Hull City Vs. Manchester United

curry-muff

Mitch Connor wrote: »

terrible performance from United today, really terrible. Shocking we came away with the win.

As they say its the sign of the champions when you play terrible and still win 3-1.

elius

Anyone got a link to the goals! Was on the way home from waterford so couldnt watch the match!

d22ontour

http://www.mightyfootball.com/

curry-muff

http://www.101greatgoals.com

Best place to catch all the goals accross europe.

Pro. F

Really enjoyed that match today despite our total inability to string passes together. There was a fair bit of luck in the result but the truth is United had the quality to make the luck.

I always think Fletcher and Carrick don't work together in the centre and that was certainly the case today. It didn't help that Giggs had an absolute shocker as well.

I was thinking that Rooney was a bit un-sharp today but he positioned himself well for the first goal; after having a brain fart for the Hull goal he then did really well to make the other two for United. His assist for Berbatov's goal was lovely.

It was such a nice suprise to have two (count 'em) fit centre backs. Please god they've not picked up any niggles from today.

Right back in the race now. Yay

greendom

Des wrote: »

United couldn't pass wind.

Hull didn't take what chances they got.

Then got a penalty.

Rooney was probably United's best player. Creating the chance for the OG. And Berba's goal.

Hull's best player too

SlickRic

curry-muff wrote: »

As they say its the sign of the champions when you play terrible and still win 3-1.

it is.

but you'd like to think, i'd assume, that you'll play well at some point.

i can't really remember the last 'vintage' utd performance.

don't get me wrong, the one thing i admire about utd is their ability to win when they shouldn't due to their mental strength. it's one of things i hate them for too funnily enough...

but honestly, probably Manchester City at home was the last time i thought utd looked really really impressive.

in terms of this season, thank all your lucky stars for Rooney, Giggs and Fletcher, in that order. without them i laugh (yet also cry) at the thought of where you might be.

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

it is.

but you'd like to think, i'd assume, that you'll play well at some point.

i can't really remember the last 'vintage' utd performance.

don't get me wrong, the one thing i admire about utd is their ability to win when they shouldn't due to their mental strength. it's one of things i hate them for too funnily enough...

but honestly, probably Manchester City at home was the last time i thought utd looked really really impressive.

in terms of this season, thank all your lucky stars for Rooney, Giggs and Fletcher, in that order. without them i laugh (yet also cry) at the thought of where you might be.

city and spurs are the only games I really think that United have played well from an attacking point of view. Against Wolfsburg at home, once Berbatov came on, we played some amazing stuff too.

Really want to see United play some exciting football again, far too few performances have actually been impressive this season.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

it is.

but you'd like to think, i'd assume, that you'll play well at some point.

i can't really remember the last 'vintage' utd performance.

don't get me wrong, the one thing i admire about utd is their ability to win when they shouldn't due to their mental strength. it's one of things i hate them for too funnily enough...

but honestly, probably Manchester City at home was the last time i thought utd looked really really impressive.

in terms of this season, thank all your lucky stars for Rooney, Giggs and Fletcher, in that order. without them i laugh (yet also cry) at the thought of where you might be.

7th and out of the CL?:pac:

Arra you know I'm only kidding SlickRic.

As I said in the United thred, I'd written this off as a transiton season, so I'm happy to be in the position United are in. They could pip this one by default if they keep grinding out the wins. Their position in the league is down to Fergie insyilling a wining mentality and grit in them as much as anything IMO.

But you're right its been poor. In truth we haven't seen the swashbuckling United of old in 2 seasons now.

d22ontour

SlickRic wrote: »

it is.

but you'd like to think, i'd assume, that you'll play well at some point.

i can't really remember the last 'vintage' utd performance.

The amount of games were we have performed well i could probably count on 1 hand this season.

The aul we will get better after xmas theory i feel won't hold this season as when we are poor, teams who on paper we should be brushing aside, as in lower placed teams are actually taking points from us when what we are reknowned for is actually kinda still on track.That might not make much sense but titles are never won by beating the top 6 teams but by beating the other 14 teams , might explain it a bit better.
We are actually picking up wins which maybe is somewhat par for course with us but this season we seem to be way below par and something i feel may not be enough for the 4 in a row i have wet dreams about...We are but a couple of players and a keeper short of Lyon type domination imo.Now that is something i feel our aim should be but financially i just don't know.

greendom

d22ontour wrote: »

..We are but a couple of players and a keeper short of Lyon type domination imo.Now that is something i feel our aim should be but financially i just don't know.

Have you seen the french league recently. Their days of dominance appear to be behind them

SlickRic

flahavaj wrote: »

As I said in the United thred, I'd written this off as a transiton season, so I'm happy to be in the position United are in. They could pip this one by default if they keep grinding out the wins. Their position in the league is down to Fergie insyilling a wining mentality and grit in them as much as anything IMO.

absolutely.

such is that mentality, i've tipped them ahead of Chelsea now at the halfway point to win it. that's the only reason. Ferguson.

but most times they play they look kind of half there for the taking.

but then again, all the top teams do.

actually it's just a really baffling league this year. it's nigh-on impossible to analyse anything.

d22ontour

greendom wrote: »

Have you seen the french league recently. Their days of dominance appear to be behind them

Fail link of fail tbh.

But anyway they have dominated French football period.If that link is to the current table then i can only assume the previous 7 or is it 8 years don't count as domination to you ?

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

absolutely.

such is that mentality, i've tipped them ahead of Chelsea now at the halfway point to win it. that's the only reason. Ferguson.

but most times they play they look kind of half there for the taking.

but then again, all the top teams do.

actually it's just a really baffling league this year. it's nigh-on impossible to analyse anything.

As far as I can see United's problems are a combination of a number of factors:

1. Dropping in standards in defence. Rio when he hasn't been injured has been awful (maybe/hopefully down to playing on with a bad back for too long). Vidic still hasn't returned to the days when he looked impassable around 9 months ago.

2. Lack of true quality in midfield. While Fletcher has developed into an outstanding all action midfielder and should now be first choice EVERY match, there is no top qulality partner. While there are certainly plenty of bodies in the squad, no one jumps out as a top class partner for him. Anderson to me is worth persisting with but always looks better as the attacker in a 3 man midfield. Carrick is fine for most Premier matches outside the really good teams, but regularly shown up for quickness of feet and lack of composure against the big teams. Scholes is really only a part timer now and while hes still as good a passer of the ball as there is in the league, again he needs the protection of a 3 man midfield. Gibson for me won't make it as a regular at United, grand for the Carling Cup, but has little to offer outside a good shot on him.

3. Strikeforce not compatible. United desperately need a pacy attacker who plays as an out and out forward. If only Saha wasn't such a sicknote he'd be a United legend by now. Rooney/Berba just doesn't work for me as both want to drop deep and neither is happy on the shouder of the defender. As a result United play all their stuff in front of the opposition and a lack of pace up front akes it hard to stretch the game like they did back in the days of Cole and Yorke destroying Europe's best or hit teams on the break. Losing Ronaldo's pace contributes to this.

4. General lack of pace in the side.

SlickRic

nice analysis flah.

with so many standards dropping, it's a wonder you're so close.

pace is indeed a key issue. if valencia can get consistency into his game he could be huge for you.

the pace issue is also a huge reason why rooney is so key.

i'd be willing to give berba more time...but do you still think he's worth persistence with, considering you, and many others here, feel the partnership is, plain and simply, not compatible?

greendom

d22ontour wrote: »

Fail link of fail tbh.

But anyway they have dominated French football period.If that link is to the current table then i can only assume the previous 7 or is it 8 years don't count as domination to you ?

Thanks for the heads up - corrected now No of course they dominated but just pointing out that they seem to be in a transitional period of their own at the moment.

Seems like you're being a bit greedy if you wanted even more success over the last decade or so. Lyon would have gladly traded a couple of league winners medals for one of your Champions league titles

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

nice analysis flah.

with so many standards dropping, it's a wonder you're so close.

pace is indeed a key issue. if valencia can get consistency into his game he could be huge for you.

the pace issue is also a huge reason why rooney is so key.

i'd be willing to give berba more time...but do you still think he's worth persistence with, considering you, and many others here, don't feel the partnership is, plain and simply, not compatible?

I don't dislike berba per se like many on here do. Some of the stuff he does no one else in the league can do. His first touch is sublime, he can open a defence with passes others just don't see. Its just that Rooney excels in the same area of the pitch that he does. He has been poor and nowhere near justified his transfer fee IMO, but its not solely his fault: I think hes just the wrong man for United's system.

Put it this way, if you offered me a fully fit injury free Louis Saha who was guaranteed to start 40 games a season in return for Berba I'd take your hand off. Not necessarily because Saha is better, but because Saha is exactly the type of striker that United needs, Berba isn't. As I said earlier, if Saha wasn't so injury prone he'd be a club legend at United and an easy 30 goal a season man.:(

The dream man for me would be Villa, but thats not gonna happen. It baffles me why Fergie has gone from collecting pacy, on the shoulder strikers for fun to now not seeing the need for even one anymore.

Also re: Valencia, I like the lad a lot. He seems an honest lad whos willing to learn and could be a very very good player in a few years. I like that straight away hes gotten himself in the goals, something that he had failed to do previously. He offers genuine width and pace and his crossing is great if inconsistent.

d22ontour

flahavaj wrote: »

As far as I can see United's problems are a combination of a number of factors:

1. Dropping in standards in defence. Rio when he hasn't been injured has been awful (maybe/hopefully down to playing on with a bad back for too long). Vidic still hasn't returned to the days when he looked impassable around 9 months ago.

Agree with this.

flahavaj wrote: »

2. Lack of true quality in midfield. While Fletcher has developed into an outstanding all action midfielder and should now be first choice EVERY match, there is no top qulality partner. While there are certainly plenty of bodies in the squad, no one jumps out as a top class partner for him. Anderson to me is worth persisting with but always looks better as the attacker in a 3 man midfield. Carrick is fine for most Premier matches outside the really good teams, but regularly shown up for quickness of feet and lack of composure against the big teams. Scholes is really only a part timer now and while hes still as good a passer of the ball as there is in the league, again he needs the protection of a 3 man midfield. Gibson for me won't make it as a regular at United, grand for the Carling Cup, but has little to offer outside a good shot on him.

Can't say i agree with this in all fairness.I do agree we don't have the Scholes of old but bar the lack of Fletch and fergie getting it wrong , i think we might have won back to back CL's, not taking anything from Barca , they truely outplayed us, but in fairness it should have been Chelsea in the final.So no whining about my if's and but's because in reality Chelsea were robbed. I feel so durty saying that.

flahavaj wrote: »

3. Strikeforce not compatible. United desperately need a pacy attacker who plays as an out and out forward. If only Saha wasn't such a sicknote he'd be a United legend by now. Rooney/Berba just doesn't work for me as both want to drop deep and neither is happy on the shouder of the defender. As a result United play all their stuff in front of the opposition and a lack of pace up front akes it hard to stretch the game like they did back in the days of Cole and Yorke destroying Europe's best or hit teams on the break.

I agree kinda with this, i thought Berb was a decent player with Spurs but i still think he doesn't suit United, we need an out and out and until we get then i will ridicule Berb at my leisure.

flahavaj wrote: »

Losing Ronaldo's pace contributes to this.

4. General lack of pace in the side.

This i don't agree with , we can still c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-counter attack imo.

Pro. F

SlickRic wrote: »

i'd be willing to give berba more time...but do you still think he's worth persistence with, considering you, and many others here, feel the partnership is, plain and simply, not compatible?

Since there are other flaws in the United attack that need to be sorted out (ie lack of a quality ACM that Fergie trusts and wingers not fully clicking), I think the Berbatov question doesn't have to be answered yet. Imo it would be most cost effective if we sorted those other issues - which do absolutely need to be sorted - first and then reasses Berba after.

Edit: there's talk of him needing knee surgery soon, that might force Fergie's hand of course

Peyton Manning

flahavaj wrote: »

2. Lack of true quality in midfield. While Fletcher has developed into an outstanding all action midfielder and should now be first choice EVERY match, there is no top qulality partner. While there are certainly plenty of bodies in the squad, no one jumps out as a top class partner for him. Anderson to me is worth persisting with but always looks better as the attacker in a 3 man midfield. Carrick is fine for most Premier matches outside the really good teams, but regularly shown up for quickness of feet and lack of composure against the big teams. Scholes is really only a part timer now and while hes still as good a passer of the ball as there is in the league, again he needs the protection of a 3 man midfield. Gibson for me won't make it as a regular at United, grand for the Carling Cup, but has little to offer outside a good shot on him.

This is huge, and its something Ive been noticing lately. Fletcher is the only midfielder we have who deserves to be picked there on merit. The rest are only being picked to make up the numbers. Ive been a huge defendant of Michael Carrick since he joined us. He got a lot of stick from opposition fans for his price tag and the fact that he rarely features in a highlight reel, but he was always the type of player who made the right pass, whether is was a simple one to the player 4 feet beside him or angled chip over the defence. He even started adding goals to his game come his second season. He was our best player for the first half of the 07/08 season (keeping in mind Ronaldo had a slow start to the season before going on to amaze everybody). But his performances started to slip last season, and he hasnt recovered since. Anderson hasnt developed at all after his first season, and seems to be coasting on the reputation he gained among the fans and the fact he has his own song. Scholes' best days are behind him Im afraid. He made a triumphant return from his eye injury, and had one of his best seasons for us in 06/07 but he has been so poor this season, even with aspects of his game you expect him to never struggle with, like simple passes along the ground. The three of them need a swift kick up the arse, and the sooner Hargreaves comes back and shows them they need to work harder, the better. I know a midfield combination of Hargreaves and Fletcher might not work well in our current system, but when Hargreaves comes back Id like to see us try something along these lines:

....................VDS

O'Shea.....Vidic......Rio.......Evra

........Hargreaves..Fletcher

..Valencia....Berbatov.....Giggs

..................Rooney

That's given the current players available to us. That could change depending on who we sign (if anybody) come January or the Summer.

Y2J_MUFC

Archimedes wrote: »

This is huge, and its something Ive been noticing lately. Fletcher is the only midfielder we have who deserves to be picked there on merit. The rest are only being picked to make up the numbers. Ive been a huge defendant of Michael Carrick since he joined us. He got a lot of stick from opposition fans for his price tag and the fact that he rarely features in a highlight reel, but he was always the type of player who made the right pass, whether is was a simple one to the player 4 feet beside him or angled chip over the defence. He even started adding goals to his game come his second season. He was our best player for the first half of the 07/08 season (keeping in mind Ronaldo had a slow start to the season before going on to amaze everybody). But his performances started to slip last season, and he hasnt recovered since. Anderson hasnt developed at all after his first season, and seems to be coasting on the reputation he gained among the fans and the fact he has his own song. Scholes' best days are behind him Im afraid. He made a triumphant return from his eye injury, and had one of his best seasons for us in 06/07 but he has been so poor this season, even with aspects of his game you expect him to never struggle with, like simple passes along the ground. The three of them need a swift kick up the arse, and the sooner Hargreaves comes back and shows them they need to work harder, the better. I know a midfield combination of Hargreaves and Fletcher might not work well in our current system, but when Hargreaves comes back Id like to see us try something along these lines:

....................VDS

O'Shea.....Vidic......Rio.......Evra

........Hargreaves..Fletcher

..Valencia....Berbatov.....Giggs

..................Rooney

That's given the current players available to us. That could change depending on who we sign (if anybody) come January or the Summer.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except the part about Anderson. He is only popular because everyone can see he has potential and he is worth persisting with for the foreseeable future. Hes only 21. His best years are 7-8 years away yet. You can't just throw away a guy who has bags of potential. Sure, he is inconsistent.... but hes young. Its part of the territory and he has played some terrific games for us - so we know he is capable, just not consistent (and he has played some awful ones!). If we sign a quality ACM, such as Sneijder (unlikely, but just as an example), I think thats our priority. We'll be less reliant on Anderson and give him time to develop.

Scholesy is gone I'm afraid to say. He just gets caught in possession too often.

We need an ACM to complement Fletcher / Hargreaves (if he ever comes back!), a quality winger. Then we can look at the Berbatov situation. I'm still not convinced about Owen. Sure, he scored a few but his general level of performances have been poor.

I believe Valencia will turn out to be a gem for us. If only we had a fit Louis Saha. Pace, strength, good in the air, relatively two footed....he is EXACTLY what we need (without the injuries).

Peyton Manning

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except the part about Anderson. He is only popular because everyone can see he has potential and he is worth persisting with for the foreseeable future. Hes only 21. His best years are 7-8 years away yet. You can't just throw away a guy who has bags of potential. Sure, he is inconsistent.... but hes young. Its part of the territory and he has played some terrific games for us - so we know he is capable, just not consistent (and he has played some awful ones!). If we sign a quality ACM, such as Sneijder (unlikely, but just as an example), I think thats our priority. We'll be less reliant on Anderson and give him time to develop.

Scholesy is gone I'm afraid to say. He just gets caught in possession too often.

We need an ACM to complement Fletcher / Hargreaves (if he ever comes back!), a quality winger. Then we can look at the Berbatov situation. I'm still not convinced about Owen. Sure, he scored a few but his general level of performances have been poor.

I believe Valencia will turn out to be a gem for us. If only we had a fit Louis Saha. Pace, strength, good in the air, relatively two footed....he is EXACTLY what we need (without the injuries).

Oh I would never suggest getting rid of Anderson. I love him - I coined the Anderson Is God phenomenom He's probably just a victim of his own immediate success in that we've expected more from him in terms of progression. He also suffers a lot from 60 minutes onwards in games, but hopefully increased stamina will come with age.

As for Valencia, I completely agree. He has impressed me a lot this season, and is improving steadily. He's beginning to offer us a lot of what Ronaldo offered us in terms of running at people, getting his name on the scoresheet, getting to the byline etc. just not to the same level as Ronaldo - but we can hardly hold that against him. He's turning out to be a very good acquisition by Fergie.

PHB

I think it's clear we need another CB because both Rio is getting on in years, although hopefully he can stick around for another few years.

The strike force is an interesting one. Would be quite surprised to see Fergie break up the Berba/Rooney strikeforce preference, but we might see the addition of a 3rd striker instead of Owen. If Berbatov needs 3 months out, it'll be interesting to see what happens in January.

Central midfield is obvioulsy a huge problem. Anderson may or may not make it at United, but its clear he's not going to do it in the short-term. For me, my preference would be Gourcouff. I think he's outstanding in the few times I've seen him. He's also young and thus fits into United's re-selling theory. Beyond that, he doesn't want to go back to Italy, so its only one league we've to compete with him for, and Barca are full, and Real wouldn't really be able to fit him. He's French too, so won't dislike England as much.

Then we desperately need to look at left wing. Nani isn't getting any chances anymore, which suggests he's done. If Fergie can get him to his peak, great, but if not, I hope he enjoys his time elsewhere but I think he'll make it eventually at a top club. His performances for Portugal alone show that. Park is a decent squad player. Tosic is just ignored, not hugely sure why. Alledgely he's deeply unsettled but I get the feeling Fergie just doesn't rate him. We need a new left winger.

Oddly enough, Valencia have both of what we're looking for. Villa and Silva would be nice additions, with Chellini the defensive purchase and Gourcouff the central midfield purchases. I think that would be likely to cost about 40+30+20+30 = 120 million. This could be part funded with about 30-40 million Fergie might still have been allowed spend from Ronaldo. Then the sale of Park will get us about 5-7 million, Nani will bring 12+ [I've no doubt], Macheda/Welbeck/Owen will go for 7ish, which will bring us 25ish or so. Still leaves us a good 65 million short Which is why I think we're unlikely to see a striker brought in, also unlikely to see a defender brought in, Fergie will risk it on Ferdinand.

The key areas for me are central midfield and left wing, which we can afford to do something about.

Boggles

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

I'm still not convinced about Owen. Sure, he scored a few but his general level of performances have been poor.

People are forgetting the one main thing Owen brings us, the ability to rest Rooney.

The past few seasons Ferguson has spread Rooney around the league and CL with heavy playing bias towards the CL.

Rooney has started every league game this season and is already only 7 appearances off his 25 the past 2 seasons and his stats reflect this.

Owen really was a brilliant piece of business.

daveyboy_1ie

CivilServant wrote: »

If he he booked Fagan then Evra would of been sent off with a second yellow. So in that respect it was another slice of luck rolling Utd's way again :pac:

He clearly warned Fagan and his captain he would send Fagan off as his hand gestures pointed to the dressing room, not a warning to book him so there is no redress here, its a warning and good refereeing. Its about time a ref did his job and not jump to his book at the slightest inclination.

What do you want? If you had your way players wouyld be booked and sent off every few minutes and thats just bloody silly and would ruin the game as we know it.