Longford Cathedral on fire

Ghost Buster

Jakkass wrote: »

I can't help but think you're bringing an external agenda into this. Do you not think that it is hard for these people to lose a church that had sentimental value to them?

Im not bringing it in.This came into it pages back. Im joining in on a discussion. This is about the cathedral fire, there is a rumour of arson and im joining in on a discussion. Its absolutely impossible to have a polite chat about religion and related matters in this country. the moment it begins the wagons are circled, the heads go into the sand, the fingers go into the ears and thats it. game over.

john_d_baptist

I want to know one thing... and I dont want to sit reading through the reams of posts; has the cause of the fire been established yet?
thanks

philologos

According to Newstalk and the Irish Times it hasn't. It has been delayed due to safety concerns.

Ghost Buster

john_d_baptist wrote: »

I want to know one thing... and I dont want to sit reading through the reams of posts; has the cause of the fire been established yet?
thanks

No nothing yet. Lots of wild speculation and conspiracy theories but Im not even sure if the building is safe enough for forensics to enter.

silver campaign

john_d_baptist wrote: »

I want to know one thing... and I dont want to sit reading through the reams of posts; has the cause of the fire been established yet?
thanks

No, nothing official yet. There are lots of rumors, but none without substance. All they are are rumors. The most ridiculous being arson.
I suppose that comes with the territory though. No matter where or when a fire takes place, there will always be people who think and sometimes even hope it was arson. It won't be the case on this occasion though.

truthisfree

silver campaign wrote: »

No, nothing official yet. There are lots of rumors, but none without substance. All they are are rumors. The most ridiculous being arson.
I suppose that comes with the territory though. No matter where or when a fire takes place, there will always be people who think and sometimes even hope it was arson. It won't be the case on this occasion though.

No, It won't be, will it?

truthisfree

Ghost Buster wrote: »

No nothing yet. Lots of wild speculation and conspiracy theories but Im not even sure if the building is safe enough for forensics to enter.

The building had structural cracks on the front façade for some time, with the fire hoses being turned on the façade to protect it in freezing conditions, the water will have done serious damage to it, I am afraid that I would think that there is very little hope of supporting that building without millions spent on it and very very quickly. The rest of this very severe winter will quickly erode the support structures without it being covered from the elements in its entirety.

The Church is not acting fast on this and appears not to be acting at all I might add. This is purely from a point of view of someone who has experience of structural engineering.

philologos

truthisfree wrote: »

The Church is not acting fast on this and appears not to be acting at all I might add. This is purely from a point of view of someone who has experience of structural engineering.

Surely it's common sense not to act in official capacity before you have any evidence. The Roman Catholic Church has stated clear intentions to restore it, surely that's enough.

truthisfree

Jakkass wrote: »

Surely it's common sense not to act in official capacity before you have any evidence. The Roman Catholic Church has stated clear intentions to restore it, surely that's enough.

Try reading my post before answering, I was talking only from a structural point of view which has nothing whatsoever to do with the causes of the fire, why do you insist on twisting my words to suit yourself?

Always number 1

I was born and reared in Longford. My family and I were baptised as Catholics in St Mels Cathedral, we went to confession there, made our Communion and confirmation there. Different members of the family were at different times there, ministers of the word and ministers for the Eurcharist, altar boys, members of the choir. My grandparents were buried from there.
Over the years, my family and I attended school masses, easter ceremonys, Christmas masses etc; there. We always visited the crib on Christmas morning to get our piece of straw from the crib, we lit candles when we had exams coming up or other special intentions.
I no longer live in Longford but my family do. I attended Christmas morning mass in the church in my new parish and as I was praying and thinking back of Christmas masses I had been at in the Cathedral it was in flames.
I had intended to call into the Presbytery early in the New Year to book the church for my wedding and now that will not happen.
While I am not hugely religious, it played a huge part in my upbringing and I never truly realised what we - Longfordians - had til its (almost) gone.

dollydimples82

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I agree with you in some of what you say and neither am i a Catholic. I was raised as one but defected this year through countmeout.ie
But you asked - "how in the name of god can you set fire to a place of worship because of child abuse,"
If you read The Ryan report (I can post it if you cant find it on line) there is a section on what effect all the different forms of child abuse can have on the resulting adult mind. Its frightening and essentially means that there are walking time bombs in this country. Very sad, pitiable disturbed folk, angry as hell and out for justice. They arent getting it through normal means and so will inevitably get it them selves. I dont agree but i cannot lecture these folk.
I hope this wasnt arson but if not its just a matter of time before such events happen.

i havent read the ryan report but i do know from personal experience that burning down a building or shouting abuse can help no one, its only when you realise this can you move on with life.

dollydimples82

Always number 1 wrote: »

I was born and reared in Longford. My family and I were baptised as Catholics in St Mels Cathedral, we went to confession there, made our Communion and confirmation there. Different members of the family were at different times there, ministers of the word and ministers for the Eurcharist, altar boys, members of the choir. My grandparents were buried from there.
Over the years, my family and I attended school masses, easter ceremonys, Christmas masses etc; there. We always visited the crib on Christmas morning to get our piece of straw from the crib, we lit candles when we had exams coming up or other special intentions.
I no longer live in Longford but my family do. I attended Christmas morning mass in the church in my new parish and as I was praying and thinking back of Christmas masses I had been at in the Cathedral it was in flames.
I had intended to call into the Presbytery early in the New Year to book the church for my wedding and now that will not happen.
While I am not hugely religious, it played a huge part in my upbringing and I never truly realised what we - Longfordians - had til its (almost) gone.

i have to agree with you, we didnt realise what we had, its unfortunate that it took a fire to show us this.:(:(

Ghost Buster

dollydimples82 wrote: »

i havent read the ryan report but i do know from personal experience that burning down a building or shouting abuse can help no one, its only when you realise this can you move on with life.

With all due respect can I suggest you read it then before flippantly suggesting that the victims should just "move on with life''.
Many dont have a life of much worth to move on with and surprise surprise dont have as rational a thought process as you might wish they would.

MDFM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

With all due respect can I suggest you read it then before flippantly suggesting that the victims should just "move on with life''.
Many dont have a life of much worth to move on with and surprise surprise dont have as rational a thought process as you might wish they would.

so be it..the cathedral is going to be rebuilt..happy days. burning down a building doesnt repair the sins of the past.

Ghost Buster

MDFM wrote: »

so be it..the cathedral is going to be rebuilt..happy days. burning down a building doesnt repair the sins of the past.

"So be it"!!!!!! My god but your a cold one and with people of your mind set these are far from sins of the past. They will continue. Happy days ?
Genuine question:
Are you a parent?

dollydimples82

Ghost Buster wrote: »

With all due respect can I suggest you read it then before flippantly suggesting that the victims should just "move on with life''.
Many dont have a life of much worth to move on with and surprise surprise dont have as rational a thought process as you might wish they would.

prehaps you should re-read my quote,,,,,,, i never said that the victims should"move on with life", i said " i do know from personal experience that burning down a building or shouting abuse can help no one, its only when you realise this can you move on with life." i know of several people who suffered at the hands of the nuns and priest in Longford and i know how they suffered. i wouldnt expect anyone to forget what happened to them, or pretend its easy to move on from. its a dark place for anyone to be in when that kind of abuse happens, i know only to well of the threats and how scared these people were, i am not putting the abuse down as a walk in the park and quite frankly i am annoyed that you think that i do,. prehaps you need a new thread for this discussion as i thought this was about st mels cathedral fire not the ryan report. sorry for any offence but i think you miss read me.

SarahSassy

Ghost Buster wrote: »

"So be it"!!!!!! My god but your a cold one and with people of your mind set these are far from sins of the past. They will continue. Happy days ?
Genuine question:
Are you a parent?

Why are you still banging on? Take it to a new thread.

dollydimples82

Ghost Buster wrote: »

"So be it"!!!!!! My god but your a cold one and with people of your mind set these are far from sins of the past. They will continue. Happy days ?
Genuine question:
Are you a parent?

i dont see why been a parent has anything got to do with st mels been rebuilt???? why has this thread turned more towards the ryan report than the loss of such a beautiful building??? i think we all need to remember to "LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU". please can be get back to the discussion of longford cathedral fire.

ballsymchugh

dollydimples82 wrote: »

i just have one question for you micky 32, how did you get to take this photo?

I have been reading articles in all newspapers, listening to local news and yet the building has yet to be declared safe, hence delaying the forensics, yet you have a photo. I pass the cathedral every day and its under police guard day and night, i am not doubting that the photo is real, i have studied it and if i am correct it was taken from the right side of the alter?

the photo was taken from the left hand side as you look up the cathedral. you can make out the steps up to the altar, and the altar under some rubble just in front of the pillar on the left hand side. the place this photo was taken from is the holy family chapel, which had the least amount of damage done, according to one of the local priests, so someone was able to get in for a gander, probably a fire chief. i doubt he stayed for too long.

garfieldsghost

Latest word is that the structural engineer's preliminary inspection indicated that the building is not safe to enter, so it may be some time before the cause is established.

I also heard from one of the firemen that the wooden supports in the bell tower have been severely damaged and that they may not hold out. I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine some swift, major works would need to be carried out to secure it...

As an aside, I can't believe how far OT this thread has been allowed to become. Where are the mods when you need them? Half the posts here should be moved to a relevant conversation in the Christianity section...

philologos

While wading through the nonsense, it's sometimes nice to be able to read the stories of people who were connected with this cathedral. For those of you who have thanks for sharing, it made for interesting reading.

oppenheimer1

garfieldsghost wrote: »

Latest word is that the structural engineer's preliminary inspection indicated that the building is not safe to enter, so it may be some time before the cause is established.

I also heard from one of the firemen that the wooden supports in the bell tower have been severely damaged and that they may not hold out. I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine some swift, major works would need to be carried out to secure it...

As an aside, I can't believe how far OT this thread has been allowed to become. Where are the mods when you need them? Half the posts here should be moved to a relevant conversation in the Christianity section...

+1 Looks like the Mods have gone AWOL on perhaps the biggest thread ever on the Longford forum.

That info from the structural engineers doesn't surprise me too much unfortunately. If it had been the case that no stabilisation work needed to be carried out the forensics team would have been in there on Sunday. Even stabilising the structure will be a big challenge as the ruin is unsafe to enter. Hopefully there will be no strong winds before this urgent work can be done. Hopefully there will be no strong winds before this urgent work can be done. I'm guessing the area behind the altar is the quite unsafe with the potential for the walls to cave in due to attack from the heat and the lack of lateral support from the floors. Incidentally the area that would be of most interest to the forensics team. They could probably conduct their investigation without even really needing to visit the rest of the cathedral.

From the picture posted on the earlier page it also looks like the support structures in the main part took an almighty roasting and have disintegrated quite severely. If the column in the photo is typical of the damage (to the support structure) Restoration in its true sense rather than replacement will be very difficult (read expensive) from a technical point of view. It could be that the only original part to survive will be the front facade and tower with a modern rebuild behind it. The walls might even have to go. Hopefully that won't be the case.

Thats rather disturbing news relating to the bell tower though I don't think its on a wooden support, more likely its tied together with wooden beams. Without these a gust of wind could topple it. That said I've never been up in the tower so I'm only surmising.

ballsymchugh

the strangest thing that i've heard is that the foundation is made of compressed heather, which was the norm for buildings in Longford at the time. the facade is the most iconic part of the building, so hopefully it can be saved. the saddest part is listening to the elderly people talking about never being able to set foot in there again. let's hope it's not the case. some of us in Longford were dragged up by our parents and that generation, and owe everything to them. i know many, many people who are just saddened that they may not see it again.

ps, anyone know how to become a mod??!

dollydimples82

ballsymchugh wrote: »

the saddest part is listening to the elderly people talking about never being able to set foot in there again. let's hope it's not the case. some of us in Longford were dragged up by our parents and that generation, and owe everything to them. i know many, many people who are just saddened that they may not see it again.

i have to agree with you, my dad grew up behind st mels and he was deeply saddened by the fire. he said it was the 1st thing he seen when he woke up and last thing he saw at night. he used to play on the steps and in the gardens. he hopes that they will be able to keep the original building, as he thinks that if they have to knock it they will only build a concert structure and it wouldnt be the same.
I have just read the longford leader in which the bishop said that a group of young girls went on the wren and collected €400 to give to the st mels restoration fund, this is what st mels means to us longfordians. lets bring this thread back to the cathedral and our memories.

truthisfree

A crozier believed to have belonged to Saint Mel was found in the 19th century at Ardagh near the old cathedral of St. Mel. The crozier is now kept at Saint Mel's College in a darkened bronze reliquary that was once decorated with gilt and colored stones.

Link

I am not sure when this was written but it would be a stroke of luck if the crozier was not in St Mel's Cathedral when the fire gutted it.
I am going to keep looking...

truthisfree

truthisfree wrote: »

A crozier believed to have belonged to Saint Mel was found in the 19th century at Ardagh near the old cathedral of St. Mel. The crozier is now kept at Saint Mel's College in a darkened bronze reliquary that was once decorated with gilt and colored stones.

Link

I am not sure when this was written but it would be a stroke of luck if the crozier was not in St Mel's Cathedral when the fire gutted it.
I am going to keep looking...

Edit: This was written in 2006
Source:http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic/2006-02/msg00066.html

Cathedral, college and crozier
The Catholic cathedral in Longford is dedicated to St Mel, as is the nearby diocesan college. A crozier believed to have belonged to St Mel was found in the 19th century at Ardagh, near the old cathedral there. It is now kept in St Mel's College.

Catholic Ireland 30/12/2009

dollydimples82

truthisfree wrote: »

A crozier believed to have belonged to Saint Mel was found in the 19th century at Ardagh near the old cathedral of St. Mel. The crozier is now kept at Saint Mel's College in a darkened bronze reliquary that was once decorated with gilt and colored stones.

Link

I am not sure when this was written but it would be a stroke of luck if the crozier was not in St Mel's Cathedral when the fire gutted it.
I am going to keep looking...

sorry to dash your hopes but the following piece was written in todays LONGFORD LEADER....
"The fire also claimed a number of priceless important historical artefacts which were on display in the Diocesan Museum, based at the Cathedral.

"There were vestments and chalices which dated back to the 1600s; book shrines which were hand crafted by monks as well as the Bell of Fenagh Abbey and St Mel's Crozier which was 1,000 years old," Fr Tom Murray explained to the Leader on Monday."

I have heard that at a mass last saturday night that the priest said the only thing that was saved was a picture of the holy family, and according to the leader today that the Crypts under the cathedral where bishops were buried are intact.. Prehaps when the building is deemed safe more antiques can be saved. Also i think it would be nice to do a documentary on the restoration of st mels, many of us would love to be able to see the inside for ourselves and obviously we wont be allowed. But i think if at possible we should follow this from start to finish, it is history in the making.

truthisfree

dollydimples82 wrote: »

sorry to dash your hopes but the following piece was written in todays LONGFORD LEADER....
"The fire also claimed a number of priceless important historical artefacts which were on display in the Diocesan Museum, based at the Cathedral.

"There were vestments and chalices which dated back to the 1600s; book shrines which were hand crafted by monks as well as the Bell of Fenagh Abbey and St Mel's Crozier which was 1,000 years old," Fr Tom Murray explained to the Leader on Monday."

I have heard that at a mass last saturday night that the priest said the only thing that was saved was a picture of the holy family, and according to the leader today that the Crypts under the cathedral where bishops were buried are intact.. Prehaps when the building is deemed safe more antiques can be saved. Also i think it would be nice to do a documentary on the restoration of st mels, many of us would love to be able to see the inside for ourselves and obviously we wont be allowed. But i think if at possible we should follow this from start to finish, it is history in the making.

It does seem likely that it was in the Church when burned although it does not seem to have been in the Church 3 years ago.

As regards the restoration, way too soon to see if it can be restored, am quite negative on this one, this level of damage and the damage it will incur being exposed to the elements makes it very doubtful. A new Cathedral on same site maybe?

truthisfree

It was on Sunday, 6th May, 1838, that Dr. O'Higgins formally launched the project of
building a new cathedral in Longford. The old chapel there was in bad repair and was
usually overcrowded, as in addition to the people of the town and district it had to
accommodate a large detachment of the British military then stationed in Longford.
The bishop explained his project to a large meeting held after Mass in the old chapel. He
referred to the difficulties confronting him in the collection of funds due, to the evictions
on the Lefroy estate, and to what he called the "attempts at persecution resorted to by
Lord Longford," as well as to his own part in a recent struggle for independence in the
county, this latter a reference to an election in which the bishop had supported the
popular candidate against the landlords' nominee. Notwithstanding these difficulties,
however, the bishop was sure that he could rely on the Catholic spirit of the people of
Longford to carry the project to success. He ended by appealing to the people of the
parish to subscribe a sum of £2,000 before Michaelmas, when he himself would
contribute £4,000. The general appeal to the diocese was postponed until after the
ceremony of laying the foundation-stone.
Meantime generous help came from neighbouring dioceses, especially from Elphin, Tuam
and Meath. The collection in Elphin was made by Rev. Mr. O'Beirne, parish priest in
Newtownforbes, while the bishop himself visited the chief towns of Tuam and Meath from
Westport and Castlebar in the west to Navan and Drogheda in the east. His tour was
everywhere a triumph, both in the respect paid to him personally and in the generosity
which marked the people's response to his appeal.
Preparations were pushed forward for the inauguration of the building by the laying of
the foundation-stone. This, the first of many great ceremonies held in connection with St.
Mel's Cathedral, was finally fixed for Tuesday, 19th.
The Roman Catholic Cathedral of Longford, above all other places in the county, is worthy
of a visit, for there is no other similar erection in Leinster. For the stupendousness of its
proportions, the height of its tower, the massiveness of its columns, and its gorgeous
interior decorations, the Cathedral of Longford can vie with any other in Ireland. The first
stone was laid on the 19th of May, 1840, by the then bishop, Right Rev. William
O'Higgins, and it was completed and opened on 29th September, 1856, by the Right Rev.
John Kilduff, his immediate successor, than whom no greater benefactor of God's poor
and God's Church ever lived. The cathedral is cruciform in shape, consisting of a nave,
two transepts, two aisles, and a spacious chancel. In the aisles and round the whole
church, at a distance of some twelve feet from the ground, there are niches placed
between each window, in which the present illustrious and saintly bishop has erected
costly statues of the saints and the Holy Family; and in recent years a large sum has
been expended in the interior decoration of the church. The roof is supported by more
than 24 large columns, massively thick, and cut out of a limestone quarry in the parish of
Newtowncashel. Underneath the floor of the church are vaults for the interment of priests
and there are also here interred the remains of the founder and opener of the cathedral.
The erection of this stupendous building cost £60,000, and the high altar (which is cut
out of French marble) and the grand organ cost £10,000. The collection of this vast sum
to erect a fitting temple for the Catholics of the centre of Ireland surely reflects credit on
those who undertook the herculean task; and the writer fully sensible that he is unable to
do sufficient justice to the result of their labours. The architectural beauty and finish of
the mouldings of the ceiling are alone worthy of the greate praise but it would require a
more skilled and experience writer than I am to adequately describe the whole building, a
personal visit to which will amply repay the stranger.
James P. Farrell
Historical Notes of County Longford

Archiseek

According to these articles the renovations that were done to S. Mels were met with a lot criticism, seemingly the original interior was by far superior to what was done to it later with one observer stating:

I thought it might be useful to consider St. Mel's Cathedral in Longford where a vandalism on Christianity, not seen since the time of Attilla the Hun, was practised by C.B. Daly.

JupiterKid

It looks like the damage of even the stone work and shell of St. Mel's Cathedral was so severe from the fire, that not even this aspect of the building will be able to be saved and the structure may have to be demolished and completely rebuilt as damage would be beyond restoration.

In light of this possibility, should some type of iconic modern structure be put in its place or should the original cathedral be rebuilt in the original style?

It's a terrible loss of the precious artefacts contained within the cathedral and the adjacent museum.:(