uproot the source.

AARRRGH

Rossibaby wrote: »

Actually I am not, I'm just educated politically.

I agree that violent crime is the most immediate threat, what I'm arguing is that drug dealing and armed robbery are commited because of inequality generally speaking. This is why places like Mountjoy are full of people from working class backgrounds with the vast majority dabblign in drugs at some point in their lives. This inequality is directly created by the system, a system that lets white collar crime off the hook and lets risk-taking in banks off the hook which compounds and perpetuates this inequality, which is the source of the crimes you mention and which I agree should be a great concern for the cops. But one must look beyond the symptom and uproot the source.

I think you are incorrect. And for the record I am also well educated, so I am not talking out of my hole.

Having a disadvantaged upbringing (poor education, little money, bad parents) increases your chance of becoming a criminal such as an armed robber, drug dealer or a petty thief. I think everyone would agree on this.

This inequality is not due to "the system" or white collar crime. Education and health care are free in Ireland. I know plenty of people from disadvantaged backgrounds (including myself) who have become successful, law abiding people.

Certainly coming from a disadvantaged background makes things tougher, but it is not an excuse for being a scumbag. There is such a thing as personal responsibility.

And frankly, saying white collar crime is a significant reason why disadvantaged people become violent criminals, that's just ridiculous.

dvpower

Rossibaby wrote: »

Ah now come on. Violent crime is often linked to inequality, and white collar crime can and does play a huge roll in the creation of such inequality.

True. But prison is, at best, a short term solution.

Rossibaby wrote: »

I agree that violent crime prevention is the most immediate task of a protection force, but this is a root and branch thing here. You cannot just keep on attacking the symptom and ignore the cause. The reality is the system is set up to let white collar crime off the hook, and its much more fashionable to see gangsters with guns in the papers rather than the bigger gangsters in suits that make the social context of a nation fertile for the street thugs dealers to run riot.

I agree with most of the above, but we shouldn't think that the solution one one variety of crime is the solution to another. I'm not in favour of letting white collar criminals off the hook; at the same time, we have limited resources available to tackle crime, so the more direct crimes are always going to attract the resources that we do have.

Rossibaby

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think you are incorrect. And for the record I am also well educated, so I am not talking out of my hole.

Having a disadvantaged upbringing (poor education, little money, bad parents) increases your chance of becoming a criminal such as an armed robber, drug dealer or a petty thief. I think everyone would agree on this.

This inequality is not due to "the system" or white collar crime. Education and health care are free in Ireland. I know plenty of people from disadvantaged backgrounds (including myself) who have become successful, law abiding people.

Certainly coming from a disadvantaged background makes things tougher, but it is not an excuse for being a scumbag. There is such a thing as personal responsibility.

And frankly, saying white collar crime is a significant reason why disadvantaged people become violent criminals, that's just ridiculous.

But you said that the majority crime is directly related to poorer areas, surely then it must be acknowledged that these people are not inherently 'scumbags', but a product of their social environment. There will always be bad apples, scumbags as you say, but the fact is that certain types of crime, especially petty crime, are endemic in poor areas because they are in fact poor areas and suffer from everything that goes with that.

You are lucky, you came from a background that was not privileged and got a decent education etc..but there are many people due to their social condition don't get that opportunity and may turn to crime in desperation.

And of course white collar crime is a significant reason in the overall scheme of things why some people turn to crime. White collar crime is part of a system that looks after the interests of a certain sect in society, and those it neglects react to this system by turning to crime. White collar crime exemplifies what is wrong with the system in place, a man who robs 200 euro from a house is more likely to be convicted than a man who robs 2 million through white collar crime.

Rossibaby

dvpower wrote: »

True. But prison is, at best, a short term solution.



I agree with most of the above, but we shouldn't think that the solution one one variety of crime is the solution to another. I'm not in favour of letting white collar criminals off the hook; at the same time, we have limited resources available to tackle crime, so the more direct crimes are always going to attract the resources that we do have.

No excuse, however. What constitutes a more direct crime anyway? Seemlingly in Irish society it's usually a more direct crime when committed by a working class person.

AARRRGH

Rossibaby wrote: »

But you said that the majority crime is directly related to poorer areas, surely then it must be acknowledged that these people are not inherently 'scumbags', but a product of their social environment. There will always be bad apples, scumbags as you say, but the fact is that certain types of crime, especially petty crime, are endemic in poor areas because they are in fact poor areas and suffer from everything that goes with that.

I agree that where they are from plays a factor, and I agree (to a certain extent) that they are a product of their environment. I also believe a lot of people are born lacking certain skills (such as a lack of raw intelligence), so if these people are surrounded by abusive alcoholic parents, they are only going to turn out one way.

Rossibaby wrote: »

And of course white collar crime is a significant reason in the overall scheme of things why some people turn to crime. White collar crime is part of a system that looks after the interests of a certain sect in society, and those it neglects react to this system by turning to crime. White collar crime exemplifies what is wrong with the system in place, a man who robs 200 euro from a house is more likely to be convicted than a man who robs 2 million through white collar crime.

I agree the lack of convictions for white collar crime is a problem, but I don't agree with your efforts to link white collar crime to any sort of significant reason why people from disadvantaged areas become criminals.

Most teenagers don't even know what white collar crime is, yet they may already be dealing drugs or mugging people.

I think you are trying to connect two unrelated issues.

AARRRGH

Rossibaby wrote: »

No excuse, however. What constitutes a more direct crime anyway? Seemlingly in Irish society it's usually a more direct crime when committed by a working class person.

They are not being punished because they are working class, they are being punished because they commited a violent crime.

Just because some very rich people are able to get away with complex financial crimes does not mean the world is out to get the working class.

Violent crime = easy to convict.
Financial crime = hard to convict.

The former happens to mostly be commited by the poor, and the latter by the rich.

Rossibaby

I agree the lack of convictions for white collar crime is a problem, but I don't agree with your efforts to link white collar crime to any sort of significant reason why people from disadvantaged areas become criminals.

Most teenagers don't even know what white collar crime is, yet they may already be dealing drugs or mugging people.

I think you are trying to connect two unrelated issues.

It's got nothing to do with teenagers knowing why they have no money, its the fact they have no money and little hope for the future due to circumstances beyond their control that matters.

Rossibaby

AARRRGH wrote: »

They are not being punished because they are working class, they are being punished because they commited a violent crime.

Just because some very rich people are able to get away with complex financial crimes does not mean the world is out to get the working class.

Violent crime = easy to convict.
Financial crime = hard to convict.

The former happens to mostly be commited by the poor, and the latter by the rich.

So you admit the system is set up in a way that allows the rich to get off nearly scot free and the working class [due to the nature of the crimes they tend to commit which is linked to their social standing] usually get done.

AARRRGH

Rossibaby wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with teenagers knowing why they have no money, its the fact they have no money and little hope for the future due to circumstances beyond their control that matters.

Well I disagree with your assumption that they have no control. Everyone is capable of taking personal responsibility for their life, and choosing which path they take. As I stated in an earlier post, education is free.

White collar crime and corruption are not the reasons why their parents live in a council house or were bad parents.

Not everyone can be wealthy. That's the way the world works.

Rossibaby wrote: »

So you admit the system is set up in a way that allows the rich to get off nearly scot free and the working class [due to the nature of the crimes they tend to commit which is linked to their social standing] usually get done.

No, I don't think the system is set up that way.

As stated, I think it is very easy to convict an uneducated criminal when he commits a violent crime (for example, according to all the crime books I read they nearly always admit to the crime), whereas an educated fraudster who commited a complex crime and has an expensive lawyer, his crime will be a lot harder to prosecute.

There isn't a conspiracy to imprison poor people.

Anyway, enough of this nonsense. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Shea O'Meara

legal-eagle wrote: »

Another controversial one from me, I have been thinking is it right for the state to give single mothers a house?

It's about the quality of life of the child and not the mother, just unfortunate some people take advantage.

Maybe we need to deter ignorant 18 year olds from having kids rather than hearing "I got a gaff and me fella is moing in with me its rapid it is".

Is this a direct quote from your vast experience of dealing with single mothers?

And of course their kids and their kids will all do the same thing, result is more spending on houses, child and social welfare aswell as higher crime rates in the future. Discuss please.

It's known as the cycle of poverty.
As for the high crime; stop buying coke and funding it.

dvpower

Rossibaby wrote: »

No excuse, however. What constitutes a more direct crime anyway?

Anything violent; murder, rape, assault. Direct robbery, like muggings or burglary. They're the types of crimes that I care most about.

I'm far less concerned about stuff like insurance fraud and tax evasion.

Rossibaby wrote: »

Seemlingly in Irish society it's usually a more direct crime when committed by a working class person.

Yeah. Working class criminals need to step up the food chain if they want to avoid jail.

walrusgumble

dvpower wrote: »

Anything violent; murder, rape, assault. Direct robbery, like muggings or burglary. They're the types of crimes that I care most about.

I'm far less concerned about stuff like insurance fraud and tax evasion.



Yeah. Working class criminals need to step up the food chain if they want to avoid jail.

fair comment.

One thing though, would you agree that insurance fraud, tax evasion and political corruption takes an extremely heavy hit on

(a) State Revenue, when you look at reduction of expected taxes, heavy administrative and legal bills when investigating alleged crime and prosecuting the allegded crimes in court or tribunals. How much has being spent on the last 2 tribunals? Shouldn't that money have being used on assisting those who are law abiding to step up the food chain?

Yes, the lone mother scheme should be debated and should be reviewed, but they should not be made scapegoats from our increasing debts and bills, if the state don't have the political will to recover funds etc from known evaders and fraudesters. It is completely not acceptable in todays world and in light of legislation such as the Criminal Justice (Theft & Frauds) Act 2001, to say that there are no resources to at least investigate white collar crime. I respect the notion that groups like CAB are heavily burdened with their work in drug gangs etc, but the prepatrators of white collar crime can't be allowed to think that they can get away with their dishonest deeds and expect to continue to hold high offices, where they owe their customers many important duty of care.

(b) How does failing to punish or correct our leaders who are responsible for fraud/corruption, who lecture to the people, set a good example to the people and other countries?

The issue of stepping up the food chain. jesus. well when big companies actually consider when picking out candidates for interviews,the merit/qualifications of a person as oppose to what school/univeristy he/she attended or their home address, and / or are not influenced as to the people/connections of the candidate, maybe all people will get a fairer chance. Maybe when snobbery ends, law abiding and educated people from places like Finglas, Darnadale etc will get at least the opportunity to present themselves for the big jobs and not have to be expected/destined for the dead end jobs

rohatch

Kit1976 wrote: »

I'm interested in how you know so much about your neighbours. How do you have enough time to spend spying on them and assessing them while continuing to be a paragon of productivity yourself?

You must live in a nice area.
How many 10-12 year olds are robbing cars on your street, or playing football at 2am with loud music.
What about hearing people shouting and fighting so loud that it could be in my own sitting room.

Kit1976 wrote: »

Watching your surveillance videos must interfere terribly with your sleep.

????

Kit1976 wrote: »

Or there's a chance your made the story up.

I think we can leave that up the people on here to decide.

Kit1976 wrote: »

Either way, it's fair to say that anecdotes are not actually data. In other words, your story proves nothing.

You must live in a nice area.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I know a girl from Ballyfermot (poor part of Dublin) and she and her friends have the system worked out to a tee. You know, pregnant as a teenager, free house, all sorts of social welfare benefits. It is definitely seen as a way of life in Ballyfermot -- why work when you can just scounge off the state?

The solution is to put proper safety nets in place for the children. The majority of children growing up like this will be a drain on society in later life, because of bad habits, bad food, lack of parential responsibilites, lower education standards etc.

dsmythy wrote: »

Actually means-test payments so as to offer food, shelter, heat and a small living expense to go alongside them. If there is anyone affording huge TV's and monster boozing sessions then clearly they are either getting too much or are unfit parents.

My neighbour gets over 3,000 euro a month, + a free house, + free travel, + phone, light and heating.

How many people know long term dolers here who live like kings.

How many have big TV's, cars, xbox etc, enough cash to drink and smoke and go on holidays. The dole should only be for a short time, after that time is up you should have to do 20 hours a week in your community.

AARRRGH wrote: »

You really think white collar crime is worse than violent crime? Right... I think 99.99% of society would disagree with you on that. Certainly the Gardai and our law makers do.

I want scumbags done before white collar criminals. A WCC will not stab you or cut your fingers off for 100 quid.

My favourite story from a couple of years ago was a scumbag bag and phone thief (multiple convictions 50+) robbed a mobile and cycled off and went straight under a bus or truck, took him 2 days to die in hospital.

rohatch

Rossibaby wrote: »

So you admit the system is set up in a way that allows the rich to get off nearly scot free and the working class [due to the nature of the crimes they tend to commit which is linked to their social standing] usually get done.

From my personal experience yes.

If you have the right legal team you can get away with almost anything in ireland.

_michelle_

i think we as a modern developed country have a moral obligation to provide for the less fortunate in our country, be it single mothers/fathers disabled pensioners younge & vunrable ect. so if that means we have to provide a house for them & help financially so be it, i would rather that then have people starving (we are a devloped nation after all so we have to make sure all our citizens have a certain quality of life!) now i am by no means saying we should be supporting scroungers who drink all day every day but to make sure the vunrable are protected then if this is the price to pay i personally have no problem wit my taxes being spent on such.

Rossibaby

My favourite story from a couple of years ago was a scumbag bag and phone thief (multiple convictions 50+) robbed a mobile and cycled off and went straight under a bus or truck, took him 2 days to die in hospital.

That's your favourite story? And the phone thief is the scumbag:rolleyes:

AlekSmart

AARRRGH sez....

There is such a thing as personal responsibility.

.

Bang-On,and the current DFSA reigéme does nothing to instil or foster that concept in its customer base.

SheaOMeara is equally spot-on here....

As for the high crime; stop buying coke and funding it.

There`s no such thing as victimless-crime...:(

Michelle posted:

i think we as a modern developed country have a moral obligation to provide for the less fortunate in our country, be it single mothers/fathers disabled pensioners younge & vunrable ect. so if that means we have to provide a house for them & help financially so be it, i would rather that then have people starving (we are a devloped nation after all so we have to make sure all our citizens have a certain quality of life!)

Michelle`s principles above,are excellent and the stuff of a truly responsible,caring,sharing society.

However when we set out such desireable Social Supports we can only do it corectly IF there are clearly established parameters and groundrules which apply to ALL,both contributor and recipient.

Currently our definitions of "Less Fortunate" , "Vulnerable","Financial Help" and "Certain Quality of Life" are sufficiently elastic as to encompass whatever a claimant wants it to,with many claimants having the great benefit of siblings or other relatives who have progressed through the system and who can "consult" on the most efficient means of following their successful journey.

Kit1976

rohatch wrote: »

You must live in a nice area.

My neighbour gets over 3,000 euro a month, + a free house, + free travel, + phone, light and heating.

How many people know long term dolers here who live like kings.

How many have big TV's, cars, xbox etc, enough cash to drink and smoke and go on holidays. The dole should only be for a short time, after that time is up you should have to do 20 hours a week in your community.

Well, whether I live in a nice area or not, I still don't have the time to wonder whether my neighbours smoke, or how much. That's because I'm out at work most of the time and have scant interest in spying on anyone when at home.

I just can't understand how you can be an active, productive and useful member of society and count how many fags your neighbours get through during the day at the same time. Its almost like you're making up little stories to give weight to your point of view, or else you must be unemployed yourself and thinking that your self-appointed guardianship of the spending of public money amounts to your public service.

97i9y3941

rohatch wrote: »

My neighbour gets over 3,000 euro a month, + a free house, + free travel, + phone, light and heating.

i think thats where the system broke itself,would they even give you that much in the uk?..

97i9y3941

AARRRGH wrote: »

They are not being punished because they are working class, they are being punished because they commited a violent crime. Just because some very rich people are able to get away with complex financial crimes does not mean the world is out to get the working class.

i still think it favours the well off,looking at the well known cause of the rich yobs who assaulted a student,convicted of manslaughter but where given some lienecy so they could sit their exams

another case of toff who stabbed someone and who died in frenzy and was convicted of manslaughter..

frank dunlop sent to prison for been the middle man for bribes,those who accepted it seem to had got off scott free...

Spiritoftheseventies

Exactly how much is the rent on someone in social housing. Heard a ridiculously low figure from someone who works in the council. What strikes me about Ireland in general is the level of inequality. There are those who make extravagant amounts of money while there are those who work very hard for very little. There does not seem to a fair system in operation.

rohatch

Fred83 wrote: »

i think thats where the system broke itself,would they even give you that much in the uk?..

No where near it. How can you let someone stay on the dole for 20 years? The whole system needs to be changed.

Kit1976 wrote: »

Well, whether I live in a nice area or not, I still don't have the time to wonder whether my neighbours smoke, or how much. That's because I'm out at work most of the time and have scant interest in spying on anyone when at home.

I just can't understand how you can be an active, productive and useful member of society and count how many fags your neighbours get through during the day at the same time. Its almost like you're making up little stories to give weight to your point of view, or else you must be unemployed yourself and thinking that your self-appointed guardianship of the spending of public money amounts to your public service.

Don't know where your going with the spying thing or the attitude but you seem to be a bit confused. Did you read the post?

lose the attitude

Scofflaw

Don't make the debate personal, please, people.

moderately,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

Rohatch asks..

.How can you let someone stay on the dole for 20 years?

Well it`s relatively easy when the DSFA itself,by it`s own rules will pay Lone Parent Allowance in respect of a qualifying child up to 22...yup....TWENTY TWO years of age...Is that a problem Minister.????