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Longford Cathedral on fire

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    #92
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    MDFM wrote: »
    Because, and i find it unusual to have to explain this...the cathedral is a building, if u havent already noticed that is..
    Would u not despair if you home was burnt down..or would that also be unhealthy..?
    what a load of b..


    Scenario 1:

    John is a child abuser. His house is burned down.

    He feels sad. Other abusers feel sorry for him. His family may feel sad. It appears on RTÉ news. The whole country wants him killed.

    Scenario 2:

    Fr. Christy Phelan is an abuser of children. His church is burned down.

    He feels sad. All priests and believers feel sad. Some people (like ourselves) are of a different opinion. Some are glad it happened.


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    #93
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    This is off topic.

    There is no evidence that any of the clergy involved in this cathedral were involved in child abuse. So unless you can provide evidence:
    1) That it was arson
    2) That there was a precadence of child abuse by the current clergy in this cathedral
    there is no reason to assume that it is because of child abuse, rather than a normal fault.


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    #94
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is off topic.

    There is no evidence that any of the clergy involved in this cathedral were involved in child abuse. So unless you can provide evidence:
    1) That it was arson
    2) That there was a precadence of child abuse by the current clergy in this cathedral
    there is no reason to assume that it is because of child abuse, rather than a normal fault.

    Ye. Dat's right.


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    #95
    MDFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭MDFM


    Johnny Giles wrote: »
    Scenario 1:

    John is a child abuser. His house is burned down.

    He feels sad. Other abusers feel sorry for him. His family may feel sad. It appears on RTÉ news. The whole country wants him killed.

    Scenario 2:

    Fr. Christy Phelan is an abuser of children. His church is burned down.

    He feels sad. All priests and believers feel sad. Some people (like ourselves) are of a different opinion. Some are glad it happened.

    the thread is about the cathedral burning...why dont' you start a thread about child abuse in the clergy rather than going off topic on this one?


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    #96
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    MDFM wrote: »
    the thread is about the cathedral burning...why dont' you start a thread about child abuse in the clergy rather than going off topic on this one?

    Nah. That's it now. I was just answering another question thingy.

    Anyway...where were we?


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    #97
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    Shewhomustbe... wrote: »
    I'm not long living in Longford, coming up to six years, so I wouldn't have the same memories or emotional connection to the building as people in the town/county, in fact I'd never even been in the building (not a Catholic, though if I'd known about the museum I'd have paid it a visit)

    Being truthful I suspected arson when I initially heard about the fire, especially considered how it desimated the entire building, it probably was something else that started it though.

    While I know it will be rebuilt I don't think it should be the people in the community that have to pay for it to be done. It was a building of worship and not someone's home (depending on how you look at that theory!) and since the Church is not short a penny or too, and of course with the fact it was insured, it was be utterly disgraceful for them to ask people struggling to put there hands in their pocket.

    Well I thought accidental, wiring and still do, also accept that it could be arson. The insurance company will have to pay for the re-construction if everything is in order.

    I have a feeling that another little problem could crop up on this one though, just a hunch, nothing else.


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    #98
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users Posts: 7,937 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    Johnny Giles, if people want to donate to the rebuilding, then don't let it worry you. however, if you do want to worry, then worry about the FAI and IRFU looking for donations to have people's names carved in stone in the AVIVA stadium.
    fund raising like this happens all the time, the fact that it's a Cathedral just makes it easy for some people to take potshots at the church. there is no evidence of any abuse having taken place in the whole diocese, nevermind the parish. neither is there any rumour of it having taken place. Longford is a small town, and word travels fast. so, please, keep this thread on topic.
    many of us are more than happy to contribute towards the rebuild, at least we'll be freely able to view the result, not like the AVIVA stadium where you'll pay for the privelidge to view the result before being asked kindly to leave by some dude in a fluorescent jacket.
    also, no one investigating the cause of the fire has gone into the building since the fire, so any rumours are just that.


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    #99
    ianwalsh2
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ianwalsh2


    Christ almighty I never thought I'd see so much action on the Longford forum! Anyhoo having read through the last 5 pages of often irrelevant horse****, I really wish certain people would discuss their issues on the relevant threads. Obviously there is a lot of catholic church bashing going on at the moment which is fair enough and absolutely deserved, however I really don't think this is the thread for it!

    As a person from Longford, who has spent countless hours in this cathedral and has many happy memories of the place I can say on behalf of myself and any of the people I've spoken to that we're very upset by what's happened. As I'm sure all of you know there's not a whole lot in Longford to be proud of and this was possibly the only genuinely impressive, historic monument we had. It was hard to be aything but impressed by the magnificence and grandeur of the exterior as well as the beautiful interior into which so much time and skill had been invested. Everything from the recently renovated oak benches to the paintings to the fantastic statues of the saints are most likely irreplaceable and will be sorely missed. It was/is a very important icon for Longfordians as can be seen by its presence on the county GAA and Longford Town FC crests and I sincerely hope it can be restored to it's former glory. It's probably what's needed to boost the morale of a fairly depressed town.

    I hope this thread can revert to a discussion for the people that are actually affected and not for conspiracy theorists and people itching to take a swipe at the catholic church.


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    #100
    TouchingVirus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,584 ✭✭✭TouchingVirus


    Was a nice enough building but I'm pretty sure the Vatican has enough money to cover it's restoration, or the insurance would cover it so I'll not be donating to have it restored. I feel no particular attachment to the building, having only been in it three times (once for some school mass thing, and twice for a funeral). Obviously it meant a great deal to many Longfordians though.


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    #101
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    No I would not despair if my home burned down; a few weeks ago we were flooded out of our home actually; and no regrets.

    Structurally too damaged ever to be lived in again.

    Just a building.

    Why bad language? is it no amazing that the only ones on this thread using bad language and abusing other posters are those who say this church meant so much to them?

    Does that not speak worlds re what the church is doing?


    Just a building.
    MDFM wrote: »
    Because, and i find it unusual to have to explain this...the cathedral is a building, if u havent already noticed that is..
    Would u not despair if you home was burnt down..or would that also be unhealthy..?
    what a load of b..


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    #102
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead"

    Why go backwards?

    Do you good people of Longford not know that the cathedral was built by starving survivors of the famine; working not for wages, but for a meagre loaf of bread to sustain their pitiful lives?

    Exploited by the Church.

    Slave labour, like ever other ancient church in Ireland. Sealed with the blood of them, not for the glory of God.

    Your ancestors. Dying there often.

    Interesting; a building that old must cost a huge amount in upkeep and maintenance.
    MDFM wrote: »
    and i thought this thread was about the loss of our beautiful cathedral..where some of us have spent a huge portion of our lives thro the normal passages of life - births/marriages/funerals..communions/confirmations and so on..
    this is a huge huge personal loss to some of us and is so far removed from the abuse scandals..
    so many people i know are in despair at the loss of this beautiful part of longford and i'm in sympathy with them as i'm sharing their grief..its a huge shock to the community and i hope we can restore it to its former glory eventually.


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    #103
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Graces7 wrote: »
    No I would not despair if my home burned down; a few weeks ago we were flooded out of our home actually; and no regrets.

    Structurally too damaged ever to be lived in again.

    Just a building.

    Why bad language? is it no amazing that the only ones on this thread using bad language and abusing other posters are those who say this church meant so much to them?

    Does that not speak worlds re what the church is doing?


    Just a building.

    Yawn.

    Im bored with you now.


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    #104
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Which it hoards and does not use for Ireland. The Vatican is the richest place in the world and demands immunity from tax etc.

    Every church and convent and monastery in Ireland is built by appealing to you. Period.

    It seems that few know this?

    And when a church or Order dies, assets go to Rome.

    Those are the facts.

    If it was arson, maybe the bishop "sparked" the idea off in his homily. Speaking of the other fire as he did.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    What benefit would that have been? The Vatican has plenty of money.

    Perhaps using Ockham's Razor would be most pragmatic: Probably an electrical fault, and I'm awaiting the fire officers report and the Garda report.


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    #105
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Then we agree on many things:)

    And I never said I thought it was arson.

    Let us share what we agree on then.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I never said you should.

    If I was sure that there was only 1 member of clergy I could trust in my church (non-Catholic) I'd be reconsidering my options and finding a new way to express my Christianity. That's all I'm saying. Do you really believe there is only 1 member of clergy that wasn't involved in this abuse?



    No. I'm actually saying that this burning if an arson is royally unacceptable. Likewise, child abuse is royally unacceptable, one wrong doesn't make the other acceptable.



    I think it's especially wrong that any Christian irrespective of whether they were ordained do this. My point is that child abuse seems to be a societal problem in general rather than just a church problem.



    When have I argued for condoning sin?



    Celibacy is one theological difficulty I have when assessing this. In both the Aaronite priesthood, and in the Pauline church it was acceptable for ministers to have wives.



    I agree. Does this make destroying a religious community a good thing?



    Good. I personally would like to see some reform, but how are people so certain that this is arson?


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    #106
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Fact; there was child abuse in this diocese; see the Ryan Report. Which the Bishop knew about.

    What actually happened remains to be seen.

    But there have been other incidents sadly; a lighted firework thrown into a Church during mass... someone defecating in a confessional

    Despicable and inexcusable acts..

    But damaged people do damaging things and order dissolves when the Shepherds break the Laws of God.

    Please God this does not lead to a campaign now.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is off topic.

    There is no evidence that any of the clergy involved in this cathedral were involved in child abuse. So unless you can provide evidence:
    1) That it was arson
    2) That there was a precadence of child abuse by the current clergy in this cathedral
    there is no reason to assume that it is because of child abuse, rather than a normal fault.


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    #107
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Because it is all interwoven.

    You cannot isolate one building like this.

    All part of the one Holy Mother Church; have you read the Catechism, and recent statements by the Holy Father and Archbishop Martin?

    Which I am quoting and echoing.

    If not then you need to.

    Because that is obedience to Holy Mother Church

    Which is what any Church is about.
    MDFM wrote: »
    the thread is about the cathedral burning...why dont' you start a thread about child abuse in the clergy rather than going off topic on this one?


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    #108
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    There was massive child abuse in this Diocese; read the Ryan Report.

    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    Johnny Giles, if people want to donate to the rebuilding, then don't let it worry you. however, if you do want to worry, then worry about the FAI and IRFU looking for donations to have people's names carved in stone in the AVIVA stadium.
    fund raising like this happens all the time, the fact that it's a Cathedral just makes it easy for some people to take potshots at the church. there is no evidence of any abuse having taken place in the whole diocese, nevermind the parish. neither is there any rumour of it having taken place. Longford is a small town, and word travels fast. so, please, keep this thread on topic.
    many of us are more than happy to contribute towards the rebuild, at least we'll be freely able to view the result, not like the AVIVA stadium where you'll pay for the privelidge to view the result before being asked kindly to leave by some dude in a fluorescent jacket.
    also, no one investigating the cause of the fire has gone into the building since the fire, so any rumours are just that.


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    #109
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Isn't it interesting and revealing that the only posters using disgracefully bad language and verbal abuse - which is a sin of course - are the ones who claim to value this building?

    Says a great deal as the rest of us are displaying no anger or rudeness


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    #110
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    Graces7,take a break yeah,you're so very obvious in the worst way.

    Like I said in my last post,Im bored with you.


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    #111
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Grace 7 might be going a bit OT but this is a public internet forum and a major issue is the timing of this fire - after a year of utterly sickening revelations about the church in Ireland - and is therefore relevant and significant to this thread.

    The catholic church abused children for generations in the the vilest, most horrific manner possible and covered up for their own protection and to perpetuate their power and thus they don't deserve ever to have any significant power or influence here again. There are too many people out there - still in complete denial of how rotten an organisation the Irish church was for so long.

    People need to wake up and grow up and think for themselves. The burning down of St. Mel's Cathederal was an unfortunate and regrettable incident - but no-one was killed in the fire and it's not the end of the world. If it was arson, which I hope was not the case, this could be the beginning of a campaign of church burnings.

    Ireland needs to move on from blind capitualtion to religion to a more mature, informed way of doing things. In many ways, this country still has a long, long way to go.


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    #112
    MDFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭MDFM


    Graces7 wrote: »
    No I would not despair if my home burned down; a few weeks ago we were flooded out of our home actually; and no regrets.

    Structurally too damaged ever to be lived in again.

    Just a building.

    Why bad language? is it no amazing that the only ones on this thread using bad language and abusing other posters are those who say this church meant so much to them?

    Does that not speak worlds re what the church is doing?


    Just a building.

    I suppose that just speaks for itself...did u say somewhere u writing a book? or whatever its is..good luck, you really need it...

    its more than just a building to some of us, maybe if you could respect the sense of loss felt by us associated with it then your narrowmindedness wouldnt be so insulting to us.


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    #113
    Micky 32
    Registered Users Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Here's a picture of the inside, not pretty!
    photo-2.jpg


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    #114
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Grace 7 might be going a bit OT but this is a public internet forum and a major issue is the timing of this fire - after a year of utterly sickening revelations about the church in Ireland - and is therefore relevant and significant to this thread.

    The catholic church abused children for generations in the the vilest, most horrific manner possible and covered up for their own protection and to perpetuate their power and thus they don't deserve ever to have any significant power or influence here again. There are too many people out there - still in complete denial of how rotten an organisation the Irish church was for so long.

    People need to wake up and grow up and think for themselves. The burning down of St. Mel's Cathederal was an unfortunate and regrettable incident - but no-one was killed in the fire and it's not the end of the world. If it was arson, which I hope was not the case, this could be the beginning of a campaign of church burnings.

    Ireland needs to move on from blind capitualtion to religion to a more mature, informed way of doing things. In many ways, this country still has a long, long way to go.

    How the fcuk is it relevant???

    Its a thread about a landmark building that was a massive part of the Longford community and was an intrinsic part in many peoples lives.

    Child abuse is the worst type of crime there is but the fcuking cathedral didnt molest anyone,the only ones talking about religon are you and that other dipstick,its a thread about the building,not the catholic church as an organisation.

    It cant be made any clearer than that.


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    #115
    SarahSassy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭SarahSassy


    There are obviously a number of bored muppets posting here looking for a row but as long as the posters who are actually interested in st mel's continue to reply to them then it's only adding fuel the the fire (pardon the pun). Ignore them and they will skuttle off to annoy someone else.

    The bishop has said the place was well insured so why would there be fund raising?


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    #116
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    "It's more than just a building" quite a few people have said this on here and each time it has caught my attention, is it now more than just a smoking shell?


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    #117
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I have posted on here that I regret the loss of the cathedral. I also stated that I hoped the cause of the fire was not arson. Any yet I and another poster are attacked for pointing out that the timing of this incident is highly significant given the events over the past year.

    Some posters are so blinkered and paranoid that they see any sort of discussion of the wider context of this fire as some sort of approval for what took place.

    It seems like closed minded and defensive parochialism and tribalism are indeed alive and well in the little country of ours.:( Another reason how much growing up this country has to do.


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    #118
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    It seems like closed minded and defensive parochialism and tribalism are indeed alive and well in the little country of ours.:( Another reason how much growing up this country has to do.

    It appears that you have another agenda to post in here. A place of worship has been destroyed. Whether we want to admit it or not, religious expression is something which defines our stages in life, and it is entirely normal and natural.

    Claiming that this in itself is "backwards" is plainly wrong.

    This place has clearly defined peoples lives in this community even if they don't believe, and it's certainly a shame to see it burn. It's also a defining part of the town.


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    #119
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It appears that you have another agenda to post in here. A place of worship has been destroyed. Whether we want to admit it or not, religious expression is something which defines our stages in life, and it is entirely normal and natural.

    Claiming that this in itself is "backwards" is plainly wrong.

    This place has clearly defined peoples lives in this community even if they don't believe, and it's certainly a shame to see it burn. It's also a defining part of the town.

    Religious expression does not define "our" stages in life, speak for yourself and not for your own church. How on earth couls this building define anything about peoples lives if they are non-believers. I was born baptised and confirmed in this diocese and had never stepped into that church until a few weeks ago, I found it quite negative but it defined zero to me, nothing whatsoever as a singular building. The symbolism of the building as ant symbol of the CC has become a negative symbol in this country. Anyone who says it has not is in serious denial of the Ryan, Ferns, and Murphy reports or chooses to pretend they do not exist.


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    #120
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    truthisfree wrote: »
    Religious expression does not define "our" stages in life, speak for yourself and not for your own church.

    I think it's a valid point in reference to most people in this country. People were baptised here, people received their communion, and were confirmed here, people were married here, and people were put to rest here.

    Irrespective of whether you agree or not, this Cathedral served a role in peoples lives.

    I wouldn't put so much weight on rituals in my faith myself, but for a lot of people even if they don't believe currently this Cathedral had a place in their lives. Is it too much to respect that rather than going on a rant about child abuse? No room for a bit of sensitivity?
    truthisfree wrote: »
    How on earth couls this building define anything about peoples lives if they are non-believers.

    The building, has sentimental value attached to it, not because of the mere shape of the building, but for what happened inside it for a lot of people.
    truthisfree wrote: »
    I was born baptised and confirmed in this diocese and had never stepped into that church until a few weeks ago, I found it quite negative but it defined zero to me, nothing whatsoever as a singular building.

    Which explains your lack of sensitivity towards it, both here and on other fora online. It also explains your need to squeeze your own agenda through the cracks.

    Can you not just recognise this: This Cathedral was important to people, and it's obvious that people see it as a bad thing.
    truthisfree wrote: »
    The symbolism of the building as ant symbol of the CC has become a negative symbol in this country. Anyone who says it has not is in serious denial of the Ryan, Ferns, and Murphy reports or chooses to pretend they do not exist.

    You're chucking your own agenda in here again. This has nothing to do with any report, this has to do with sentimental value.

    It's clear that you don't care about what happened to this building, but other people do.


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    #121
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think it's a valid point in reference to most people in this country. People were baptised here, people received their communion, and were confirmed here, people were married here, and people were put to rest here.

    Irrespective of whether you agree or not, this Cathedral served a role in peoples lives.

    I wouldn't put so much weight on rituals in my faith myself, but for a lot of people even if they don't believe currently this Cathedral had a place in their lives. Is it too much to respect that rather than going on a rant about child abuse? No room for a bit of sensitivity?



    The building, has sentimental value attached to it, not because of the mere shape of the building, but for what happened inside it for a lot of people.



    Which explains your lack of sensitivity towards it, both here and on other fora online. It also explains your need to squeeze your own agenda through the cracks.

    Can you not just recognise this: This Cathedral was important to people, and it's obvious that people see it as a bad thing.



    You're chucking your own agenda in here again. This has nothing to do with any report, this has to do with sentimental value.

    It's clear that you don't care about what happened to this building, but other people do.

    Quit putting words in my mouth!

    I have never stated that this building was not important to many people, everyone knows it was important to a lot of people.

    Where was the rant about child abuse?

    So what is my agenda, I know what yours is, evangelism, selling your own brand of Christianity, I defend your right to do this but you know full well that you can never sell a lie to me.

    I think the building is a loss to the people of Longford, and no, it is not a loss to me, when the twin towers came down I cried because those buildings had thousands of people in them and the interior was very familiar to me.

    I can see 100% can see why people would be upset over this building, but there was no loss of life, no injury whatsoever.

    I can understand a sentimental attachment to the building for the people who attended there frequently. I cannot for a second see anything in this incident that will make people question their beliefs in Catholicism, God or the afterlife, why would it?

    It will be re-built, maybe, I am not as sure as I was but I would like to see it used again, personally I think it would serve better as something other than a church, people may well disagree and they are entitled to more than I am as they will be prepared to fund it.

    As regards any agenda I may have, I feel I am objective, the negative reaction to anyone wondering whether there is a link with an aggrieved victim of the churches abuse is a normal reaction to an incident such as this. I will repeat as I have had to do many many times, I do not believe that this was arson, I would think that faulty wiring or whatever caused it, but I also could be wrong, I know little or nothing about forensics.

    I also know that as the Ryan report showed:
    The report published yesterday found widespread evidence of a cover-up by the Catholic Church, the State and Gardai.
    Link 27/11/2009

    This does not instil a whole lot of confidence!


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