A Christmas Present for Senior Civil Servants

sceptre

gerry28 wrote: »

I think this quote imported from another thread sums it up nicely.

Ah, dude, if you read the rest of the thread, it doesn't particularly sum up anything at all. Something similar was said in the early part of this discussion as a starting point though but there have been plenty of more extended views since.

ZYX

picpress wrote: »

I just said that the cuts at lower wages would be hit harder as it would push them closer to the breadline to spell it out for you.

Absolut total and complete bullsh1t. Most lower paid workers in public service got pay increments of 2-3% this year. They then got a pay cut of 5% leaving them 2-3% worse off. But inflation was running at 6.6% so in effect they got an above inflation pay rise of about 4%.

Higher earners (of which I am not one) got their pay cut by 23% in last 14 months. Lower paid by about 3%. How the fcuk do you realistically think lower paid are taking a bigger hit?

gerry28

sceptre wrote: »

Ah, dude, if you read the rest of the thread, it doesn't particularly sum up anything at all. Something similar was said in the early part of this discussion as a starting point though but there have been plenty of more extended views since.

Agreed sceptre probably not the most groundbreaking of quotes, but worth a second mention

ZYX wrote: »

Absolut total and complete bullsh1t. Most lower paid workers in public service got pay increments of 2-3% this year. They then got a pay cut of 5% leaving them 2-3% worse off. But inflation was running at 6.6% so in effect they got an above inflation pay rise of about 4%.

Not true for the staff at the top of their payscale. People receive increments for the first 6, 8 or 10 years in the job bringing them from a low starting salary up to that of their co workers.

I don't class an increment as a payrise.

Traumadoc

ZYX wrote: »

This thread is spouting rubbish that senior civil servants are not taking a big enough hit. Despite the fact that all senior civil servants and hospital consultants will have seen their take home pay decrease by at least 30%. The real problem is that retired civil servants have not had their pensions reduced. Senior civil servants are paid bonuses as this does not form part of the pension entitlements. It is in effect part of the pay and not really a bonus as we think of it. Reducing the bonuses is identicle to reducing pay except it does not effect the pension they receive.

Many hospital consultants do 0 private work and are stopped from doing so by the terms of their contract. I love the idea you have that people do not work more than 48 hours a week. It is so naiive.

You somehow think consultants should be paid a comparable salary to secretaries. Why? To have become a consultant in this country you need

1. A leaving cert result in the top 1% of all canidates
2. Done 6 years in College and in most cases received honours
3. Have 15-20 years experience working 70-80 hours a week.
4. Passed numerous post graduate exams which you study for in your spare time including in most cases a PHd.
5. Done extensive published research
6. Applied for and gotten every promotion available to you.

After all that in most cases you will not get a consultant job in Ireland and have to emmigrate. How is that comparable to a secretary? If you want to compare consultants to another job then at least use a job where you need 20 years experience and where you work 60 hours a week and where you have received every promotion going.

I like most hospital consultants agree that there has to be pay cuts, but I feel that the roll back in senior public servants pay cuts is unfare especially to the lower paid public workers who are truly hurting.

Hootanany

Just take the pain Scroungers

Stark

gerry28 wrote: »

I don't class an increment as a payrise.

ixoy

Stark wrote: »

See it's not seen as a pay rise because, I believe, it's perceived as being part of the terms and conditions of your employment. A pay rise is seen as when the pay at these levels is increased. This "increment" some see as just ensuring you're remunerated commensurate with your experience.
Of course the simple fact is that, at the bare bones of it, they've received a rise in their pay which should definitely help offset any cuts they may have experienced.

picpress

Traumadoc wrote: »

I like most hospital consultants agree that there has to be pay cuts, but I feel that the roll back in senior public servants pay cuts is unfare especially to the lower paid public workers who are truly hurting.

Funny you use the word unfair in your post because this exactly why the government wanted to make this change to the budget as it would be unfair to the senior brass in the public service. I think it is very underhand the way they tried to sneak this newsdump in on the 23 December when everybody was getting the last minute preprations for the family christmas. A big thanks must go to Karl Whelan for posting this on Irish Economy Blog

ZYX

ixoy wrote: »

See it's not seen as a pay rise because, I believe, it's perceived as being part of the terms and conditions of your employment. A pay rise is seen as when the pay at these levels is increased. This "increment" some see as just ensuring you're remunerated commensurate with your experience.
Of course the simple fact is that, at the bare bones of it, they've received a rise in their pay which should definitely help offset any cuts they may have experienced.

It is an important point about this whole thread though. The aim of pay cuts is to reduce government spending.
After the cuts, will the government paybill to senior civil servants be 15% less this year? Yes
Will Senior Civil Servants earn on average 15% less this year? Yes

After the Government cut pay of other Public Servants by 5% will the government actually pay 5% less to this group? No
Will these public servants earn 5% less this year than last year? NO.
The same applies for all other income levels and includes the majority of civil servants, nurses, teachers, gardai etc.
This is one of the main reasons why despite a pay freeze last year and a recruitment ban government spending on pay actually increased.

Why do people have a problem with those who will get their income cut by the amount the government said, but no problem with those who will not see their income cut by the promised amount?

westtip

Just going back to the OP these senior civil servants realy believed this piece of bullsh*t could be slipped though before christmas on Monday the airwaves will be back to normal and this one - will hit the fan.

gerry28

ZYX wrote: »

After the Government cut pay of other Public Servants by 5% will the government actually pay 5% less to this group? No
Will these public servants earn 5% less this year than last year? NO.
The same applies for all other income levels and includes the majority of civil servants, nurses, teachers, gardai etc.
This is one of the main reasons why despite a pay freeze last year and a recruitment ban government spending on pay actually increased.

Why do people have a problem with those who will get their income cut by the amount the government said, but no problem with those who will not see their income cut by the promised amount?

You couldn't have 2 people doing the same job indefinitely on different wages, with one stuck on 25K and their workmate on 35K, the whole system would have to be changed.

The government will have increments factored into there annual paybill. Pay rises are a seperate matter altogether.

Under normal circumstances older staff retire on max income scale and newer staff are recruited at the bottom. Over a given length of time with the numbers in equalling the numbers out the paybill shouldn't be increasing.

picpress

westtip wrote: »

Just going back to the OP these senior civil servants realy believed this piece of bullsh*t could be slipped though before christmas on Monday the airwaves will be back to normal and this one - will hit the fan.

It reminds me of the Quote "a good day to bury bad news" that was used when a government wanted to bury something before....it makes me sick.

Even more sickening is the fact that they did this because it would be "unfair" to the top brass in the civil service who from my point of view are very well payed compared to our european conterparts

"The Irish Times reports that a government statement said that it would have “been unfair” to these grades not to make these adjustments."
taken from Karl Whelans origional post

What about it being unfair to those earning below 30K who are being cut 5%

What more would you expect from a flip flop government who are caught like rabbits in the headlights - hope they are enjoying the extra weeks break they voted for themselves before Christmas!!

ninty9er

picpress wrote: »

It reminds me of the Quote "a good day to bury bad news" that was used when a government wanted to bury something before....it makes me sick.

Even more sickening is the fact that they did this because it would be "unfair" to the top brass in the civil service who from my point of view are very well payed compared to our european conterparts

"The Irish Times reports that a government statement said that it would have “been unfair” to these grades not to make these adjustments."
taken from Karl Whelans origional post

What about it being unfair to those earning below 30K who are being cut 5%

What more would you expect from a flip flop government who are caught like rabbits in the headlights - hope they are enjoying the extra weeks break they voted for themselves before Christmas!!

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

picpress

ninty9er wrote: »

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

Perhaps if the professional classes were to reduce their prices we might all feel like we were pulling together after all we are now in a deflationary spiral.

ninty9er

picpress wrote: »

Perhaps if the professional classes such as GPs Dentists Solicitors were to reduce their prices we might all feel like we were pulling together after all we are now in a deflationary spiral.

SERIOUSLY, they will do what the market dictates, if you don't pay, they'll drop prices. Finbnger pointing isn't going to solve any problems

A cleaner recently hired to the civil sservice has a starting rate of €10.20/hour for a 39 hour week after the cuts, that's €1.55 above minimum wage for what is regarded as a job that was "beneath" many Irish people for the past number of years.

Anyone who think's that's harsh needs a swift reality check.

gerry28

ninty9er wrote: »

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

Yeah and to hell with fairness :rolleyes:

ninty9er

gerry28 wrote: »

Yeah and to hell with fairness :rolleyes:

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

gerry28

ninty9er wrote: »

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

I don't think we should be happy to accept anything that is thrown our way in the interests of getting the country back on track. There is no harm in looking for fairness in the process.

imme

ninty9er wrote: »

The sooner people cop on to the fact that EVERYONE in the public sector is overpaid, the sooner we can put allof this behind us. You'll get a increment soon anyway, that IS a payrise and to claim any different contradicts the argument being made that bonuses being cut isn't a pay cut.

So can you all find your noses and re-attatch them to your faces so that we can pull together and get this country back on track.:mad::mad:

thanks government spokesman!
when did you realise that all Public Service workers are overpaid, was it before or after benchmarking, before or after the housing bubble, before or after the banking crash.
For us to get back on track does that mean that building societies will lend over 100% of the price of a property. Will either of the 2 big banks (never mind Anglo) make a billion a year profit again. Will people who work in Dublin have to buy a house in Drogheda or Portarlington.

deise blue

ninty9er wrote: »

Life's not fair, build a bridge and get over it.

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

picpress

deise blue wrote: »

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

The senior civil servants have now taken a very dangerous road by making representations to the cabinet to soften their pain. If they loose the respect of those who report to them it will make it very hard for them to govern. The whole thing is a shambles and needs to be reversed as the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Taken from Gene Kerrigan in todays SIndo

In the recent Budget, the Government decided that Civil Service big shots on over e165,000 a year would have to take a pay cut of 12 per cent. And that those on over e200,000 would have 15 per cent lopped off. This showed that we're all "pulling together", because "we're all in the same boat". The disabled and those on lower pay and social welfare are taking a hammering, but at least they know that the big shots are doing their share. And Circular 28/2009 clarifies the Budget decision.

Now, when I say that it "clarifies" the Budget decision, what I mean is it "cancels" it, by order of the Cabinet. Quietly -- while the rest of us were busy preparing for Santa.

Over at the Irish Economy blog, UCD economics professor Karl Whelan noticed the circular. He reckons it means the top civil servants will take cuts not of 12 and 15 per cent but effective cuts of 3 and 5.4 per cent.
This cynical let-off for the highest-paid civil servants was reported, but because of the timing, media schedules, the Christmas haze and the absence of Joe Duffy's Liveline, it got little traction. We're constantly told that we're all in this mess together -- but somehow the elite manage to find loopholes.

gerry28

picpress wrote: »

We're constantly told that we're all in this mess together -- but somehow the elite manage to find loopholes.

And lets not forget among this class are the decision makers of the last 10 years. The very people whose poor judgement has played a major roll in leading us down this path.

All along the way they have lifted bonuses and pay increases but now the going gets tough they want to be excused from taking a fair share of the pain (is it really painfull at their level of pay anyway?).

Welease

gerry28 wrote: »

All along the way they have lifted bonuses and pay increases but now the going gets tough they want to be excused from taking a fair share of the pain (is it really painfull at their level of pay anyway?).

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

gerry28

Welease wrote: »

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

Nobody is going to wish for pain? I was always concerned about the lack of fairness in how the pain was doled out.

Plenty have taken real pain... but then again plenty have not.

terenc

Welease wrote: »

Without wishing to derail the thread, I didn't see many in the PS posting here over the last few months who wished to take their "fair share" of the pain. The PS senior management have just been more effective in limiting the pain to them.

deise blue wrote: »

Well let's see what co-ordinated industrial action achieves first !

This thread was derailed a few posts back.
and what the feck are you going to achieved by industrial action????

Slaacer

this is a joke... and I love their timing too - doing this in the mist of xmas when we have our attention on other things then politics...

I thought they said it will be fair and equitable !!! pffff it says it all frankly

Riskymove

Firstly I am glad to see the end of those fecking perfromance awards which were a complete joke.

However, this truely is a disgrace that they are allowed combine the two things to reduce their cut.

I would point out though that this is a very small group of people and in no way represents the overall civil service

ninty9er

The purpose of the cuts in the budget was to reduce the cost to the state of senior civil servants by 12%-15%.

Will this be achieved? YES
Will senior civil servants see their remuneration reduced by 12%-15%? YES

This is a storm in a teacup. The targeted reduction in cost will be achieved, that is the kernel of the matter and realistically, what section of pay it comes from is of no interest to the Dept. of Finance as long as it has an extra €20k-€30k in the Current Account per civil servant, this is the case, it will be satisfied.

Welease

Interesting how bonus's and increments are not considered by some to be pay rises (and therefore cannot be used to offset the actual % cuts to a pay packet), but the removal of such bonus's and increments is considered a pay cut

Just musing ....

Riskymove

ninty9er wrote: »

The purpose of the cuts in the budget was to reduce the cost to the state of senior civil servants by 12%-15%.

Will this be achieved? YES
Will senior civil servants see their remuneration reduced by 12%-15%? YES

This is a storm in a teacup. The targeted reduction in cost will be achieved, that is the kernel of the matter and realistically, what section of pay it comes from is of no interest to the Dept. of Finance as long as it has an extra €20k-€30k in the Current Account per civil servant, this is the case, it will be satisfied.

the difference is that the vast majority have had to take a number of reductions in different areas while these posts have argued that their cut should be offset as another payment has been done away with....thats even before discussing how that payment operated

that has not been allowed in the case of other posts

in fact there was major outcry over consultants trying to do something similar