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A Christmas Present for Senior Civil Servants

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245

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    #32
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    There are two points to consider with this decision:
    1) Their bonus is gone and well done for that too as there was probably no means of measuring performance anyway; combine that with the announced cuts and the overall cut would have been well out of proportion with the rest of the PS.

    2) Aren't these guys the very civil servants who are coming up with the cuts and their implementation plans - if so then they are doing a great job in saving us loads of money.....;)


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    #33
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    ninty9er wrote: »
    This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

    It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

    and what exactly dont you understand about my post? im angry that everybody has taken paycuts except the high ranking civil servants, isint that what this thread is about??????????

    you should start your own thread where you can pretend to be on a high horse and try talk down to people because acting like a keyboard warrior is kinda pathetic :rolleyes:


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    #34
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Kceire`s point is....
    I`m angry that everybody has taken paycuts except the high ranking civil servants, isint that what this thread is about

    However it`s equally valid to say that nobody has "Taken" the pay cuts,but rather they have had these cuts IMPOSED upon them.

    That,of itself,is not a problem except when we see the very Architects of the cuts then moving to seriously minimise the effects of the cuts upon themselves.

    It is not the average Clerical Officer Grade 2 that the Minister For Finance consults with when formulating his policy,but rather more certainly it will be the Departmental Secretaries General and Assistant Secretaries who will "inform and guide" the Minister in his decisions and actions.

    This particular little stunt has all the fingerprints of a handful of "usual,long serving suspects" all over it and easily equals anything that the "Bankers" have managed to pull off....and it ain`t over yet !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #35
    terenc
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    ninty9er wrote: »
    This is not about mortgages or people out of work.

    It's a thread about senior civil servants' pay. Start another thread if you want, one called "I'm a public sector worker and want to rant" would probably get plenty of replies.

    Get off your horse and smell the grass that is if the horse dont crap on you when your smelling the grass. Of course its about people who have families to support and are now unemployed and worked to keep these people in employment. :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #36
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.


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    #37
    terenc
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

    Well if you dont know what all the fuss is about and your an intelligent person what hope for the rest of us. Whats a P60:rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #38
    ghost_ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ghost_ie


    Nurses, firemen and ambulance men take the cuts. The higher civil servants don't. Will there be an outcry about it? No. Says a lot about the people we value in our society, doesn't it?


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    #39
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Irrespective, these "senior civil servants and public service workers" will see 5 figure cuts to their P60 next year, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

    that's what the fuss is about:
    On budget day, the Minister for Finance announced that civil servants earning between €165,000 and €200,000 would take pay cuts of 12% while those earning over €200,000 would take pay cuts of 15%

    We were lied to, plain and simple


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    #40
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    peasant wrote: »
    that's what the fuss is about:


    We were lied to, plain and simple
    Those whose P60 would have read €195k this year will read €168k for 2010. That is a permanent measure. How is it not a cut?


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    #41
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    ninty9er wrote: »
    How is it not a cut?

    It is not the cut that was announced in the budget.

    You, as a true blooded FF-ler wouldn't understand this, but leadership is not about announcing one thing to appease the masses (and pretend that you're sharing the burden) and then reversing it on the sly on Chritmas Eve so nobody notices.

    That's treachery ..but in your party leadership and treachery are all one and the same anyway.

    And now please, just stop defending the indefensible. We have been lied to (again) and that's that.


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    #42
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    peasant wrote: »
    It is not the cut that was announced in the budget.

    You, as a true blooded FF-ler wouldn't understand this, but leadership is not about announcing one thing to appease the masses (and pretend that you're sharing the burden) and then reversing it on the sly on Chritmas Eve so nobody notices.

    That's treachery ..but in your party leadership and treachery are all one and the same anyway.

    And now please, just stop defending the indefensible. We have been lied to (again) and that's that.

    thats how most things work with this goverment. announce one thing with the media soundbite accompanying it
    then implement another policy that they hope nobody will notice
    most glaringly obvious in areas like education


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    #43
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    I'm in disbelief here. The article was quite clear. There are still cuts, but now the scrapping of "bonuses" will be considered part of them. I'd consider it a cut if I wasn't getting a bonus, the same as those who got one for years for sitting on their arse did.


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    #44
    TCP/IP_King
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭TCP/IP_King


    terenc wrote: »
    Am I SURPRISED am i F### anything goes with this government. We have some very angry people in this country at the moment and if they want civil unrest they are going the right way about it.

    The French Revolution resulted from two state crises which emerged during the 1750s – 80s, one constitutional and one financial, with the latter providing a 'tipping point' in 1788/9, when desperate action by government ministers backfired and unleashed a revolution against the 'Old Regime'. In addition to these there was the growth of the bourgeoisie, a social order whose new wealth, power and opinions undermined the older feudal social system of France.


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    #45
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    ninty9er wrote: »
    I'm in disbelief here.
    Shouldn't you be at a Bertie book signing somewhere? :D


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    #46
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    ninty9er wrote: »
    I'm in disbelief here. The article was quite clear. There are still cuts, but now the scrapping of "bonuses" will be considered part of them. I'd consider it a cut if I wasn't getting a bonus, the same as those who got one for years for sitting on their arse did.

    The bonuses were basically part of normal salary.


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    #47
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Those whose P60 would have read €195k this year will read €168k for 2010. That is a permanent measure. How is it not a cut?

    Scrapping of a bonus is not a "permanent measure". It will be introduced as soon as the economy picks up again, whereas everyone else will have had a permanent cut. Scrapping a bonus also doesn't affect their pension whereas the pay cuts for other public servants will affect their pension.

    It would have been much fairer to leave the bonus and implement a straight pay cut.


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    #48
    Arathorn
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Arathorn


    Also people on social welfare lost their Christmas bonus but this isn't taken into account for their cuts.


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    #49
    picpress
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭picpress


    Stark wrote: »
    Scrapping of a bonus is not a "permanent measure". It will be introduced as soon as the economy picks up again, whereas everyone else will have had a permanent cut. Scrapping a bonus also doesn't affect their pension whereas the pay cuts for other public servants will affect their pension.

    It would have been much fairer to leave the bonus and implement a straight pay cut.

    So it appears now that proposed 1.3bn euro pay savings will now not be met nor will be permanent perhaps the government would have been wiser not to flip flop on the 12 days leave option. After all was the reason it was rejected was that it did not meet the savings required or it was not permanent!! Now everybody has been made mugs of.


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    #50
    gerry28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭gerry28


    So now the high paid senior public servants will be taking a 1.8% pay cut and the higher again will take a 4% paycut... whereas someone on 25K or 30K will take a 5% cut(the 10% bonus is not a pay cut).

    Only some should be getting the bonus each year anyway. Unless of course they are all really really great at their jobs and deserve the bonus every year :rolleyes: (i' call that just doing your job well).

    We are all mugs in this country - they will get away with it just like they always do.
    'The fightin irish' my aras... 'the roll over and take what your givin irish' would be more accurate.


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    #51
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    Sorry, but since when is a bonus classed as part of a salary? The clue is in the title, it's a bonus. It can either be paid, or not paid. It is not salary.

    For a start, were they receiving these bonuses based on actual performance? Judging by the amount of expenditure going on over the last few years, unchecked, I would say no. It was about time these bonuses were stopped.

    Secondly, their salaries should have been cut as per the budget read out. Was there anything else rolled back?

    If these people assumed their bonus was something entitled to them, or owed to them, then more fool them. It wasn't. A paycut is just that, a PAYcut, a cut to your salary.


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    #52
    picpress
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭picpress


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    A paycut is just that, a PAYcut, a cut to your salary.

    Ya just like the pension levie


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    #53
    gerry28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭gerry28


    BroomBurner wrote: »
    Secondly, their salaries should have been cut as per the budget read out. Was there anything else rolled back?

    So in reality the government will only take a 5% and the higher paid public servants take a 1.8% and 4% cut - it would make you want to vomit :(


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    #54
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    picpress wrote: »
    Ya just like the pension levie

    The pension levy is not the same thing as a paycut as the pension levy doesn't affect your pensionable income.


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    #55
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Stark wrote: »
    Scrapping of a bonus is not a "permanent measure". It will be introduced as soon as the economy picks up again, whereas everyone else will have had a permanent cut. Scrapping a bonus also doesn't affect their pension whereas the pay cuts for other public servants will affect their pension.
    .

    Direct Quote:
    He also ended the performance-related bonus scheme for top civil and public servants, which over recent years has involved an average payout of 10 per cent of salary.
    Scheme ended = permanent


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    #56
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Continuing the quotes:
    Having said that, it remains our view that such awards will have an important role to play in the future when economic stability has been restored.


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    #57
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I havent really kept track since starting this, but if you reckon there is a gaping hole in Prof. Whelans argument, you should post it in the comments section of his blog, he is pretty good for replying.


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    #58
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Stark wrote: »
    Continuing the quotes:

    That was not part of the report, it's complete conjectutre.


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    #59
    terenc
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    Arathorn wrote: »
    Also people on social welfare lost their Christmas bonus but this isn't taken into account for their cuts.

    These people dont exist has far as this government is concerned. We are marking down time in this country and what do I mean by that, well at some stage when the banks send in the sheriffs to process homes and businesses, people will take the law into their own hands to protect their homes , their businesses, not everybody, but it only takes a spark to cause a inferno and if this government is seen to appease its highly paid civil servants then and are not taking the pain that day or reckoning is not far away.
    But then again quite a few posting on this thread would call the above waffle.I hope it is waffle but why am I thinking and posting this?


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    #60
    RGS
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭RGS


    Why is it only higher paid civil/public servants get bonuses?

    Our nurses, firemen, teachers dont get a bonus and they are the front liners who implement the policies put forward by the higher civil servants.

    Personally no public servant should have been in receipt of a bonus.

    The pay cuts announced on budget day should be implemented in full and tough luck on those who were in receipt of bonuses.

    The term bonus means additional payment for meeting targets, is should not be considered part of the salary.


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    #61
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,236 ✭✭✭Dr. Kenneth Noisewater


    Nobody should be surprised by this.

    I'm a low paid civil servant and we've been watching this roll out in front of our eyes for a while now. These lads always get some sort of cushion when they have to take a blow while its tough luck to the masses. Our country is never going to drag itself out of this mess while the government carries on like this. So disappointing.


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