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Longford Cathedral on fire
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nedtheshed wrote: »Ha ha ha ha ha,Jesus,at least some trolls have the brains to not be so obvious,you are just a loser that is trying to be controversial.
People like you give trolls a bad name.
:D:D
Is this thread just for people who love the building.
Cop on.0 -
Everything that person wrote was sanctimonious so ya,its bullshit.There are lots of forums that they can debate the catholic church and their perceived evils,this isnt one of them.diamondtooth wrote: »Who gives you the authority to speak to people like this :rolleyes:.Johnny Giles wrote: »Is this thread just for people who love the building.
Cop on.
Its not a thread for shit stirrers which is what has happened.Its similar to celebrity death threads in AH,a little bit of respect and civility isnt too much to ask.
The fact is the catherdal was a huge part of Longfords history and the residents of the toen and county so there is no need whatsoever for the politiking and rhetoric that has been posted.0 -
It is an absolute shame that a building that served a community so well should have been in flames like this. My sympathies are with these people for whom this cathedral marked important points in their lives.
It is the people in this community who it hits the hardest. Is this something to be praised?0 -
Johnny Giles wrote: »Is this thread just for people who love the building.
Cop on.
No, it's a thread about the fire that's destroyed the building. But bearing that in mind, it's also not the place to start sniping at the church over the abuse cases... if you want to do that, cop on and go to the relevant thread in the relevant section of the site.0 -
I always thought the Cathedral in Longford was a grotesque building with it's Corinthian Columns and arrogant idols towering over the little people who walk beneath it. If there could be an architectural expression of the pompous domination of a corrupt church then this monstrosity it is. While Irish people were dying becaue of a genocidal famine these parasites, who were give food by the British, sucked the blood off the Irish people to build this! Not one priest died of hunger while this was being built out of the stench of rotting potatoes. The hammer blows resonating with the hooves of the British cavalry on their way to evict penniless peasants. We starved, they built a fine 'Cathedral'!
To this day some Russias yearn for Stalin. Maybe it is a kind of Stockholm Syndrome. It's not surprising simple people have cathected with such symbols of their oppression but obviously God has decided to burn it down. Maybe at last he is saying, "enough of your evil!"
While I hear many say how sad they are to see this building burn I can honestly say I am over the moon about it. It is a gift to all those who were trodden on by this heinous church; both by the clergy and the foolish lackeys who stood by them, taking up collections and reporting of 'heratics'.
I am reminded of the stories of the emancipation of slaves in the the US when the a few lost souls stood around the ole plantations, not wanting to avail of their freedom but instead wanted to continue serving 'Masser'.
I visited this Church (It is my diocese) some weeks back after reading the Ryan report and I was really disgusted by the appalling amount of money spent on this building before and after the famine. One hand it was the finest building in Longford, on the other it was a mediocre/ugly building designed by an architect of zero reputation. The Harry Clarke windows were the worst I have ever seen, they came from the Harry Clarke studio but whether Clarke ever touched them or not is very debatable.
You have summed up my sentiments on this incident exactly, we have a long long way to go as a nation.0 -
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garfieldsghost wrote: »No, it's a thread about the fire that's destroyed the building. But bearing that in mind, it's also not the place to start sniping at the church over the abuse cases... if you want to do that, cop on and go to the relevant thread in the relevant section of the site.
Seeing as there is a Gardi investigation to discover witnesses ongoing at the moment it is not only people on here who are speculating but the authorities as well.
It is absolutely natural that in the time we live in that people will and are very much speculating on whether this was arson commited by a person who suffered the horrific abuse that was meted out by the clergy in this country to thousands of children.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »Seeing as there is a Gardi investigation to discover witnesses ongoing at the moment it is not only people on here who are speculating but the authorities as well.
It is absolutely natural that in the time we live in that people will and are very much speculating on whether this was arson commited by a person who suffered the horrific abuse that was meted out by the clergy in this country to thousands of children.
Dat's right.0 -
Have to say I'm extremly disappointed to see the route this thread has gone down, between debating the abuse cases (I'm sure there are relevant threads/sections for this subject to be discussed at length?) and famine (the period of time the cathedral was constructed)/ homelessness. I may not be long on this site but my impression of the OP's post was to highlight the fire and for the people of Longford and those of us no longer in the county to express our loss and sympathy. Perhaps I'm wrong?
I was christened in the cathedral by Colm O' Reilly the now bishop when he was a pp, I have very special memories of the cathedral, not least the last mass I attended in it when my beloved grandmother was brought home to be laid to rest. I find a lot of the posts deeply offensive and am of the mind if you can't say something nice, don't post. I fail to see what gratification some of the posters get from their opinions apart from stirring, when there's really no need for it.
And I for one, should the cathedral be restored will be donating as much as I can afford and will be extremly proud to do so.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »Seeing as there is a Gardi investigation to discover witnesses ongoing at the moment it is not only people on here who are speculating but the authorities as well.
It's called routine. It's the Gardaí's job to investigate all possibilities and discover the cause by process of elimination. To suggest that they already suspect arson when the investigation hasn't even properly begun is ridiculous.0 -
I also am very proud to say I will give generously to restoring this beautiful building.lumpynomore wrote: »Have to say I'm extremly disappointed to see the route this thread has gone down, between debating the abuse cases (I'm sure there are relevant threads/sections for this subject to be discussed at length?) and famine (the period of time the cathedral was constructed)/ homelessness. I may not be long on this site but my impression of the OP's post was to highlight the fire and for the people of Longford and those of us no longer in the county to express our loss and sympathy. Perhaps I'm wrong?
I was christened in the cathedral by Colm O' Reilly the now bishop when he was a pp, I have very special memories of the cathedral, not least the last mass I attended in it when my beloved grandmother was brought home to be laid to rest. I find a lot of the posts deeply offensive and am of the mind if you can't say something nice, don't post. I fail to see what gratification some of the posters get from their opinions apart from stirring, when there's really no need for it.
And I for one, should the cathedral be restored will be donating as much as I can afford and will be extremly proud to do so.0 -
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garfieldsghost wrote: »It's called routine. It's the Gardaí's job to investigate all possibilities and discover the cause by process of elimination. To suggest that they already suspect arson when the investigation hasn't even properly begun is ridiculous.
The Investigation began yesterday morning. All forensic investigations are done as quickly as possible to decide the factors that caused it. The reason there are Detectives questioning people is that the authorities are thinking just what a lot of people are thinking. What on earth could be ridiculous about that?
The firemen and investigators know where this fire started, the question is how did it start. It is only ridiculous when you look at the odds on it. I have spoken to a whole lot of people and there is a seizable majority that are very suspicious of the causes. That does not mean that they are right in any way, but it neither means that they are ridiculous either given the times we live in.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »The Investigation began yesterday morning (1). All forensic investigations are done as quickly as possible to decide the factors that caused it. The reason there are Detectives questioning people is that the authorities are thinking just what a lot of people are thinking (2). What on earth could be ridiculous about that?
The firemen and investigators know where this fire started, the question is how did it start. It is only ridiculous when you look at the odds on it. I have spoken to a whole lot of people and there is a seizable majority that are very suspicious of the causes (3). That does not mean that they are right in any way, but it neither means that they are ridiculous either given the times we live in.
1. I said the investigation hasn't properly begun yet, and it hasn't. Investigators haven't entered the building yet because it still hasn't been assessed by structural engineers. The firemen have probably located the point where the fire started but to define its cause will require detailed forensic examination.
2. After any fire - regardless of how it was started - the Gardaí question neighbours and witnesses to cover all angles. Just because they're doing it in this instance doesn't back up your theory.
3. Some people love nothing more than theorising and feeding off rumours in the wake of such incidents. Just because people are talking about what they think happened is not proof in any way. It's nothing more than hearsay and in the long run such rumour mills can needlessly prolong the work of the authorities.0 -
Very sad for all, and on Christmas Day on all days.
And especially for all those who worked on the cathedral preparing it for the Christmas masses - in our side (Knockcroghery, Roscommon), the preparations, decorations, choir etc took three days to complete, and that was for a small village church. The preps for a town cathedral would take longer. So think of those people as well.0 -
garfieldsghost wrote: »1. I said the investigation hasn't properly begun yet, and it hasn't. Investigators haven't entered the building yet because it still hasn't been assessed by structural engineers. The firemen have probably located the point where the fire started but to define its cause will require detailed forensic examination.
2. After any fire - regardless of how it was started - the Gardaí question neighbours and witnesses to cover all angles. Just because they're doing it in this instance doesn't back up your theory.
3. Some people love nothing more than theorising and feeding off rumours in the wake of such incidents. Just because people are talking about what they think happened is not proof in any way. It's nothing more than hearsay and in the long run such rumour mills can needlessly prolong the work of the authorities.
1. I don't have any theories, I am talking to people in Longford and feeding back their reaction and what the majority of people there think.
2. It does not negate it either.
3. That is peoples nature, to try and figure out what happened, do you think that this fire comes under a diferrent catogery than Albert Reyonald factory that burned down recently?
Google "St, Mel's Cathedral, Longford, arson" and you will end up on forums and blogs from the Usa to the UK that are discussing just that. I have not found you yet but am sure you're are in there somewhere.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »1. I don't have any theories, I am talking to people in Longford and feeding back their reaction and what the majority of people there think.
2. It does not negate it either.
3. That is peoples nature, to try and figure out what happened, do you think that this fire comes under a diferrent catogery than Albert Reyonald factory that burned down recently?
Google "St, Mel's Cathedral, Longford, arson" and you will end up on forums and blogs from the Usa to the UK that are discussing just that. I have not found you yet but am sure you're are in there somewhere.
You won't find my on any of those forums because I don't post on any of them. I live in Longford and have yet to hear anyone express the views you say you've heard from people lhere.0 -
Indeed truthisfree, and so far the discussion on boards.ie has been a lot tamer than that on politics.ie. I've also seen that you have commented on the Daily Telegraph's article on the issue.
Whether or not child abuse happened in the Roman Catholic Church is irrelevant, it doesn't make this loss any better.0 -
Indeed truthisfree, and so far the discussion on boards.ie has been a lot tamer than that on politics.ie.
Whether or not child abuse happened in the Roman Catholic Church is irrelevant, it doesn't make this loss any better.
It is only bricks and mortar after all, interesting the reactions though. I keep thinking about another Xmas when a house fire took the lives of two kids, kinda brings things into perspective.
There seems to be way more acceptance that it was arson on the boards and blogs in the UK and US though, how come?0 -
truthisfree wrote: »It is only bricks and mortar after all, interesting the reactions though. I keep thinking about another Xmas when a house fire took the lives of two kids, kinda brings things into perspective.
There seems to be way more acceptance that it was arson on the boards and blogs in the UK and US though, how come?
Only bricks and mortar to you. It means a lot more to the Roman Catholic community there. I personally am of a different denomination, but it doesn't make me regard it as being any less of a devastation for these people, and certainly not to be something lumped together with child abuse. This style of argument also features in your comments on the Telegraph's site:As far as I know the crozier was the only valuable artefact in the museum which was closed to the public. It has been well documented and photographed by now..... The Crozier was a minor artefact, who it belonged to no one knows or ever will.
As for acceptance, the most acceptance there has been in the original text of the Daily Telegraph's article is a speculation. I'm far more interested in waiting to see what the Gardaí can come up with.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »There seems to be way more acceptance that it was arson on the boards and blogs in the UK and US though, how come?
That's not called acceptance, that's called jumping to conclusions.0 -
garfieldsghost wrote: »That's not called acceptance, that's called jumping to conclusions.
Maybe, or realism, the systematic abuse that happened in this country is one of the greatest sins the church has commited here. Anyone who thinks that this level of abuse can exist in a society without having an adverse effect on that society is deluding themselves.
We have no idea what this abuse can do to a persons mind and what it can drive them to. one in four, think about it, I was not one of them and I hope you were not either but we have all met one, think of that guy you used to know that always got drink and wasted his life being angry and aggressive with everyone. Look at the junkies on the streets. Look at the criminal element in irish society, not too hard to join the dots.
Do you not think that we have to face up to this and deal with it, now.0 -
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truthisfree wrote: »Maybe, or realism, the systematic abuse that happened in this country is one of the greatest sins the church has commited here. Anyone who thinks that this level of abuse can exist in a society without having an adverse effect on that society is deluding themselves.
We have no idea what this abuse can do to a persons mind and what it can drive them to. one in four, think about it, I was not one of them and I hope you were not either but we have all met one, think of that guy you used to know that always got drink and wasted his life being angry and aggressive with everyone. Look at the junkies on the streets. Look at the criminal element in irish society, not too hard to join the dots.
Do you not think that we have to face up to this and deal with it, now.
Rewind for one moment... I thought you didn't have a theory on all of this? From what you've just said there, it looks like you already think this was a vengeful act of arson. And from looking through the link you provided to the dicussion on Politics.ie and Jakkass's revelation that you're also discussing the matter on the Telegraph's forum, it would appear you have an unhealthy fascination with the event.
It may very well turn out that it was an act of arson... but I sincerely hope it doesn't, if just to p*ss off the numerous internet conspiracy theorists and cranks who think they already know the answer...0 -
garfieldsghost wrote: »Rewind for one moment... I thought you didn't have a theory on all of this? From what you've just said there, it looks like you already think this was a vengeful act of arson.
It may very well turn out that it was an act of arson... but I sincerely hope it doesn't, if just to p*ss off the numerous internet conspiracy theorists and cranks who think they already know the answer...
I am looking at the bigger picture Garfield, how many of Dublin's gangland criminals suffered horrific abuse in the institutions that were covered in the Murphy report?0 -
truthisfree wrote: »Maybe, or realism, the systematic abuse that happened in this country is one of the greatest sins the church has commited here. Anyone who thinks that this level of abuse can exist in a society without having an adverse effect on that society is deluding themselves.
We have no idea what this abuse can do to a persons mind and what it can drive them to. one in four, think about it, I was not one of them and I hope you were not either but we have all met one, think of that guy you used to know that always got drink and wasted his life being angry and aggressive with everyone. Look at the junkies on the streets. Look at the criminal element in irish society, not too hard to join the dots.
Do you not think that we have to face up to this and deal with it, now.
I don't condone the abuse by SOME priests of innocent children, however how does two wrongs make a right? Is it acceptable that a cathedral being burnt to the ground is payback? No abuse took place in St.Mel's afaik so why should that church be targeted? Will burning a church down make the pain and suffering felt by abuse victims magically wipe away? I think not and to use abuse victims as a justification for some of your theories is frankly a bit of a cop out. Also your comment about the two kids that tragically lost their life, that no way compares to this matter. Any human loss is beyond tragic, the cathedral loss is major to some people insignificant to others, I just wonder where in the midlands you are, because any Longford person I've spoke to is devestated by this loss.0 -
truthisfree wrote: »I am looking at the bigger picture Garfield, how many of Dublin's gangland criminals suffered horrific abuse in the institutions that were covered in the Murphy report?
What's that got to do with the fire itself and the effect it's had on Longford's community? That is, after all, what we're supposed to be discussing here. If you want to talk about the Murphy Reports and the fall out from it, go over to the Christianity section and talk about it in the relevant topic.0 -
lumpynomore wrote: »I don't condone the abuse by SOME priests of innocent children, however how does two wrongs make a right? Is it acceptable that a cathedral being burnt to the ground is payback? No abuse took place in St.Mel's afaik so why should that church be targeted? Will burning a church down make the pain and suffering felt by abuse victims magically wipe away? I think not and to use abuse victims as a justification for some of your theories is frankly a bit of a cop out. Also your comment about the two kids that tragically lost their life, that no way compares to this matter. Any human loss is beyond tragic, the cathedral loss is major to some people insignificant to others, I just wonder where in the midlands you are, because any Longford person I've spoke to is devestated by this loss.
Right on the money!0 -
truthisfree wrote: »Maybe, or realism, the systematic abuse that happened in this country is one of the greatest sins the church has commited here. Anyone who thinks that this level of abuse can exist in a society without having an adverse effect on that society is deluding themselves.
Of course the Roman Catholic Church has done wrong, there is nothing acceptable about child abuse. Of course it is a sin, there is nothing Christian about what happened. God's standard suggests that we should be stewards of all in this world, that includes our children.
This isn't to do with the actual topic however, it is you seeking to insert an unverifiable agenda into a tragic destruction of a cathedral. If the Gardaí confirm such a happening, then and only then is the time to link the two together in my opinion.truthisfree wrote: »We have no idea what this abuse can do to a persons mind and what it can drive them to. one in four, think about it, I was not one of them and I hope you were not either but we have all met one, think of that guy you used to know that always got drink and wasted his life being angry and aggressive with everyone. Look at the junkies on the streets. Look at the criminal element in irish society, not too hard to join the dots.
The dots aren't present yet. That's what the Gardaí are doing.
One in four isn't the figure for Roman Catholic abuse, it's the figure for abuse in general.
Some people don't like accepting this, but secular child abuse in Ireland was also hugely appalling. Pointing the finger at the Roman Catholic Church is much easier though isn't it?truthisfree wrote: »Do you not think that we have to face up to this and deal with it, now.
You've already accepted this as if it is truth. The Gardaí are doing their investigation. It's my bet that it is something to do with the electrical wiring or the boiler than with arson.
Edit: You claim that the people on the Telegraph site are agreeing with you. Take a look through the latest comments there, they don't seem to be absolutely convinced.0 -
lumpynomore wrote: »I don't condone the abuse by SOME priests of innocent children, however how does two wrongs make a right? Is it acceptable that a cathedral being burnt to the ground is payback? No abuse took place in St.Mel's afaik so why should that church be targeted? Will burning a church down make the pain and suffering felt by abuse victims magically wipe away? I think not and to use abuse victims as a justification for some of your theories is frankly a bit of a cop out. Also your comment about the two kids that tragically lost their life, that no way compares to this matter. Any human loss is beyond tragic, the cathedral loss is major to some people insignificant to others, I just wonder where in the midlands you are, because any Longford person I've spoke to is devestated by this loss.
Woah hang on there, you are implying a whole lot of things there that I did not say. I am from this diocese and live in this diocese.
Firstly I know that people are devastated by this fire, not all of them though as you state.
Secondly, there has been a huge amount of crime commited in this country by people who were covered in the Murphy report and others, there is a link between the two.
Thirdly, No 200 wrongs never make a right, but sometimes an incident like this will focus some peoples attention.
Fourthly, I believe the fire was caused by the heating boiler in the church, the thing that I find fascanating is that people do not want to hear anyone make the slightest suggestion that it might have been an arson attack by an abuse victim. WHY?
It is a purely speculative suggestion that meets with angry responses. If the people who attend church are so angry, why are they not doing something about it? The church are powerless without their support which they continue to give.
Lets say as a scenario, that everyone that attend mass decided to tay away for one weekend as a proest against the abuse in the Church. It would show that they are capable of thinking about their spiritual leaders and making it clear to them that the congeration has a voice too, or is that way too democratic for an old instution such as this?0 -
truthisfree wrote: »Lets say as a scenario, that everyone that attend mass decided to tay away for one weekend as a proest against the abuse in the Church. It would show that they are capable of thinking about their spiritual leaders and making it clear to them that the congeration has a voice too, or is that way too democratic for an old instution such as this?
Why would people not go to church if they find their priest to be honest in this issue, and if they find their priest to conduct a good service?
You are bringing an entirely separate agenda into this issue altogether.0 -
Speaking here as a historian researching a book on this decade in the Irish Catholic Church with a lot of inside information..
Also as a good Catholic... who seeks to follow the teachings of the Church and of course of Jesus Christ, our Founder.
So far, it is only Dublin that has been investigated.
There is no diocese in Ireland where there has been no abuse.
All the Bishops always knew what was going on , as did almost all the priests.
If the nationwide audit goes ahead, this will be seen
What some of us are, along with Archbishop Martin in his Christmas homily, are trying to say is that we need in Ireland to take a close and honest look at our faith now.
The phrase he and others use is that we need to return to Christian values.
Nowhere does our Catechism advocate spending huge sums on buildings.
It does advocate caring for the poor and hungry; because that is the teaching of Jesus; Who of course preached in the open and in the ruined temple at Jerusalem
It seems thus ???? to know that in every city, there are homeless sleeping in the porticos of vast Churches.
This year there have been dozens of Church renovations at huge cost. Items like new floors in two churches of African river stone; as if we don't have stone in Ireland and jobs needed here.
What is happening is that somehow we are separating "Church" from the realities of life our people are facing.
Many have of course been damaged by abuse, and damaged people do bad things.
It is not right of course. But cause and effect.
And at the end of the day, we each choose what we spend our money on. Your freedom
Mine to pour every cent from book sales and all else I can raise to feed the homeless; see Matthew 18
It is of course sad when a building like this burns.Not a good thing at all; but it has happened.
Some years ago a large and famous church in Canada burned to the ground.
There were, as there are here, many other churches nearby, but people said they did not want to go there.
That church was rebuilt at a cost of many, many million $$$
Then they wanted a new organ; another 5 million.
Canada has as many homeless as America.
Surely if we are truly Catholic or other Christian we will look closely at priorities, at the Catechism, at the teachings of Jesus?
That we go to Mass matters; matters not where? Does that not then verge on idolatry?
it is of course up to you
But Jesus is more than a buidling?
Loyalty is to Him above all
And to call people names for quoting the teachings of Jesus makes one see what is happening here in Ireland.
You have given me a whole new angle on my research; thank you! wahbelumpynomore wrote: »I don't condone the abuse by SOME priests of innocent children, however how does two wrongs make a right? Is it acceptable that a cathedral being burnt to the ground is payback? No abuse took place in St.Mel's afaik so why should that church be targeted? Will burning a church down make the pain and suffering felt by abuse victims magically wipe away? I think not and to use abuse victims as a justification for some of your theories is frankly a bit of a cop out. Also your comment about the two kids that tragically lost their life, that no way compares to this matter. Any human loss is beyond tragic, the cathedral loss is major to some people insignificant to others, I just wonder where in the midlands you are, because any Longford person I've spoke to is devestated by this loss.0 -
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But you have no way of knowing if a priest is clean of abuse.
All the former Bishops took beautiful masses, as did the worst abusers.
Just now there is only one priest I trust. Because I know his full past and history.
Interesting times we live in, indeed we doWhy would people not go to church if they find their priest to be honest in this issue, and if they find their priest to conduct a good service?
You are bringing an entirely separate agenda into this issue altogether.0
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