Dole merchants

Bugnug · 27-12-2009 12:48pm

Daithinski wrote: »

You must know something everybody else doesn't. Tell us where these 300,000 jobs are hiding.

You get community service for committing a crime.

As far as I am aware, being on the dole for 2+ years is not a criminal offense.

Do you know what that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 1:10pm

Terrontress wrote: »

If I were you, I'd take the minimum wage job rather than exist on handouts. As someone who has worked his entire adult life and who did a series of part time jobs throughout school and college, I can assure you that there is a great dignity and joy in a job that money can't buy.

You name it - petrol station, cafe, McDonalds, pub. I've done the lot and for very little money but with the satisfaction of a job well done!

If you were me you would do anything but if you were me you would also realise that although your working for min wage you are actually compeating with a lot of perspective people.

Additionally what is the crak with doing interview after interview and being told if you dont hear back you did not get the job....

I have actually offered to work on a commission basis but guess what that is classed as being self employed and you then loose a lot more.

I seem to have to defend myself here and no one knows anything about me.

I simply made a comment that you cannot take the waster like the op discusses and apply the rule to everyone.

For example. A married man with 4 kids(Had his family long ago in the good times) would be wasteing his time driving 20 miles to work for min wage of 4 hours.

Its not as simple as you perceive.

nice_guy80 · 27-12-2009 1:27pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have actually offered to work on a commission basis but guess what that is classed as being self employed and you then loose a lot more.

its spelt lose. why do you think that? self employed people pay a lot less tax

Terrontress · 27-12-2009 1:35pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

If you were me you would do anything but if you were me you would also realise that although your working for min wage you are actually compeating with a lot of perspective people.

Additionally what is the crak with doing interview after interview and being told if you dont hear back you did not get the job....

I have actually offered to work on a commission basis but guess what that is classed as being self employed and you then loose a lot more.

I seem to have to defend myself here and no one knows anything about me.

I simply made a comment that you cannot take the waster like the op discusses and apply the rule to everyone.

For example. A married man with 4 kids(Had his family long ago in the good times) would be wasteing his time driving 20 miles to work for min wage of 4 hours.

Its not as simple as you perceive.

I don't have an issue with you. I have an issue with the system which allows you to exist paid for by the toil of others.

Your posts are full of points stating that you don't see it worth your while coming off the dole because you would only get minimum wage or that working as self employed would make you worse off than minimum wage etc.

I think that surviving on the dole is the worst of all. And the dole allowing people to sit and not do a single productive day's work for 18 months yet live in warmth and eat well and drink pints is sickening.

You can't blame the people who do it. It is such an easy thing to do. People convince themselves that a future employer would look more kindly on them sitting on their ar5es for 18 months than doing a cleaning job. They see certain jobs as beneath them but not waiting for a dole cheque to arrive.

The whole system stinks and then recent reforms in the last budget should have gone much, much further.

KC JONES · 27-12-2009 1:49pm

Terrontress wrote: »

not on alcohol to prevent the entire benefit cheque going straight down the pub.

Anyone who would give their dole to a pub would be some idiot

freelancerTax · 27-12-2009 2:10pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

its spelt lose. why do you think that? self employed people pay a lot less tax

What are you talking about - you've obviously never been self employed

Terrontress · 27-12-2009 3:17pm

KC JONES wrote: »

Anyone who would give their dole to a pub would be some idiot

doesn't stop them doing so, in exchange for fifty pints of Guinness.

ei.sdraob · 27-12-2009 3:28pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

How do you distinguish without discriminating????? I am on the dole a year and half I want to work but can only get min wage and bad hours.

let me guess

the min wage job will pay almost same as sitting at home on dole?

you just highlighted a huge issue with the welfare system

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 5:25pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

its spelt lose. why do you think that? self employed people pay a lot less tax

A self employed person is classed differently in the tax system so you cannot claim carers benefit which I am currently on because I am a carer so for me the rule would be you get nothing tax or otherwise.

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't have an issue with you. I have an issue with the system which allows you to exist paid for by the toil of others.

Your posts are full of points stating that you don't see it worth your while coming off the dole because you would only get minimum wage or that working as self employed would make you worse off than minimum wage etc.

I think that surviving on the dole is the worst of all. And the dole allowing people to sit and not do a single productive day's work for 18 months yet live in warmth and eat well and drink pints is sickening.

You can't blame the people who do it. It is such an easy thing to do. People convince themselves that a future employer would look more kindly on them sitting on their ar5es for 18 months than doing a cleaning job. They see certain jobs as beneath them but not waiting for a dole cheque to arrive.

The whole system stinks and then recent reforms in the last budget should have gone much, much further.

I was trying to show that the system is not as transparent as right and wrong.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

let me guess

the min wage job will pay almost same as sitting at home on dole?

you just highlighted a huge issue with the welfare system

Please read the whole thread with all my comments and then ask me this question. I already answered this.

KC JONES · 27-12-2009 5:58pm

Terrontress wrote: »

doesn't stop them doing so, in exchange for fifty pints of Guinness.

Well I'm sure when they are alcoholic being dried out that Guinnes will send reps to the hospital to ask if they are hungry. I know of a guy who drank 35K of redundancy in one pub and when all gone they would not give him a drink when he was short 50 pence, was in punt times.

FlutterinBantam · 27-12-2009 6:07pm

heh heh dead right, they know a tosser and a loser when they see one.

I'd do the same myself.

KC JONES · 27-12-2009 6:10pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

heh heh dead right, they know a tosser and a loser when they see one.

I'd do the same myself.

anyone giving their dole to a publican is a loser too

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 7:10pm

KC JONES wrote: »

anyone giving their dole to a publican is a loser too

Thats what he was saying was it not?

Terrontress · 27-12-2009 7:28pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

A self employed person is classed differently in the tax system so you cannot claim carers benefit which I am currently on because I am a carer so for me the rule would be you get nothing tax or otherwise.

You would get the dignity of having a decent day's work and the knowledge and pride that you have contributed to society.

Does that count for nothing?

deadhead13 · 27-12-2009 7:32pm

Kirby wrote: »

To be frank, nearly everyone who is healthy and unemployed can get work. The problem is, the jobs that are readily available are undesirable and minimum wage.

.

I doubt there are 423,400 "undesirable and minimum wage" jobs out there, given that only around 4.5% of all jobs in the economy are minimum wage. And the fact that unemployment is expected to continue to rise in 2010.

Terrontress · 27-12-2009 7:33pm

KC JONES wrote: »

Well I'm sure when they are alcoholic being dried out that Guinnes will send reps to the hospital to ask if they are hungry. I know of a guy who drank 35K of redundancy in one pub and when all gone they would not give him a drink when he was short 50 pence, was in punt times.

What I was trying to get across that it is very easy to socialise at the pub while existing solely on the current welfare system. I think that the dole should cover enough to get by only. If someone can afford a night at the pub or even a Chinese takeaway while on the dole then they are being paid too much.

The dole should ensure that a nutritious meal can be provided 3 times per day, comfortable clothes and shoes and not much besides!

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 7:47pm

Terrontress wrote: »

You would get the dignity of having a decent day's work and the knowledge and pride that you have contributed to society.

Does that count for nothing?

There is a multitude of thoughts going through my mind about you at the moment. you clearly do not understand what it means to be a carer or are to stubborn to understand why a carer cannot go self employed.

Belive it or not a carer is taken by the goverment as providing more benefit to society than is reconised. Contact the carers association if you do not believe me.There is 18,500 of carers in this country and if they stoped their work for one hour the person they are careing for would have to be brought to a hospital. That simple action would cripple the health service so much that while its only an hour it would take the health service a week to recover from. This is statasical fact.

So please do not feed me bull about providing a service to society.

But I would rather you accept that I am not unemployed by choice I am unemployed because i can only work 15 hours a week. I have met with govt officails and explained the HOLE that carers are caught in. That the govt accepts there contrabution to society but will not support them in there attempts to work.

http://www.carersireland.com/index.php

Link for more information.

Additionally I have been working on a vol basis for the SVP the last while. I have been advised that if I am fit to do this I am fit to work full stop. In otherwords I am either am or are not available for work.I cannot see any employer allowing me leave work when I need to can you.???? Up to 8 times a day??? i have raised this stupidity with my local TD and it is currently in line for a dail question

Now back to the arguement my orig comment to the op was how do you distinguish a person who deserves dole from one who does not. Like wise I am sure when you worked in a factory with 10 lads was it fair that they all got the same wage even though jack the lad stood in the corner most of the day and was a waste of speace

sceptre · 27-12-2009 7:52pm

Rather than have thoughts (singly or in a multitude) going through heads about fellow posters (as explicitly stated), how's about we take a few drops from the "calm down and stop personalising the discussion like the forum charter clearly says" bottle...

/mod

Terrontress · 27-12-2009 8:01pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

There is a multitude of thoughts going through my mind about you at the moment. you clearly do not understand what it means to be a carer or are to stubborn to understand why a carer cannot go self employed.

Belive it or not a carer is taken by the goverment as providing more benefit to society than is reconised. Contact the carers association if you do not believe me.There is 18,500 of carers in this country and if they stoped their work for one hour the person they are careing for would have to be brought to a hospital. That simple action would cripple the health service so much that while its only an hour it would take the health service a week to recover from. This is statasical fact.

So please do not feed me bull about providing a service to society.

But I would rather you accept that I am not unemployed by choice I am unemployed because i can only work 15 hours a week. I have met with govt officails and explained the HOLE that carers are caught in. That the govt accepts there contrabution to society but will not support them in there attempts to work.

http://www.carersireland.com/index.php

Link for more information.

Additionally I have been working on a vol basis for the SVP the last while. I have been advised that if I am fit to do this I am fit to work full stop. In otherwords I am either am or are not available for work.I cannot see any employer allowing me leave work when I need to can you.???? Up to 8 times a day??? i have raised this stupidity with my local TD and it is currently in line for a dail question

Now back to the arguement my orig comment to the op was how do you distinguish a person who deserves dole from one who does not. Like wise I am sure when you worked in a factory with 10 lads was it fair that they all got the same wage even though jack the lad stood in the corner most of the day and was a waste of speace

In your first post on this thread, you have stated that you are on the dole 18 months, not carer's allowance. You also stated that the minimum wage and irregular hours are what is stopping you from working, not caring for someone. I have said that I am not referring to you, rather the system which can allow someone to do exactly what you said you do in your initial posts.

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 8:02pm

sceptre wrote: »

Rather than have thoughts (singly or in a multitude) going through heads about fellow posters (as explicitly stated), how's about we take a few drops from the "calm down and stop personalising the discussion like the forum charter clearly says" bottle...

/mod

My apologies. To you all. Its annoying and I am more annoying and going no where by my words. i am not the person i am being made out to be. I am happy to work but the system which i have to deal with is unforgiving.

My head is done in not working and be branded does not help.

Joey the lips · 27-12-2009 8:07pm

Terrontress wrote: »

In your first post on this thread, you have stated that you are on the dole 18 months, not carer's allowance. You also stated that the minimum wage and irregular hours are what is stopping you from working, not caring for someone. I have said that I am not referring to you, rather the system which can allow someone to do exactly what you said you do in your initial posts.

For the purposes of stats I am classed for the last year as being a social welfare recipient. Which means I am now cleassed in those stats. Any carer will tell you that and I did say that further down. I can show you that if you wish. I simple shorthanded it in the first post rather than going into tails of woe. My leading point was how do you distinguish.

again what I am trying to say to you is even if your right and I am wrong they govt classes all us as being the same as dole recipents so how do you dist the waster the op talks about. Further more its always been my contention that images are decieving and unless that chap the op is discussing is decieving the system he is highly unlikely to be getting much.

If he is decieving the system no amount of legislation will get him without destroying the likes of me and the govt knows that which is why despit advice did not touch the half rate carers allowence which is now classed as a social welfare payment.

KC JONES · 27-12-2009 9:45pm

Terrontress wrote: »

What I was trying to get across that it is very easy to socialise at the pub while existing solely on the current welfare system. I think that the dole should cover enough to get by only. If someone can afford a night at the pub or even a Chinese takeaway while on the dole then they are being paid too much.

The dole should ensure that a nutritious meal can be provided 3 times per day, comfortable clothes and shoes and not much besides!

Agree but what I am saying is I would not give any dole to pub. If one has a limited income why would pay the publican's mortage before their needs. I don 't believe they can do both eat well and drink in pub and so are fools to give money to pub. I would'nt anyway

Rossibaby · 28-12-2009 2:50am

Aye it's those on the dole that are damaging this country, its not those who perpetuated and bought into the inflation of the property market, its not the bankers who lended at huge risk due to their contract bonus' being based on the creation of short term massive profits...no, its the people on the dole, damn spongers. I have a different idea, how about getting the board members of the banks to sweep our streets and pick up litter, and not the people who have absolutely nothing to do with the crises and find themselves without a job through no fault of their own.

legal-eagle · 28-12-2009 7:03am

Rossibaby the great proletariat defender speaks again, why can you not stay on topic for one second!! I'm not talking about people who have lost their job, I'm talking about people who are too lazy to work or contribute anything to society but collect their nice few quid everyweek.

These people exist, accept that please. What do you feel should happen to young healthy men and women who WILL NOT work at all?

Do not drag this off topic and mention bloody bankers again there's plenty of other threads to discuss that lot.

Joey the lips · 28-12-2009 10:22am

legal-eagle wrote: »

Rossibaby the great proletariat defender speaks again, why can you not stay on topic for one second!! I'm not talking about people who have lost their job, I'm talking about people who are too lazy to work or contribute anything to society but collect their nice few quid everyweek.

These people exist, accept that please. What do you feel should happen to young healthy men and women who WILL NOT work at all?

Do not drag this off topic and mention bloody bankers again there's plenty of other threads to discuss that lot.

And once again we are back to my orig question. As I have shown you can be perceived to be a "Sponger" and not be. So what i ask is how do you distinguish

I reckon every single job should contain a performance scale and if you fail to achieve what you have been tasked you are sacked. That would get rid of a lot of workplace wasters as well and I would not be doing 2 peoples jobs.

You see your presented with the same problem. For example if your in sales and its a bad month is it fair your sacked, no!

If you look at the first page of the posts where its suggested I do not want to work look at the amount of "thanks" it proves people do not read a full story and only take what they want.

The dole is paid on a basis that "You must be available to work" if the govt could prove you a sponger and waster they would stop your dole. This has been done in the past.

So in your example you know of one waster. Are you implying that anyone over 12 months is a waster or have you a more fair and scientific method of determining than the goverment.

Flamed Diving · 28-12-2009 10:31am

AARRRGH wrote: »

I know a lot of "artists" and "musicians". I'm using quotes because they are in fact untalented tossers.

They all work part-time (some of them full-time) yet are long term dole scammers.

They are all doing very well financially.

What bothers me the most about them is that it is so obvious they are scamming the dole (many of them recently bought houses) yet somehow they get away with it.

Makes me sick really.

And yet you don't report them...

Flamed Diving · 28-12-2009 10:34am

Joey the lips wrote: »

I never said nor implied that.

Your realising what most are.... You have taken so long to progress in your area of skill that your afraid by becoming a shelf packer over night you will undo all your work....

One of the reasons many stay unemployed.

So, you work as a engineer for 6 years, then get laid off. You get a job "stacking shelves" or whatever for 6-18 months. Now you are no longer a engineer?

I have heard this excuse before, and it sounds made up. People are being snobby. Simple as.

tallus · 28-12-2009 11:28am

legal-eagle

So why not make him peform some public works like clean graffiti or pick up litter etc. Why should a person like this be able to claim our money every week and live in their mammys house and make themselves an expense to the state?

Ever hear of Community Employment

Granted, not everybody is eligible, but it does exist and a lot of people have gotten jobs as a result of being involved in it, myself included.

Fries-With-That · 28-12-2009 11:30am

I've been reading this thread and think that some people posting are getting things confused.

Social welfare payments are not easy to live on.

I don't care what payment you receive you will not find it easy to live on social welfare.

Carers are different, they are not on social welfare by choice.
People on their stamps are not on social welfare by choice.
People on the dole are generally not on the dole by choice.

In any society there will always be a percentage of people that cannot find regular employment regardless of how much an economy booms.

We've had a booming economy for the last 10 years or so, that did not take everyone off the dole.What it did do for people on the dole was it made employment easier to find, if you were interested in finding employment.

I think the OP has made a valid point, but its not a clear cut issue and its not without emotion as can be seen from some of the posts on this thread.

I think we're all concerned about people that are claiming benefits that they may not be entitled to claim.
I personally don't think the payments are excessive.
I do believe that if somone is claiming and the are also working in the black economy, we have a right to be peeved.

I don't know if this has been suggested before, back in the 50's there was a system in place where you had to sign on twice a day once in the morning and once in the evening 6 days a week.

I think that a reintroduction of this system for people on the dole for 12 months or longer would soon remove those from the system that are working and signing.

Finally, have you paid someone with cash, without a proper vat invoice in the last 10 years. If you want to kill the black economy stop paying cash and always ask yourself why is this person so much cheaper that anyone else.

apologies for the rant.

28-12-2009 11:36am

I've often thought that when you sign on, you should be made to do 20 hours a week community service. 4 hrs a day, 5 days a week. Plenty enough time to find a job in the hours you're not doing your cs. Whether that's doing some work in a park, helping out at a nursing home, hell, even helping build roads. At the moment what we have a lot of potential energy that is doing nothing. We should be harnessing this energy for the good of our country, and at the end of the day, ourselves.

Dole merchants

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