Question about Animal Welfare section

Top Dog

I hope this won't get me banned for a week, but I didn't know how else to try seek a little clarification other than to ask. Maybe I should have posted this in feedback? If so, apologies and please move if possible.

I just didn't know how to go about seeking clarification. If I pm'd a mod it would appear to be against the rules. Posting this thread could also be against the rules. Its kinda a rock and a hard place thing but I'd just like to understand a bit better so I don't go treading on any toes or upsetting anyone.

In the announcement/sticky at the top of the forum is the following;

2.The continuing questioning of moderator decisions whether its on thread or via private messages.

Also from now on anyone who questions why we did or did not approve a post or thread will be banned for the period of one week.

There will be no discussion regarding this issue and continued questioning of any mods decision will result in a permanent ban from the Animals and Pets forum.
So let me clarify this--if you put a post or thread up and we dont approve it,please do not pm us to ask why or you will be banned for a period of one week.Continued questioning of approval of threads/posts will result in a permanent ban.Moderators decisions are final.

My questions are as follows;

In point 2, it says the continued questioning - does this mean that we are allowed to ask about a decision but not harass a moderator? Or does it mean that we can no-longer ask anything or seek clarification about a decision when we don't understand it?

The bit I've highlighted in blue - does this mean that we just have to accept everything the moderators do and cannot question it at all, even if we feel (and could possibly be proven correct) that the moderator did not act accordingly? Or is this now a situation where we have to take things directly to feedback if we want to question a decision?

I don't want to be ruffling feathers by asking this, I'm just acknowledging that moderators are humans too - and as humans we sometimes make mistakes. Not saying anyone has made a mistake or questioning any decision, just that its human nature.

Final question - have I now gone against the bit in red and I'm gonna get banned for a week?

Top Dog

Since I may be running the risk of getting banned anyway I'm gonna try clarify my point if I can, in the hope that whatever moderator reads, they might understand that I'm not spoiling for a fight, not trying to cause friction or hassle, just looking for a little help if possible.

I try to stick to the rules for Boards.ie as best I can, and the relevant charters in each sub-section. Being the admin of a site, and a moderator on previous sites, I can appreciate the effort and thought that goes into the construction of the terms and rules by which that particular site is governed. However, the rules as posted in the Animal Welfare section could do with some clarification (in my opinion anyway).

If, for example, a decision is made by a moderator over a thread/post I've made, and I'm not allowed to ask why, then how can I know what I've done wrong? And if I'm not allowed to get the answer to what I've done wrong, then I cannot learn, and I cannot avoid making the same mistake again as I've not been told where I went wrong in the first place (assuming its not blatantly obvious of course). If this happens more than twice to a person then they're bound to get confused/frustrated/annoyed and it might force their hand to ask the question of the moderator to understand the situation - and thus they risk a ban simply because they want to understand something better.

Or if I am allowed to ask why a decision has been made - who do I ask? A random moderator (as there's 5 to choose from in the Animal & Pet Issues section), feedback desk, a specific moderator?

The way the rules are posted sounds very similar to the penalty points system for driving licences - if you question or challenge a decision, even with reasonable grounds, then you run the risk of an even more severe penalty. Hardly a just way to treat adults if you get what I mean?

I'm just trying to understand what course of appeal there is for posters if they do not agree with the decision made by a moderator of the section? Or is it a case of like it, or lump it?

Hellrazer

Top Dog wrote: »

I hope this won't get me banned for a week, but I didn't know how else to try seek a little clarification other than to ask.

2.The continuing questioning of moderator decisions whether its on thread or via private messages.

Ok the way it works here is that the mods are here to keep things "sane" for want of a better word.Thre have been times in the last few weeks where we have removed a thread on an admins advice and the original poster has basically decided to question the decision of the mods.After that it usually escalates to private messages.I personally have spent full days back and forth pmìng users about my decision to delete/remove posts and most of these pm`s have been questioning the decision.

Also from now on anyone who questions why we did or did not approve a post or thread will be banned for the period of one week.

Again the decision of the moderators to apporve a post is at our discretion based on past experiences with libel/threads descending into chaos etc.

There will be no discussion regarding this issue and continued questioning of any mods decision will result in a permanent ban from the Animals and Pets forum.
So let me clarify this--if you put a post or thread up and we dont approve it,please do not pm us to ask why or you will be banned for a period of one week.Continued questioning of approval of threads/posts will result in a permanent ban.Moderators decisions are final.

My questions are as follows;

In point 2, it says the continued questioning - does this mean that we are allowed to ask about a decision but not harass a moderator? Or does it mean that we can no-longer ask anything or seek clarification about a decision when we don't understand it?

If you feel that we`ve unfairly not approved a thread or post feel free to pm a mod about it.However if we pm you back and explain why we didnt approve the post or thread then please just accept that--there are reasons and issues in the background that ordinary users dont see and can explain why a thread was not approved.

The bit I've highlighted in blue - does this mean that we just have to accept everything the moderators do and cannot question it at all,

Basically yes you do.If we make a decision based on information that the ordinary user doesnt know about then thats it the decision is final.

even if we feel (and could possibly be proven correct) that the moderator did not act accordingly? Or is this now a situation where we have to take things directly to feedback if we want to question a decision?

Whether your post is correct or not is not the issue here.Boards does not operate on a "Freedom of speech" basis--The main issue facing us is that 1.Threads turning into chaos.2.Libel issues with regards to rescues bitching about each other.
Feedback is there to take things to the next level so to speak.Its your decision if you want to take it to feedback.

Final question - have I now gone against the bit in red and I'm gonna get banned for a week?

Nope--but you could have pm`d one of us to ask these questions.

Hellrazer

Top Dog wrote: »

Since I may be running the risk of getting banned anyway I'm gonna try clarify my point if I can, in the hope that whatever moderator reads, they might understand that I'm not spoiling for a fight, not trying to cause friction or hassle, just looking for a little help if possible.

I think Ive explained it in my first post .

I try to stick to the rules for Boards.ie as best I can, and the relevant charters in each sub-section. Being the admin of a site, and a moderator on previous sites, I can appreciate the effort and thought that goes into the construction of the terms and rules by which that particular site is governed. However, the rules as posted in the Animal Welfare section could do with some clarification (in my opinion anyway).

Ok then tell us what need clarification.We do take it on board and will look at it if you point it out to us.

If, for example, a decision is made by a moderator over a thread/post I've made, and I'm not allowed to ask why, then how can I know what I've done wrong?

If you read the rules before posting you`d know what you done wrong.In some fora here on boards the excuse of not reading the rules gets you a ban if you post something thats not allowed.

And if I'm not allowed to get the answer to what I've done wrong, then I cannot learn, and I cannot avoid making the same mistake again as I've not been told where I went wrong in the first place (assuming its not blatantly obvious of course). If this happens more than twice to a person then they're bound to get confused/frustrated/annoyed and it might force their hand to ask the question of the moderator to understand the situation - and thus they risk a ban simply because they want to understand something better.

I think that this might happen to a minority of people but a pm to one of the mods could clear it up.

Or if I am allowed to ask why a decision has been made - who do I ask? A random moderator (as there's 5 to choose from in the Animal & Pet Issues section), feedback desk, a specific moderator?

Ok the way it works is : pm the moderator>>pm any moderator>>>pm the cmod of the section in question>>>then lastly helpdesk.

The way the rules are posted sounds very similar to the penalty points system for driving licences - if you question or challenge a decision, even with reasonable grounds, then you run the risk of an even more severe penalty. Hardly a just way to treat adults if you get what I mean?

If these people could start acting like adults then we wouldnt be going down this route.The reasons the pre-moderating thing was brought in was because there is a handful of people (maybe 7/8) who and if Im being totally honest are involved in rescue.These people continually break the rules,continually write posts that are potentially libelous and boards.ie have even received threats of legal action because of some of these posts.The admins have given us the go ahead to name and shame these people (and link to the posts in question) who have in my opinion changed the forum for everyone but Im not going down that road at the minute.

We didnt want to have to pre-moderate all posts (it makes more work for us) but we had to do something to stop these few users.The admins actually wanted to get rid of the animals and pets forum altogether whic I wouldnt have liked to see happen since it was my idea for it way back and Ive moderated here since it was formed.

I'm just trying to understand what course of appeal there is for posters if they do not agree with the decision made by a moderator of the section? Or is it a case of like it, or lump it?

Its not a case of "like it or lump it"
This is the appeal process: pm the moderator>>pm any moderator>>>pm the cmod of the section in question>>>then lastly helpdesk.

Hope this helps.

star-pants

Ok - I'm just replying as a mod of this section - so you don't think it's just Hellrazer or just one of us calling all the shots.

We didn't come to the decision lightly to make the Welfare section premoderated, to be honest it was almost the last choice, the last one was (as said) to get rid of it. Which I personally didn't want because there can be some awful good information posted and things learnt about in here.

I too have spent more time than I'd like pm'ing back and forth, when you explain why you do something, you get the 'free speech' thrown at you. AND if people read the rules (of boards.ie) they'd see this isn't a free speech forum - we're subject to rules just like everyone else. We're subject to libel cases if certain things are said. There have been many potential libel cases regarding what some people have said in this forum, even when we've outlined in the rules not to say such things. We *are* only human, and we can't read every single post or watch it 24/7, even though we try, and when something bad/libel gets said and we miss it, it's our backsides in hot water, because the Community Managers are getting the phonecalls threatening legal action.

We (the mods) have been accused of many things, I know I've received abusive pms from posters and so forth. Apart from the fact we shouldn't have to put up with that - we're doing all of this to protect you guys AND ourselves.
As Hellrazer said - most of these people breaking the rules are rescues - and they're not doing themselves any favours by putting themselves into libellous situations, it will come back on them as much as us.

We also premoderate because some people can't keep their tempers, whilst I know it's a passionate subject, some people just let their mouths run off them and then if no one reports the post, you have an argument ensuing that we have to try and pick through and reprimand the correct people. It doesn't help if half the threads descend into chaos and tit for tat.

Regarding the rule clarification - Hellrazers explained most of it already - but I will say that I did think some people might want to know why their post wasn't approved or something, if they're new and don't fully know the forum yet.
Obviously if someone pm's and says they don't understand what's going on, we will explain it to them and not just ban. If someone pm's me going 'wtf'/abusive - I will ban them (that's already happened).

But it is up to each poster on boards to read the boards.ie rules and the subsequent forum rules for each of the forums before posting. AND to pay heed to any moderator warnings in thread.
As you've questioned - perhaps we will be able to make it clearer here and perhaps amend the new announcement so that it's more understandable. But in general we don't want 20pms a day going 'why didn't you approve my post?' when it's fairly obvious.

Top Dog

Will reply to this properly later when I have the chance. Just wanted to say thank you to you both for replying and elaborating on the points I'd raised (and thanks for not banning me ).

Hellrazer - will do on trying to suggest ammendments to help clarify things.

Thanks folks.

star-pants

Just like to point out - we don't ban people for being curious or politely requesting clarification on things. But sometimes when we try the softly softly approach we get taken for a ride, which has happened. So we sometimes have to play the tough guy too.

I appreciate you asking and understand your need for clarification