Mains water problems, oil boiler problems

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Over the last few days I've seen loads of the above problems on boards, not only boards but in real world to.

Both problems in majority of cases have been created due to recent frost.

Just thought I'd write up some details as to why these problems are being created.

Frost is not the be all and end all of the problem, heating systems can work in much lower outside temperatures than Ireland is experiencing today same goes for water mains.

The main problem is, Irish plumbing and heating systems are not designed to deal with recent outside temperatures. I've moved on to geothermal heating in recent times, during my plumbing apprenticeship not to long ago, when being thought how to design traditional heating and plumbing systems a lowest outside temperature of around -2 is only considered.

The lowest temp of around -2 can also spread across oil boiler manufactures and oil boiler service guides. Heating controls along with frost prevention control. Same goes to water mains, the minimum depth for a water main to be below ground is more than likely based on this -2 figure.

To me a heating system only designed to cope with lowest of -2 is why you find their is not enough heat coming from rads to heat house, its why you find yourself turning up stat, same for burner problems, oil can be more difficult to ignite at colder temp. Also oil burner is not set up to deal with an oil supply being stored in temperatures below -2. Same goes for water main, if mains is lower in the ground, the frost risk decreases.

Only way around this is to have your system set up in a way to take in a lower outside temp than -2. This might mean having larger rads, boiler running at different temp also re-commissioned to be able to run at temperatures below -2. Heating system filled with a frost inhibitor along with other heating modifications. Water mains would have to be considered also, either lowering further below ground or providing better insulation.

A heating system designed to run at lower temp than -2 will cost more in both installation and running. In the long run the extra cost could be worth it, as you will have a system designed to cope when you need it the most. The cost difference between a system designed to cope at -2 and one that can cope at -4 is not huge. Its definitely worth bringing up should you be building a new house or up dating an existing system.

The recent cold times could be a once off, might never happen again. Then again its possible our winter is getting colder.

Might be hard to take in, but if you look at recent posts, very little gas boiler problems over the last few days compared to oil, their is a reason, hopefully a poster by the name of Gary can describe why gas boilers have no problem working during recent frost.

It would have to get a lot lot colder before Natural gas or LPG are effected as a fuel source, and as far as maintaining the heating system temperature i think it more luck than judgment as most manufactures would be working of -1c for a minimum out door temperature in the UK & Eire(from what i recall), if the boiler is over sized you will have no problems and if it's undersized then this weather will show that problem, it also helps that most gas boilers are fitted inside and they have decent inbuilt frost protection. In respect of system design for -4c you may find it would include oversizing a heating system for normal conditions which could effect a BER rating if the boiler is outside of their tolerances, Gary.

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gary71 wrote: »

It would have to get a lot lot colder before Natural gas or LPG are effected as a fuel source, and as far as maintaining the heating system temperature i think it more luck than judgment as most manufactures would be working of -1c for a minimum out door temperature in the UK & Eire(from what i recall), if the boiler is over sized you will have no problems and if it's undersized then this weather will show that problem, it also helps that most gas boilers are fitted inside and they have decent inbuilt frost protection. In respect of system design for -4c you may find it would include oversizing a heating system for normal conditions which could effect a BER rating if the boiler is outside of their tolerances, Gary.

Nice one, cheers.

Over the last few years we've had cold bringing temp well below -1. Might be mad to suggest but I believe heating system figures could do with an over haul. On the BER side of things, geothermal systems are installed in areas well below 35 they can regulate to match outside temperature from normal to extreme cold, all being efficient.

With Gas, correct me if I am wrong, but some boilers can regulate themselves to suit different kwh's of output depending on demand.

With a bit of effort and thought a heating system can be installed to cope with a figure of -4 while being energy efficient to today's BER recommendations.

If I was building a house tomorrow, my own house no way would I calculate heating to work from lowest of -2. I'd drop it a few more. I always bring this up with customers, most cases it works out, most time boiler is actually over sized anyway so then bump up rad sizes a little, those systems tend to run of lower temp due to bigger rads. No real noticeable difference in fuel usage.

The reason i was given back in the day for the -1c was on average you wouldn't have more than five days in the year that dropped to that temperature, so it wouldn't be cost effective to oversize the boiler and system but in saying that i over sized my oil boiler and i am nice and toasty thank you very much. Setting a gas boiler to a given heat load is very easy but would have to be looked at if we turned in to Arctic Ireland, things have changed with modern gas boilers a lot of boilers can have a outdoor sensor wired straight in to them, so the boiler can change the heat output of the boiler to achieve a given internal temperature, for the BER my understanding of it is the house design and material go in to a calculation that decides the heat requirement for the house in KW, so if they are using the -1c in the calculation and you size the boiler/rads with extra KW to achieve the -4c then you could be outside of the BERs maximum boiler/rads size allowed effecting the BER rating, Gary.

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True, so from your experience -1 is based on only being -1 at max of 5 days. So far were up to almost two weeks at temp well below -1 during night, more to follow so you can see where I'm coming from.

If you can prove you have a system thats able to adjust to outside temp along with working efficiently BER assessors will carry on ticking the right boxes. BER is a relatively new concept and I've seen a case where BER assessor was left dumb founded by a system. It had gas boiler combined with airothermal. From my experience with BER assessors their knowledge of heating system is fairly low, to me BER seems more to do with building structure, insulation and ventilation.

Reason I bring all this up is to find answers myself.

In the UK it would be installers like you who would be doing the BER calculation, it would be part of the Building reg partL(which i have as a qualification), you would have to do the calculation to prove the heating requirement for the property and you have to be spot on with your boiler size or risk a big fine, the paper work would be sent to the powers that be and some of your installations would be checked to make sure you are fitting the right size boiler, -1c is used in this calculation so to use -4c could leave you liable for a fine, if you follow the regs here then you could be putting yourself in the position where your system design could have a lower rating for the installation than if you met the BER requirements for the installation, i think these rating will become more important in the future and you wouldn't want to be in the position where people can bitch about your installations, i agree with what you want to set up but i would check your position with the fellas who post about BER http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1162 at the end of the day if the house has a lower rating because the system is to funky for the BERman thats not a good thing for you, it comes down to the regs and if there against you then that can be a pain, you will probably find your installations are fine but i would want to be sure, Gary.

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Cheers, must look into that. Just seem to find it difficult to match boiler output with actual required Kw's. I'm sure you see it a lot, when you have your end requirement figure its hard to find a boiler to match it correctly, most cases you have no option to install a boiler with some Kw's above house requirements.

What do you do with the extra Kw's. A while back I used to connect a u gauge to gas assembly an set gas in a way to reduce boilers set basic output to match required Kw. Then I moved onto finding boilers which pretty much regulated the Kw's themselves.

With all the latest weather just looking into future, see what can be done with those extra Kw's. Must put it to some BER heads, say you have no choice but to install an over rated boiler, might be possible to design a system being able to cope below -1 or -2 by using those few extra Kw's.

Another thing, compared to UK how to you find regulation here? I've not spent much time in UK but I've spent some time in other country's, enough time to figure out plumbing and heating regulation, have to say their is some difference, apart from Gas, regulation is pretty scarce here.

It all a bit silly, if your BER calculations came to 25 kw but your rad requirement is 30 kw do you go with the rads or the Ber, at the moment it's is no real problem but i see bad things ahead so i better get my head round it myself. For most modern gas boilers you can set the heat load via the logic on the boiler, a lot of boilers come factory set at 60% of their available output, the boilers i do you can have a 38kw combi and screw the heat load down to 8kw by changing the value on the screen, also to give you a idea how funky the controls are if you put the boiler on auto and have a roomstat wired back to the boiler, it will time how long the property takes to get to temperature then adjust the kw output downward to find the most economic setting and add in the outdoor sensor then it don't get much better than that:), Gary.

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Sounds good, knew Gas control had improved over the last few years. Just not been installing many. last while its been all geo stuff. Your right about working out the BER details to save future head aches.

New installations are quite at moment, most work is in maintenance. Maintenance is a nightmare here, when you go into houses its like walking on egg shells, no idea what to expect, a minor problem turns out to be a lot more than minor when you find all other sorts of problems. Sometimes its hard to tell customers the real expensive system they've paid for is causing trouble solely due to bad installation. Its embarrassing almost awkward.

Plumbing systems are real bad, a lot of fancy bathroom suppliers dish out all the latest European stuff, when you go to fix it, most problems are down to lack of pressure, gravity pressure is not enough. Then their is the parts issue, most common plumbing suppliers don't have parts in stock, you have to go back to the fancy bathroom shop. Most of those shops have closed down, or about to be. All over I find the situation real bad here.

I'm arming my self with enough knowledge before I go banging Ireland's decision makers doors as something has to be done. No way will I stay here for the rest of my days fixing other peoples messes, when the mess could have been avoided. I think their is an opportunity now with the boom over, money is tight, no one can afford to pay for bad installation anymore.