A Christmas Present for Senior Civil Servants

gerry28

ZYX wrote: »

After the Government cut pay of other Public Servants by 5% will the government actually pay 5% less to this group? No
Will these public servants earn 5% less this year than last year? NO.
The same applies for all other income levels and includes the majority of civil servants, nurses, teachers, gardai etc.
This is one of the main reasons why despite a pay freeze last year and a recruitment ban government spending on pay actually increased.

Why do people have a problem with those who will get their income cut by the amount the government said, but no problem with those who will not see their income cut by the promised amount?

You couldn't have 2 people doing the same job indefinitely on different wages, with one stuck on 25K and their workmate on 35K, the whole system would have to be changed.

The government will have increments factored into there annual paybill. Pay rises are a seperate matter altogether.

Under normal circumstances older staff retire on max income scale and newer staff are recruited at the bottom. Over a given length of time with the numbers in equalling the numbers out the paybill shouldn't be increasing.

picpress

westtip wrote: »

Just going back to the OP these senior civil servants realy believed this piece of bullsh*t could be slipped though before christmas on Monday the airwaves will be back to normal and this one - will hit the fan.

It reminds me of the Quote "a good day to bury bad news" that was used when a government wanted to bury something before....it makes me sick.

Even more sickening is the fact that they did this because it would be "unfair" to the top brass in the civil service who from my point of view are very well payed compared to our european conterparts

"The Irish Times reports that a government statement said that it would have “been unfair” to these grades not to make these adjustments."
taken from Karl Whelans origional post

What about it being unfair to those earning below 30K who are being cut 5%

What more would you expect from a flip flop government who are caught like rabbits in the headlights - hope they are enjoying the extra weeks break they voted for themselves before Christmas!!

ninty9er

picpress wrote: »

It reminds me of the Quote "a good day to bury bad news" that was used when a government wanted to bury something before....it makes me sick.

Even more sickening is the fact that they did this because it would be "unfair" to the top brass in the civil service who from my point of view are very well payed compared to our european conterparts

"The Irish Times reports that a government statement said that it would have “been unfair” to these grades not to make these adjustments."
taken from Karl Whelans origional post

What about it being unfair to those earning below 30K who are being cut 5%

What more would you expect from a flip flop government who are caught like rabbits in the headlights - hope they are enjoying the extra weeks break they voted for themselves before Christmas!!

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

picpress

ninty9er wrote: »

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

Perhaps if the professional classes were to reduce their prices we might all feel like we were pulling together after all we are now in a deflationary spiral.

ninty9er

picpress wrote: »

Perhaps if the professional classes such as GPs Dentists Solicitors were to reduce their prices we might all feel like we were pulling together after all we are now in a deflationary spiral.

SERIOUSLY, they will do what the market dictates, if you don't pay, they'll drop prices. Finbnger pointing isn't going to solve any problems

A cleaner recently hired to the civil sservice has a starting rate of €10.20/hour for a 39 hour week after the cuts, that's €1.55 above minimum wage for what is regarded as a job that was "beneath" many Irish people for the past number of years.

Anyone who think's that's harsh needs a swift reality check.

gerry28

ninty9er wrote: »

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

Yeah and to hell with fairness :rolleyes:

ninty9er

gerry28 wrote: »

Yeah and to hell with fairness :rolleyes:

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

gerry28

ninty9er wrote: »

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

I don't think we should be happy to accept anything that is thrown our way in the interests of getting the country back on track. There is no harm in looking for fairness in the process.

imme

ninty9er wrote: »

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

thanks government spokesman!
when did you realise that all Public Service workers are overpaid, was it before or after benchmarking, before or after the housing bubble, before or after the banking crash.
For us to get back on track does that mean that building societies will lend over 100% of the price of a property. Will either of the 2 big banks (never mind Anglo) make a billion a year profit again. Will people who work in Dublin have to buy a house in Drogheda or Portarlington.

deise blue

ninty9er wrote: »

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

picpress

deise blue wrote: »

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

The senior civil servants have now taken a very dangerous road by making representations to the cabinet to soften their pain. If they loose the respect of those who report to them it will make it very hard for them to govern. The whole thing is a shambles and needs to be reversed as the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Taken from Gene Kerrigan in todays SIndo

In the recent Budget, the Government decided that Civil Service big shots on over e165,000 a year would have to take a pay cut of 12 per cent. And that those on over e200,000 would have 15 per cent lopped off. This showed that we're all "pulling together", because "we're all in the same boat". The disabled and those on lower pay and social welfare are taking a hammering, but at least they know that the big shots are doing their share. And Circular 28/2009 clarifies the Budget decision.

Now, when I say that it "clarifies" the Budget decision, what I mean is it "cancels" it, by order of the Cabinet. Quietly -- while the rest of us were busy preparing for Santa.

Over at the Irish Economy blog, UCD economics professor Karl Whelan noticed the circular. He reckons it means the top civil servants will take cuts not of 12 and 15 per cent but effective cuts of 3 and 5.4 per cent.
This cynical let-off for the highest-paid civil servants was reported, but because of the timing, media schedules, the Christmas haze and the absence of Joe Duffy's Liveline, it got little traction. We're constantly told that we're all in this mess together -- but somehow the elite manage to find loopholes.

gerry28

picpress wrote: »

We're constantly told that we're all in this mess together -- but somehow the elite manage to find loopholes.

And lets not forget among this class are the decision makers of the last 10 years. The very people whose poor judgement has played a major roll in leading us down this path.

All along the way they have lifted bonuses and pay increases but now the going gets tough they want to be excused from taking a fair share of the pain (is it really painfull at their level of pay anyway?).

Welease

gerry28 wrote: »

All along the way they have lifted bonuses and pay increases but now the going gets tough they want to be excused from taking a fair share of the pain (is it really painfull at their level of pay anyway?).

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

gerry28

Welease wrote: »

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

Nobody is going to wish for pain? I was always concerned about the lack of fairness in how the pain was doled out.

Plenty have taken real pain... but then again plenty have not.

terenc

Welease wrote: »

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

deise blue wrote: »

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

This thread was derailed a few posts back.
and what the feck are you going to achieved by industrial action????

Slaacer

this is a joke... and I love their timing too - doing this in the mist of xmas when we have our attention on other things then politics...

I thought they said it will be fair and equitable !!! pffff it says it all frankly

Riskymove

Firstly I am glad to see the end of those fecking perfromance awards which were a complete joke.

However, this truely is a disgrace that they are allowed combine the two things to reduce their cut.

I would point out though that this is a very small group of people and in no way represents the overall civil service

ninty9er

The purpose of the cuts in the budget was to reduce the cost to the state of senior civil servants by 12%-15%.

Will this be achieved? YES
Will senior civil servants see their remuneration reduced by 12%-15%? YES

This is a storm in a teacup. The targeted reduction in cost will be achieved, that is the kernel of the matter and realistically, what section of pay it comes from is of no interest to the Dept. of Finance as long as it has an extra €20k-€30k in the Current Account per civil servant, this is the case, it will be satisfied.

Welease

Interesting how bonus's and increments are not considered by some to be pay rises (and therefore cannot be used to offset the actual % cuts to a pay packet), but the removal of such bonus's and increments is considered a pay cut

Just musing ....

Riskymove

ninty9er wrote: »

The purpose of the cuts in the budget was to reduce the cost to the state of senior civil servants by 12%-15%.

Will this be achieved? YES
Will senior civil servants see their remuneration reduced by 12%-15%? YES

This is a storm in a teacup. The targeted reduction in cost will be achieved, that is the kernel of the matter and realistically, what section of pay it comes from is of no interest to the Dept. of Finance as long as it has an extra €20k-€30k in the Current Account per civil servant, this is the case, it will be satisfied.

the difference is that the vast majority have had to take a number of reductions in different areas while these posts have argued that their cut should be offset as another payment has been done away with....thats even before discussing how that payment operated

that has not been allowed in the case of other posts

in fact there was major outcry over consultants trying to do something similar

westtip

ninty9er wrote: »

This is a storm in a teacup. The targeted reduction in cost will be achieved, that is the kernel of the matter and realistically, what section of pay it comes from is of no interest to the Dept. of Finance as long as it has an extra €20k-€30k in the Current Account per civil servant, this is the case, it will be satisfied.

This is not a storm in a teacup, why was this disgusting announcement made on December 23rd - to try and slip it through quietely. Thankfully due to this modern age of communication - it couldn't be quietely slipped through - and the Senior Civil Servants have now managed to even get under the noses of the beards. This one will not go away - these people have just exposed themselves for greedy bunch of pigs in the trough that they are. I read Banana Republic over the Christmas holidays, brilliant book but the kind of action we saw from the political classes on this issue only goes to prove any hope this country has for recovery will not happen because the flabby white boys in "charge" won't let the gravy train stop.

Diarmuid

ninty9er wrote: »

The purpose of the cuts in the budget was to reduce the cost to the state of senior civil servants by 12%-15%.

Will this be achieved? YES

Will this be achieved? NO
The cost to the state includes the pension costs, which will not be reduced after this little 3 card trick.

ninty9er

Diarmuid wrote: »

Will this be achieved? NO
The cost to the state includes the pension costs, which will not be reduced after this little 3 card trick.

Pension costs will be reduced by up to 4%, alright, this is where an issue arises, but given the small number of people it affects, the savings still outweigh the reduction in the reduction.

If there are, for example 100 people in the public service earning above €165k taking an average of €180k for all of them, that is a cost of €180m before PRSI, pension contributions etc...add the 10% average bonus another €18m. Now deduct 4% (average reviewed pay cut) from €180m and you get €172.8m. So now instead of spending €198m on these 100 high earners, the state is paying them €172.8m, a SAVING of €25.2m or 12.8% average. Notwithstanding pensions, the measures will most likely be in line with the budget for the year.

Riskymove

ninty9er wrote: »

Pension costs will be reduced by up to 4%, alright, this is where an issue arises, but given the small number of people it affects, the savings still outweigh the reduction in the reduction.

If there are, for example 100 people in the public service earning above €165k taking an average of €180k for all of them, that is a cost of €180m before PRSI, pension contributions etc...add the 10% average bonus another €18m. Now deduct 4% (average reviewed pay cut) from €180m and you get €172.8m. So now instead of spending €198m on these 100 high earners, the state is paying them €172.8m, a SAVING of €25.2m or 12.8% average. Notwithstanding pensions, the measures will most likely be in line with the budget for the year.

on that basis....Guards/nurses could seek a lower pay cut as overtime as been curtailed....TDs because travel expenses have been reduced etc

everyone else has taken cuts from all angles...it should be the same for these people

the bonuses should be stopped and salary cut as announced....one should not reduce the other

ninty9er

At this point I have said all I have to say...as for anyone else who thinks senior civil servants will not be down between 12%-15%
a) you're wrong
b) tell it to someone who cares

Flamed Diving

ninty9er wrote: »

At this point I have said all I have to say...as for anyone else who thinks senior civil servants will not be down between 12%-15%
a) you're wrong
b) tell it to someone who cares

b) Someone like you? Given the number of posts you have made in this thread...

Laminations

One thing that annoys me more than Fianna Fail and their handling of this country and economy is the people who continue to defend them. Ninty9er (for some reason) is going out of his way to defend the indefensible. Yeah sure you can continue to debate him for as long as possible but at some stage, as with all Fianna Fail sympathizers, you just have to press ignore. His brick head will never get the link between this government and injustice. And if he thinks us all ignoring him is terribly unfair, well then..

ninty9er wrote: »

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

What a sterling argument he proposes. While the rest of the country is building bridges to get over, the people at the top are cushioning themselves from this recession in the name of 'fairness'. If life has to be unfair it should be unfair for us all.

Diarmuid

ninty9er wrote: »

given the small number of people it affects, the savings still outweigh the reduction in the reduction.

by that logic there's no point cutting their salary at all.

Me thinks "you really don't get it"™

ninty9er

Laminations wrote: »

If life has to be unfair it should be unfair for us all.

ZYX

Diarmuid wrote: »

Will this be achieved? NO
The cost to the state includes the pension costs, which will not be reduced after this little 3 card trick.

True their pension costs will not be reduced. Like all public servants there has been no reduction in pensions. This applies equally to them as it does to teachers, nurses, gardai etc.

Senior civil servants will have their pay cut between 2008 and 2010 by 23.5% (including pension levy), Average teacher (for example) will have their pay reduced by about 7 or 8% (despite what they say in papers). No other group comes remotely close in terms of size of paycut they have taken.

They have also had other cuts like others eg milage, subsistence allowance. They cannot get their overtime cut as they do not get paid overtime (or get time in lieu) despite having to do overtime.

ROS123

Simple reply, but I have said before on here, the people at the top make the rules, simple as, the rest of us plebs just have to grin and bear it..........

BlaasForRafa

Riskymove wrote: »

Firstly I am glad to see the end of those fecking perfromance awards which were a complete joke.

However, this truely is a disgrace that they are allowed combine the two things to reduce their cut.

I would point out though that this is a very small group of people and in no way represents the overall civil service

Indeed. The higher echelons of the PS seemed to thing that performance related bonuses were a RIGHT instead of a bonus. Their performance the last few years has been shoddy in the extreme so its only right that it be withdrawn but for them to claim it as part of their wages is obscene.

The lowest paid in the civil service are getting effectively shafted by their union colleagues, the mandarins.

irish_bob

brian lennehan in his interview with sean o rourke today , stated that the grade of civil service ( something like 150 in number ) which has seen its pay cut over turned are in fact benchmarked against their counterparts in other european countries , when sean o rourke mentioned how the teachers union were outraged at this row back , lennehan remarked how he would be happy to discuss benchmarking teachers pay against thier counterparts in other european countries

this puts an entirely new spin on the whole thing

Welease

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The lowest paid in the civil service are getting effectively shafted by their union colleagues, the mandarins.

Has there been a response from the unions?

terenc

picpress wrote: »

Perhaps if the professional classes were to reduce their prices we might all feel like we were pulling together after all we are now in a deflationary spiral.

Can you see that happening:rolleyes: Doctors, Dentists, Consultants looking after people whom are ill and not getting top euro for it :rolleyes:
These people will charge and charge.:):):):) ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. The sadness is people will go without medical care and possibly die.
These people are invaluable to our society so we must pay tribute to them ,probably up there with the senor civil servants.:rolleyes:

irish_bob

terenc wrote: »

Can you see that happening:rolleyes: Doctors, Dentists, Consultants looking after people whom are ill and not getting top euro for it :rolleyes:
These people will charge and charge.:):):):) ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. The sadness is people will go without medical care and possibly die.
These people are invaluable to our society so we must pay tribute to them ,probably up there with the senor civil servants.:rolleyes:

all those gods you mentioned above are people who sell a service , time they were exposed to market forces , theyve been opperating in a closed shop for far too long

Riskymove

ZYX wrote: »

True their pension costs will not be reduced. Like all public servants there has been no reduction in pensions. This applies equally to them as it does to teachers, nurses, gardai etc.

current pensioners have not been hit but public servants retiring in the future will be on lower pensions than they would have been

Senior civil servants will have their pay cut between 2008 and 2010 by 23.5% (including pension levy), Average teacher (for example) will have their pay reduced by about 7 or 8% (despite what they say in papers). No other group comes remotely close in terms of size of paycut they have taken.

actually, other civil servants have taken the same cut

They have also had other cuts like others eg milage, subsistence allowance. They cannot get their overtime cut as they do not get paid overtime (or get time in lieu) despite having to do overtime.

their salaries are supposed to reflect the fact that they are required to work beyond normal hours

At this point I have said all I have to say...as for anyone else who thinks senior civil servants will not be down between 12%-15%
a) you're wrong
b) tell it to someone who cares

I think you are mis-reading the arguments..... but if you don't care why get involved?

ZYX

Riskymove wrote: »

current pensioners have not been hit but public servants retiring in the future will be on lower pensions than they would have been

The details of this have not yet been published. There is every reason to believe senior civil servants will be hit harder than other public servants if the system is changed from final salary pension to average salary pension as has been suggested.

Riskymove wrote: »

actually, other civil servants have taken the same cut

I meant the same as senior civil servants not the same as teachers. Public servants on average have taken less than 10% cut between last two budgets. Senior civil servants have taken over 23%. No other group has taken anything close to a 23% pay cut.

Riskymove wrote: »

their salaries are supposed to reflect the fact that they are required to work beyond normal hours

I accept that, but it needs to be remembered when comparing wages or when people say how overpaid they are.

Riskymove

ZYX wrote: »

The details of this have not yet been published. There is every reason to believe senior civil servants will be hit harder than other public servants if the system is changed from final salary pension to average salary pension as has been suggested.

salaries have been reduced, therefore pensions will be lower than they would have been

The other issue of changing to average salary is seperate to that; certainly any review of pension arrangments will be very contentious and probably the new battleground

I meant the same as senior civil servants not the same as teachers. Public servants on average have taken less than 10% cut between last two budgets. Senior civil servants have taken over 23%. No other group has taken anything close to a 23% pay cut.

My point is that other civil servants (i.e. other than "Senior") have taken same cuts without any amelioration through handy "bonuses"

I accept that, but it needs to be remembered when comparing wages or when people say how overpaid they are.

agreed

westtip

Look what we all have to face is the simple facts, we the great unwashed will never get around the flabby white boys of the political classes its impossible, this state is now not possible to reform as those who need to reform simply won't do it as they are like former east european leaders and the protected classes of many African states simply not prepared to give up the bar of chocolate; they are fleecing the system. The next 18 months will be very important, regardless of the so-called recovery we are seeing in the properly run countries, with no reform here we are simply destined to become the West Virginia of Europe - the poorest state in Union of the United States of America for those who don't know, emigration will balloon, public services will decline further but our senior civil servants and political classes will continue to take what cream they can, and then finally and thankfully external agencies - ie the IMF and ECB will come in to sort out the failings of Government for the last decades of misgovernance and incompetence. Roll on those days.

deise blue

terenc wrote: »

This thread was derailed a few posts back.
and what the feck are you going to achieved by industrial action????

The usual , disruption to services allied to negative worldwide publicity (overstating it there perhaps European wide ) with a view to dragging the Government back to the negotiating table.

imme

irish_bob wrote: »

brian lennehan in his interview with sean o rourke today , stated that the grade of civil service ( something like 150 in number ) which has seen its pay cut over turned are in fact benchmarked against their counterparts in other european countries , when sean o rourke mentioned how the teachers union were outraged at this row back , lennehan remarked how he would be happy to discuss benchmarking teachers pay against thier counterparts in other european countries

this puts an entirely new spin on the whole thing

just what "spin" do you foresee IB?
More benchmarking for teachers?

Laminations

Quote from above- Public servants on average have taken less than 10% cut between last two budgets. Senior civil servants have taken over 23%. No other group has taken anything close to a 23% pay cut

@ ZYX Why are you comparing the cuts taken by the highest paid civil servants against those taken by the lower paid? The whole 'equitable' idea is that those who can afford it most pay most. And the fact is the Review Body for Higher Remuneration recommended the higher cuts as well as abolishing the bonuses. They took all of your points into consideration and still came up with these figures. The government then u-turned to placate the men and women who hold the big red button that could bring about an election. This thread is about the underhand u-turn. If you wanna start talking about unfairness in cuts look at the blind, the sick and the poor first, cos thats where the government looked

westtip

Laminations wrote: »

Quote from above- Public servants on average have taken less than 10% cut between last two budgets. Senior civil servants have taken over 23%. No other group has taken anything close to a 23% pay cut

Apart from the many in well paid private sector jobs who are now on the dole, the senior level civil service needs its pay cut in half and its numbers cut in half.

eigrod

Seems strange that these bonuses were only factored in when it came to a pay reduction. They were not factored in at all when these grades were being awarded the same % increases as the lower Civil Servants in the 10 years up to September 2008 (the nett effect of which was that, in real monetary terms, those at the top moved light years ahead of those in the middle/bottom of the pile).

Riskymove

westtip wrote: »

Apart from the many in well paid private sector jobs who are now on the dole, the senior level civil service needs its pay cut in half and its numbers cut in half.

based on very careful, detailed scrutiny of the operation of the civil service no doubt:rolleyes:

westtip

Riskymove wrote: »

based on very careful, detailed scrutiny of the operation of the civil service no doubt:rolleyes:

No go for mass slaughter get rid of half of them then find out if we need anymore and build from there - might turn out we need 60% of them not 50% but cut down the forest create a clearing and work it out from a clean sheet.

Riskymove

westtip wrote: »

No go for mass slaughter get rid of half of them then find out if we need anymore and build from there - might turn out we need 60% of them not 50% but cut down the forest create a clearing and work it out from a clean sheet.

and how do you decide which 50% to fire?

mind you, maybe its not such a bad idea......maybe we could lay off every private sector worker and start from scratch....let them all then bid for the vacant jobs..would probably increase competitiveness..:rolleyes:

pippox

Welease wrote: »

Has there been a response from the unions?

Most of the unions do seem to be very quiet on this issue

Then again, haven't the heads of the major unions used the salaries of senior public servants as a justification for their own salaries?

BroomBurner

pippox wrote: »

Most of the unions do seem to be very quiet on this issue

Then again, haven't the heads of the major unions used the salaries of senior public servants as a justification for their own salaries?

I've asked my union whether they will be campaigning to have the u-turn reversed, in the interest of fairness for their own members (they do not include the higher PS), and whether they are willing to campaign against another union. No answer as of yet.