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Dole merchants
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freelancerTax wrote: »What are you talking about - you've obviously never been self employed
i have actually.
used to be paid through a limited company in my old job. it saved me so much tax and you could claim so much stuff back in expenses and other entitlements
now i'm a PAYE worker. get screwed for every cent0 -
ahhah you have to be kidding -
it saves you nothing - you can only claim for valid businness expenses , i.e stuff you use to actually preform work related to your employment and at that you can only claim a percent of the total of capital expenses (i.e bigger purchases) - as an indiviaual it saves you NOTHING.
you pay the same tax as everyone else if you are self employed. there is NOT lower tax for self employed people.0 -
I've often thought that when you sign on, you should be made to do 20 hours a week community service. 4 hrs a day, 5 days a week. Plenty enough time to find a job in the hours you're not doing your cs. Whether that's doing some work in a park, helping out at a nursing home, hell, even helping build roads. At the moment what we have a lot of potential energy that is doing nothing. We should be harnessing this energy for the good of our country, and at the end of the day, ourselves.
Not a bad idea at all.let me guess
the min wage job will pay almost same as sitting at home on dole?
you just highlighted a huge issue with the welfare system
I can easily understand why many people don't take certain minimum wage jobs when you look at the value of working purely in money terms.
40 hours at minimum wage= 40*8.65= 346
welfare= 196
difference= 150 euro for 40 hours= 3.75 an hour effectively
I have no opinion or solution but it's pretty easy to see why many would prefer to stay on the dole than get a minimum wage job. If the opportunity cost of being at work is greater than the benefit of making the extra 3.75 a lot of people will not take a job unless forced somehow.0 -
Flamed Diving wrote: »So, you work as a engineer for 6 years, then get laid off. You get a job "stacking shelves" or whatever for 6-18 months. Now you are no longer a engineer?
I have heard this excuse before, and it sounds made up. People are being snobby. Simple as.
Rubbish and anyone in the position will tell you. But seen as though you picked engineer I will explain it in those terms.
You have recently qualified as an engineer have worked 5 years in engineering and due to circumstances no work you spend the next 5 years stacking shelves.
Its now 10 years since you qualified. All the legislation has prob changed and its 5 years since you worked. You do not become so much more employable.
Now this is not just my thought this is the thinking behind many fas courses. They will first attempt to upskill you in your area before introducing new skill...0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »Rubbish and anyone in the position will tell you. But seen as though you picked engineer I will explain it in those terms.
You have recently qualified as an engineer have worked 5 years in engineering and due to circumstances no work you spend the next 5 years stacking shelves.
Its now 10 years since you qualified. All the legislation has prob changed and its 5 years since you worked. You do not become so much more employable.
Now this is not just my thought this is the thinking behind many fas courses. They will first attempt to upskill you in your area before introducing new skill...
When you are done pitchforking that strawman, you will find me over here, laughing at you.
Cheers.0 -
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Flamed Diving wrote: »When you are done pitchforking that strawman, you will find me over here, laughing at you.
Cheers.
You really need my to spoon feed you on this one. Obv in engineering. its 5 years since you worked in eng 10 years since qualified in engineering.
But take a bigger number say you qualify at 22 cannot get a job(Not uncommon) spend 8 years running around all sorts of jobs. Your now 30 with no experience in engineering other than your qualification
Now having come out of collage at 22 if you work for nothing you will get work but who does that?????
So tell us, what do you do???0 -
I've often thought that when you sign on, you should be made to do 20 hours a week community service. 4 hrs a day, 5 days a week. Plenty enough time to find a job in the hours you're not doing your cs. Whether that's doing some work in a park, helping out at a nursing home, hell, even helping build roads. At the moment what we have a lot of potential energy that is doing nothing. We should be harnessing this energy for the good of our country, and at the end of the day, ourselves.
Dont agree over 5 days.. if you live in the sticks you will have travel time to the job. Also your assuming that someone unemployed has all the necessary tools like internet etc at home. If the have to travel to fas etc they will not make it working over 5 days.
20 hours over 3 days maybe but not over 50 -
Joey the lips wrote: »You really need my to spoon feed you on this one. Obv in engineering. its 5 years since you worked in eng 10 years since qualified in engineering.
But take a bigger number say you qualify at 22 cannot get a job(Not uncommon) spend 8 years running around all sorts of jobs. Your now 30 with no experience in engineering other than your qualification
Now having come out of collage at 22 if you work for nothing you will get work but who does that?????
So tell us, what do you do???
The straw is strong, in this one.0 -
Flamed Diving wrote: »The straw is strong, in this one.
I can see i am wasteing my time with you. Thank you for calling. Next please!0 -
Anyway, back to my original true point. After years working as an engineer, you get laid off. Does working a unskilled job for --->six months<--- mean that you are now unemployable as an engineer?
Apparently so, yet sitting on your hole doing nothing doesn't have this magical effect.
Amusing.0 -
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Flamed Diving wrote: »Anyway, back to my original true point. After years working as an engineer, you get laid off. Does working a unskilled job for --->six months<--- mean that you are now unemployable as an engineer?
Apparently so, yet sitting on your hole doing nothing doesn't have this magical effect.
Amusing.
I never said six months. where are you getting these figures. You are not making sense and trying to belittle the discussion. Please read again and then reply as you are now drifting off and the discussion is becoming boreing.0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »I never said six months. where are you getting these figures. You are not making sense and trying to belittle the discussion. Please read again and then reply as you are now drifting off and the discussion is becoming boreing.
I'm getting six months, because I originally said 6-18 months. Remember that post you replied to? If you are going to attack the post, don't bother stretching beyond this time range, because you are not arguing against my point, you are simply arguing against yourself. This is called strawmanning outside of boards.ie, but I cannot say it is here. Remember:
6-18 months = short term
5 years = long term
Not the same.0 -
I have interviewed people before but never been involved in the shortlisting of applicants by looking at cvs. I would have to say though, I'd find someone who couldn't get into their chosen line of work who did a low paid job while still applying for others preferable to someone who just signed on.
And I don't see how an engineer is more employable by refusing to stack shelves in favour of signing on.0 -
wow,
how can you think staying on the dole is better than any job and before you kick off im not talking about careers, lets use the engineer example..
in that situation i would take any job in a heart beat - working in a min wage job will not stop me still pursuing a job in that my chosen field, and will also give me money to tide me over, i certainly would not be locked into the min wage job.
do you really think that when applying for a job you really want the interviewer is going to say "oh i see you didnt lower your standards and instead decided to sponge off the state, the job is yours"
your logic does not add up0 -
Flamed Diving wrote: »I'm getting six months, because I originally said 6-18 months. Remember that post you replied to? If you are going to attack the post, don't bother stretching beyond this time range, because you are not arguing against my point, you are simply arguing against yourself. This is called strawmanning outside of boards.ie, but I cannot say it is here. Remember:
6-18 months = short term
5 years = long term
Not the same.
So you admit your talking rubbish. How can you accept a person will take a job and then leave after 6 months. This in my books makes them worse.
I am not argueing anything. I am simply saying that just because someone is out of work do not judge by what your perceive but by reality. That most likely there is other reasons.
After all I doubt many people want to be unemployed.
Fyi. Those that argue agaist themselves are not logical but irrational0 -
legal-eagle wrote: »Rossibaby the great proletariat defender speaks again, why can you not stay on topic for one second!! I'm not talking about people who have lost their job, I'm talking about people who are too lazy to work or contribute anything to society but collect their nice few quid everyweek.
These people exist, accept that please. What do you feel should happen to young healthy men and women who WILL NOT work at all?
Do not drag this off topic and mention bloody bankers again there's plenty of other threads to discuss that lot.
If people genuinely don't want to work and contribute to society, and I believe this to be a vast minority of those who are on the dole, then yeah I would see no problem with them getting involved in state projects. But the thing is, if you worked for the state doign whatever for your dole, thats called A JOB, so therefore you're showing they are willing to work. There are mechanisms in place to ensure those who recieve the dole are actively seeking work, is this not enough for you?0 -
There are mechanisms in place to ensure those who recieve the dole are actively seeking work, is this not enough for you?
Like what?
If this is true how can people be unemployed years, and openly say I will never work ?
As I said many times before, make them all attend a job centre from 9 to 5, Monday to Friday and they won't be long getting a job.
As for those who want to work, but because or disabilities, etc they are discriminated and can't find work, train them and give them a job in some government department, lead by example.0 -
Like what?
If this is true how can people be unemployed years, and openly say I will never work ?
As I said many times before, make them all attend a job centre from 9 to 5, Monday to Friday and they won't be long getting a job.
As for those who want to work, but because or disabilities, etc they are discriminated and can't find work, train them and give them a job in some government department, lead by example.
Bit I highlighted:
When I was on the dole I was required to present evidence that I was applying for jobs, I believe this has to be done at regular enough intervals or your dole is cut.
As for the sentence highlighted, I was under the impression that if someone refuses to work openly then their payments from the department will cease.0 -
Terrontress wrote: »I have interviewed people before but never been involved in the shortlisting of applicants by looking at cvs. I would have to say though, I'd find someone who couldn't get into their chosen line of work who did a low paid job while still applying for others preferable to someone who just signed on.
And I don't see how an engineer is more employable by refusing to stack shelves in favour of signing on.
With due respects your missing the point as well your not the norm. Its a fact that someone out of there area after a while will find it harder to get back in. Seen as though we are on me let me explain.
I have studied business in collage specialising in buying. However all of my jobs have been in sales( Because I know how buyers think maybe) I recently done an interview for a materials scheduler in a manufacturing company(Something I can do in my sleep). The MD asked why I did not go for the sales job as this is where my experience is and not my qualification.
Any college student will tell you that having left college the hardest thing to do is open the door in your choosen area. Once it is open you are fine but its the hardest thing to do, If a college student with a financial accounting degree spends 5 years out of college stacking shelves what the likelyhood a 27 year old will get a financial accounting job
I would like to point out the op can be accused of trolling by generalising and starting a row, Everyone unemployed over a period of time is not a waster. As my case and situation have proved. There is always exceptional circumstances.
As to your real point I too have interviewed and short listed and sacked and hired and the one question i always ask is
Why did you leave your last job.....
Most people leave there jobs because they are not paid enough or are paid more elsewhere. This makes them the most unreliable person to hire. Why? because as an employer I would be wasteing my time. a 22 year old will say this to you a 32 year old will know this and be more cunning but many people leave because of poor career progression. Its a fact in most jobs career progression is just a holy grail
However if I said to someone why were you 6 months out of work...and they said. I am good at sales I like sales and my choosen area is construction. I wanted to make sure the door was not closed and took the first chance to get back in. I have spent a lot of time serching for the role. I even considered emeergrating because I could not get a sales job
I would hire the second person in an instant and so would any other employer!
I do not agree with the fas structures in this country. You have to be so long out of work before you get a course. I think the govt should constantly strive to upskill workers even those working and should provide as much incentive as possible to do this. For example. pay by week fas courses for those working. Module courses to make the periods shorter and easier to build. More on line courses. I have done 2 fetac courses in careing that I could have done on line instead of tieing up classrooms and resources.0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »How can you accept a person will take a job and then leave after 6 months. This in my books makes them worse.
Sorry, but you are doing it again (the 'S' word), though I will leave you off, since I didn't explicitly state it. However, I would appreciate that you don't jump to conclusions from now on. Would our engineer friend expect to be unemployed for 6-18 months, or 5 years? I would pluck for the former, but that's just the optimist in me. So if I expected to be out of my trained profession for several months, I would find something to fill the void, even if it was crummy work. It's better than lazing around, sponging and watching TV all day, isn't it?0 -
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Flamed Diving wrote: »Sorry, but you are doing it again (the 'S' word), though I will leave you off, since I didn't explicitly state it. However, I would appreciate that you don't jump to conclusions from now on. Would our engineer friend expect to be unemployed for 6-18 months, or 5 years? I would pluck for the former, but that's just the optimist in me. So if I expected to be out of my trained profession for several months, I would find something to fill the void, even if it was crummy work. It's better than lazing around, sponging and watching TV all day, isn't it?
See you still talk the talk. I alrady told you of charity workI am doing. I am currently working with a quantity survayor who is 13 months out of work. He worked for tesco last christmas 08 when he finished from site work in october. Now I dont know about you but if he continued to be still working for tesco he is now 13 months out of works.
Your figures are optimistic and baseless where as I prefere to look at everything on a case by case bases.
Coincidently my approach is also CORI's suggested approach to the govt and the govts current approach.
Tell me if someone is 13 months in tesco and having no luck finding work would you not feel the most senseable thing to do instead of loosing all that valuable experience would have been to up skill his knowledge. However the govt will not train this person unless they are out of work.
I see you with no arguement and will ignore you from this point unless you start resoning and making sense. The choice is yours!0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »See you still talk the talk. I alrady told you of charity workI am doing. I am currently working with a quantity survayor who is 13 months out of work. He worked for tesco last christmas 08 when he finished from site work in october. Now I dont know about you but if he continued to be still working for tesco he is now 13 months out of works.
Your figures are optimistic and baseless where as I prefere to look at everything on a case by case bases.
Coincidently my approach is also CORI's suggested approach to the govt and the govts current approach.
Tell me if someone is 13 months in tesco and having no luck finding work would you not feel the most senseable thing to do instead of loosing all that valuable experience would have been to up skill his knowledge. However the govt will not train this person unless they are out of work.
I see you with no arguement and will ignore you from this point unless you start resoning and making sense. The choice is yours!
No, you only wish to choose cases which suit your cause. I never made a single mention of your case, yet you act as if this is a reality. This must be the 4th consecutive s****man, which I have never witnessed before. I'm in awe. Now you are talking about the Govt retraining them, which was notably absent from the very post I replied to:Your realising what most are.... You have taken so long to progress in your area of skill that your afraid by becoming a shelf packer over night you will undo all your work....
To which I replied:So, you work as a engineer for 6 years, then get laid off. You get a job "stacking shelves" or whatever for 6-18 months. Now you are no longer a engineer?
and yet here we are, many posts later and you have not directly answered my post. Just s****man after s****man and a final shifting of the goalposts with the Govt training point.
If you build up skills over many years, they don't just vanish stacking a few shelves for a matter of months. Just to let ya know, for every 13-month unemployed construction worker you provide, I will raise you another person I know who found work after a few months of unemployment. I am not interested in anecdotes. Skills don't disappear in a few months. People are being snobby. Better to be an unemployed engineer than a shelf-stacker with a job, eh?0 -
Bit I highlighted:
When I was on the dole I was required to present evidence that I was applying for jobs, I believe this has to be done at regular enough intervals or your dole is cut.
As for the sentence highlighted, I was under the impression that if someone refuses to work openly then their payments from the department will cease.
How easy is to show evidence that you are looking for a job?
I know people that simply say, "I looked in FAS and in news papers" and that is it, evidence.
There's another one, that has a few letters saying that's but no thanks from companies that don't even exist he typed them himself.
ETc, Etc.
Job clubs would keep them busy doing what they should be doing, looking for a job.0 -
Fries-With-That wrote: »I've been reading this thread and think that some people posting are getting things confused.
Social welfare payments are not easy to live on.
I don't care what payment you receive you will not find it easy to live on social welfare.
Carers are different, they are not on social welfare by choice.
People on their stamps are not on social welfare by choice.
People on the dole are generally not on the dole by choice.
In any society there will always be a percentage of people that cannot find regular employment regardless of how much an economy booms.
We've had a booming economy for the last 10 years or so, that did not take everyone off the dole.What it did do for people on the dole was it made employment easier to find, if you were interested in finding employment.
I think the OP has made a valid point, but its not a clear cut issue and its not without emotion as can be seen from some of the posts on this thread.
I think we're all concerned about people that are claiming benefits that they may not be entitled to claim.
I personally don't think the payments are excessive.
I do believe that if somone is claiming and the are also working in the black economy, we have a right to be peeved.
I don't know if this has been suggested before, back in the 50's there was a system in place where you had to sign on twice a day once in the morning and once in the evening 6 days a week.
I think that a reintroduction of this system for people on the dole for 12 months or longer would soon remove those from the system that are working and signing.
Finally, have you paid someone with cash, without a proper vat invoice in the last 10 years. If you want to kill the black economy stop paying cash and always ask yourself why is this person so much cheaper that anyone else.
apologies for the rant.
Fries how are you doing.
You clearly don't know the long term people we talking about.
It is quiet easy and comfortable to leave on benefits when most of the so called low income people have council housing, free money for furniture, cookers, etc.
If it wasn't explain to me how do they manage to have cars, go on holidays, buy flat screen TV's etc.?
I truly believe that if you are a carer, have disabilities or an illness that prevents you from working, that your benefit should be higher, I mean why should someone who has no choice live bellow the min wages.
But those that simple can't be bother getting a job, should be made to find work or spend all day looking for work.
And those that want work but are discriminated because of disabilities etc the government should do all in its power to help them find work.0 -
As someone who has worked all my life and has been out of work for over a year now, I find a number of these post insulting. Most people I know who are unemployed are in the same boat as myself... We have applied for every job going in the field that we are trained for only to find 100 people have applied. If we apply for a minimum wage job, again there are hundreds applying for the same job. I have done that one. To keep my mind active I do evening unpaid committee work which I have always done. Many of us now don't even get the courtesy of a reply. If welfare is cut, to incentivise people to work that's fine, provided there are jobs to work in. Brian Lehihan has cut the welfare for under 24 year olds to encourage them to train or go into education, but where are the places for these people to train? There is a big gap between numbers and places. It seems to me this was just a device to save money.. solely.
People really need to understand the realities before coming out parrot fashion with handy sound bite solutions. In full employment years, fine cut the welfare etc., but right now it is a safety net for thousands, who like myelf exhausted their savings to try and avoid welfare.0 -
And Enstein what about people like me in their 50's who paid in to the system all their working lives and are discriminated against by employers, being ageist for the few jobs that may be there? So you would cut their dole payments also? For starters the word "Dole" is not a nice word for payments that I legitimately am entitled to as a long time contributor. There are no spongers as we all pay into the system. Hopefully you will never have to apply for JSA or JSB in the future.legal-eagle wrote: »How do you determine? Like I already said, it's simple...If make them do 20 hours a week and if they don't do it cut their dole.
Its such a simple way of weeding out the spongers!0
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