Unicef Confirms 0% Child Malnutrition in Cuba

Soldie

aurelius79 wrote: »

I'm not praising the Castro regime for this accomplishment, I'm praising the efforts of the Cuban people as a whole.

Politics and prejudices aside, the comradery and perseverance of the Cuban people can only be admired and respected.

I'm curious to hear more about the role that the Cuban people played in all of this. We know that Cuba is a communist dictatorship, and we also know that the shutting down and nationalising of all opposition media outlets has resulted in Cuba having the 6th lowest press freedom in the world -- to the point where any criticism of the government is a crime. Can you be more specific about the "efforts" of the Cuban people that are to be "prais[ed]"?

nesf

aurelius79 wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to compare Cuba's development with Chile's. Chile has a long history compared to that of Cuba. Chile is many times larger that Cuba and has many times more natural resources. It also hasn't been subject to a 50 year embargo by the most powerful country in the world. Chile's socialist revolution was crushed by the U.S., who was backing the ruthless military dictator Augusto Pinochet.

But the point is that Chile, despite being ruled by a "ruthless military dictator" achieved superior gains in welfare and health than Cuba did. You're very quick to laud Cuba yet you dismiss the far greater gains achieved by Chile.

Soldie

As an aside, Swedish statistician Dr. Hans Rosling has given a very interesting presentation where he shows, among other things, that there is a very clear and demonstrable link between a high human development index and high economic freedoms.

Permabear

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southsiderosie

nesf wrote: »

But the point is that Chile, despite being ruled by a "ruthless military dictator" achieved superior gains in welfare and health than Cuba did. You're very quick to laud Cuba yet you dismiss the far greater gains achieved by Chile.

THANK YOU!!!

And you can add South Korea to that list as well...Extremely poor in the 1960s, military dictatorship, massive labor repression that supported export production...and today healthy, highly educated and stable (and wealthy).

If you think that the ends (health and welfare) justify the means (authoritarianism), then Cuba failed miserably when compared to states that were actually worse-off in 1960, but are far ahead of Cuba today. Singapore is another example: Lee Kwan Yew justified a strong, strict state that occasionally trampled on civil liberties and political freedoms in order to transform Singapore from a poor colonial city to one of the richest countries in the world. Singapore, like Cuba had an experience of colonialism and of powerful neighbors to the north. Yet today they outperform many long-industrialized countries on social statistics.

aurelius79

Soldie wrote: »

I'm curious to hear more about the role that the Cuban people played in all of this. We know that Cuba is a communist dictatorship, and we also know that the shutting down and nationalising of all opposition media outlets has resulted in Cuba having the 6th lowest press freedom in the world -- to the point where any criticism of the government is a crime. Can you be more specific about the "efforts" of the Cuban people that are to be "prais[ed]"?

Ok, you want to talk to me about our beloved "freedom of the press"? Go down to Dublin and put in a request to have a public access station on channel 5. I hope you have a bit of cash. Try starting up a pirate radio station, see how far you get. Try writing a book about how the Jewish holocaust was possibly the result of a conspiracy between European Zionists, the Nazis, and the British Royal family.

Now tell how great our "freedom" is. Tell me what good "freedom of the press" is when we don't even have basic freedom of expression in this country?

Don't be such hypocrites.

southsiderosie

aurelius79 wrote: »

Ok, you want to talk to me about our beloved "freedom of the press"? Go down to Dublin and put in a request to have a public access station on channel 5. I hope you have a bit of cash. Try starting up a pirate radio station, see how far you get. Try writing a book about how the Jewish holocaust was possibly the result of a conspiracy between European Zionists, the Nazis, and the British Royal family.

Now tell how great our "freedom" is. Tell me what good "freedom of the press" is when we don't even have basic freedom of expression in this country?

Don't be such hypocrites.

You claim to not have freedom of expression, and you've just posted a freely available video from the internet that highlights the bad behavior of the state? Are you joking?

I don't know what it is about Cuba that makes people so batty. When I lived in Miami, I spent a lot of time arguing with hardliners about the embargo and US relations with Cuba, who refuse to acknowledge the role that extreme inequality played in the revolution. Now I can't believe I am having an argument with someone about political and civil liberties. The validity of Cuba's health statistics are (barely) debatable. Political repression on the island is not.

I had a longer post written, but I deleted it. There is no point in arguing with you. You have made light of every comment highlighting the oppression that Cubans live under - I still have not recovered from your referring to a photo of balseros as being on a "family outing". It is an insult to Cubans - and to common sense - that you would dare to compare freedom of expression on the island with ANY Western European country.

I hope you have the opportunity to someday meet with Cuban refugees - not the elites who left on planes in the 1960s, but the regular people who risked their lives on rickety rafts, leaving family and friends behind in order to seek out the freedom to shape their lives as they saw fit, rather than having the state decide it for them. Then perhaps you would not be so flippant about the behavior of their government - or your own.

Permabear

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aurelius79

southsiderosie wrote: »

THANK YOU!!!

And you can add South Korea to that list as well...Extremely poor in the 1960s, military dictatorship, massive labor repression that supported export production...and today healthy, highly educated and stable (and wealthy).

If you think that the ends (health and welfare) justify the means (authoritarianism), then Cuba failed miserably when compared to states that were actually worse-off in 1960, but are far ahead of Cuba today. Singapore is another example: Lee Kwan Yew justified a strong, strict state that occasionally trampled on civil liberties and political freedoms in order to transform Singapore from a poor colonial city to one of the richest countries in the world. Singapore, like Cuba had an experience of colonialism and of powerful neighbors to the north. Yet today they outperform many long-industrialized countries on social statistics.

Yeah, lots of people seem to forget about the Korean War. I don't blame you though, a lot of people barely remember Vietnam these days.

Ok, let's get something straight. Cuba is one of the last countries in the world that has refused to embrace the western capitalist/consumerist ideology.

Chile, Korea, Afghanistan, Singapore, Vietnam, Cambodia...all these countries were battlegrounds during the Cold War. The U.S. and others poured billions of dollars into these countries to push the "commie bastards" back. Most of these countries had vast natural resources. In Afghanistan's case, it was heroin. Cuba had nothing of real value worth fighting for, so the U.S. just closed Cuba off from the rest of the world to teach them a lesson.

aurelius79

southsiderosie wrote: »

You claim to not have freedom of expression, and you've just posted a freely available video from the internet that highlights the bad behavior of the state? Are you joking?

You bring up another excellent point. The internet. Last bastion of free speech and expression. Anyone who uses Eircom do me a favor and go to the following link and tell me what you see.

http://thepiratebay.org/

That site is one of the most widely used torrent sites. Instead of making the entertainment industry responsible for it's own copyright protection systems, the Irish government has seen fit to ban torrent sites all together, regardless of the fact that a large percentage of shared files are free anyway. TV shows, public documentaries and independent films, true independent media (not Youtube), all this is now being made unavailable to everyone by the Irish state.

Here's a good article in the Irish Times about internet censorship.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0304/1224242232688.html

Soldie

aurelius79 wrote: »

You bring up another excellent point. The internet. Last bastion of free speech and expression. Anyone who uses Eircom do me a favor and go to the following link and tell me what you see.

http://thepiratebay.org/

That site is one of the most widely used torrent sites. Instead of making the entertainment industry responsible for it's own copyright protection systems, the Irish government has seen fit to ban torrent sites all together, regardless of the fact that a large percentage of shared files are free anyway. TV shows, public documentaries and independent films, true independent media (not Youtube), all this is now being made unavailable to everyone by the Irish state.

Entirely wrong. Eircom--a private company--has banned The Pirate Bay, not the Irish state. If you're unhappy with this then feel free to change ISP, as Eircom are the only Irish ISP to have banned the now defunct torrent tracker. In capitalist countries there is competition and choice -- great, isn't it?

aurelius79

Soldie wrote: »

Entirely wrong. Eircom--a private company--has banned The Pirate Bay, not the Irish state. If you're unhappy with this then feel free to change ISP, as Eircom are the only Irish ISP to have banned the now defunct torrent tracker. In capitalist countries there is competition and choice -- great, isn't it?

Yeah, you still don't seem to get it. Try reading the article I posted at the bottom.

"Irma, which represents EMI, Sony, Warners and Universal, has begun contacting ISPs asking them to sign up to an agreement similar to the one made with Eircom..."

"Blackout Ireland says it is a group of Irish internet users “concerned by the prospect of Ireland having a censored internet...We do not think private companies should be allowed dictate what websites the Irish people are allowed to visit,” its website says.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0304/1224242232688.html

Soldie

aurelius79 wrote: »

Yeah, you still don't seem to get it. Try reading the article I posted at the bottom.

"Irma, which represents EMI, Sony, Warners and Universal, has begun contacting ISPs asking them to sign up to an agreement similar to the one made with Eircom..."

"Blackout Ireland says it is a group of Irish internet users “concerned by the prospect of Ireland having a censored internet...We do not think private companies should be allowed dictate what websites the Irish people are allowed to visit,” its website says.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0304/1224242232688.html

Private companies are not "dictat[ing]" anything. They offer products and services, and if you don't like what's being offered then you're under no obligation to avail of those products and services.

In this case Irma, a group representing several companies, has successfully lobbied Eircom to block a popular torrent tracker. Every other Irish ISP refused to comply with Irma's request.

Here's an e-mail reply I got from Digiweb shortly after Eircom blocked The Pirate Bay:

Hello XXX,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Currently, we have no plans to block our customers from any websites including
The Pirate Bay on our Network.

If you wish to place an order please contact our Sales Team on 1800 28 58 28 to
hear what options we have available.

Kind Regards,
Anne
Digiweb Customer Care Team

I note that, once again, when Cuba is critised, you divert the discussion onto another utterly irrelevant topic.

Permabear

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aurelius79

Soldie wrote: »

In this case Irma, a group representing several companies, has successfully lobbied Eircom to block a popular torrent tracker. Every other Irish ISP refused to comply with Irma's request.

Successfully lobbied? Are you f**king kidding me? Irma brought legal proceedings against Eircom and an out of court settlement was made to avoid prosecution. Lobbies had nothing to do with it whatsoever!

"Eircom also agreed not to oppose moves by the industry group to block access to websites such as The Pirate Bay, which is the subject of court action in Sweden."

Did you actually read the article?

I note that, once again, when Cuba is critised, you deflect the discussion onto another utterly irrelevant topic.

You are the one incessantly bringing up this idea of "freedom of press". You are the one who chose to ignore my point on freedom of the press in this country.

Soldie

aurelius79 wrote: »

Successfully lobbied? Are you f**king kidding me? Irma brought legal proceedings against Eircom and an out of court settlement was made to avoid prosecution. Lobbies had nothing to do with it whatsoever!

"Eircom also agreed not to oppose moves by the industry group to block access to websites such as The Pirate Bay, which is the subject of court action in Sweden."

Did you actually read the article?

I won't discuss Irma or Eircom any longer in this thread. It has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic, and is one of many examples of you trying to change the topic.

You are the one incessantly bringing up this idea of "freedom of press". You are the one who chose to ignore my point on freedom of the press in this country.

I ignore it because it is irrelevant. This thread is about Cuba. The original poster claims that Cuba has eliminated child malnutrition, and I've consistently pointed out that such a claim must be placed under immense scrutiny. The reason for this is two-fold: Cuba's history of fiercely repressing its citizens, and Cuba's highly inefficient centrally-planned economy.

You continue to ignore the violence inflicted by the Cuban regime and insist that its figures are undeniably true. To repeat a question I asked earlier: can you please explain why you place such faith in the figures presented by the communist dictatorship government of Cuba? Further, can you do so without referencing Norway, Chile, Ireland, Eircom, or whatever other part of the world you might otherwise wish to take us to?

K-9

aurelius79 wrote: »

Yeah, you still don't seem to get it. Try reading the article I posted at the bottom.

"Irma, which represents EMI, Sony, Warners and Universal, has begun contacting ISPs asking them to sign up to an agreement similar to the one made with Eircom..."

"Blackout Ireland says it is a group of Irish internet users “concerned by the prospect of Ireland having a censored internet...We do not think private companies should be allowed dictate what websites the Irish people are allowed to visit,” its website says.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0304/1224242232688.html

No, you don't get it. You are comparing the above to this:

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

sceptre

Irish press freedom is so far from the topic of this thread that it frightens me (or at least dismays me) that you guys, who can type, have driven the thread there.

You can either get back on topic or have the thread closed. Start a different thread on Irish press freedom if if pleases you. Given that of late I've had a journalistic background a day or two a week I'll happily contribute to such a thread. But it's completely off-topic for this one so get with the programme please.

Aurelius79, this is the second time in two days that you've driven a thread into irrelevant wackyland so knock it off and refrain from doing so, despite any urges to do so you may have. If you have an issue with this admonishment, please contact me by PM to discuss it. Either way, it is not advisable.

/mod

aurelius79

sceptre wrote: »

Irish press freedom is so far from the topic of this thread that it frightens me (or at least dismays me) that you guys, who can type, have driven the thread there.

You can either get back on topic or have the thread closed. Start a different thread on Irish press freedom if if pleases you. Given that of late I've had a journalistic background a day or two a week I'll happily contribute to such a thread. But it's completely off-topic for this one so get with the programme please.

Aurelius79, this is the second time in two days that you've driven a thread into irrelevant wackyland so knock it off and refrain from doing so, despite any urges to do so you may have. If you have an issue with this admonishment, please contact me by PM to discuss it. Either way, it is not advisable.

/mod

I was simply trying the demonstrate the hypocrisy behind condemning the Cuban government regarding press freedom when developed countries like Ireland are putting increasingly restrictive controls in place.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

nesf

aurelius79 wrote: »

I was simply trying the demonstrate the hypocrisy behind condemning the Cuban government regarding press freedom when developed countries like Ireland are putting increasingly restrictive controls in place.

Restrictive controls? Christ.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Time Magazine

sceptre wrote: »

Aurelius79, this is the second time in two days that you've driven a thread into irrelevant wackyland so knock it off and refrain from doing so, despite any urges to do so you may have. If you have an issue with this admonishment, please contact me by PM to discuss it. Either way, it is not advisable.

OMG, RESTRICTIVE CONTROLS! Ergo the HSE is crap.

I think I'm getting the hang of this thread.

andrew

aurelius79 wrote: »

I was simply trying the demonstrate the hypocrisy behind condemning the Cuban government regarding press freedom when developed countries like Ireland are putting increasingly restrictive controls in place.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

You know what are shit? Restrictions on freedoms, wherever they take place. Yeah they exist in developed countries. They're shit there too. You know what are especially shit? The restrictions on freedoms which exist in Cuba. They're so shit that they render any claim that Cuba has done well meaningless, because it has done so by killing lots of innocent people. Not that Cuba has done well, because face it, the place is a shithole.

Flamed Diving

aurelius79 wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to compare Cuba's development with Chile's. Chile has a long history compared to that of Cuba. Chile is many times larger that Cuba and has many times more natural resources. It also hasn't been subject to a 50 year embargo by the most powerful country in the world. Chile's socialist revolution was crushed by the U.S., who was backing the ruthless military dictator Augusto Pinochet.

I thought this kind of point was 'irrelevant'?

Amusing.

Nodin

Soldie wrote: »

You say it's "intellectual dishonesty" to claim other otherwise yet, ironically, you casually ignored an academic paper which explains why socialist economies don't work, and instead said authoritatively that the U.S. can be blamed -- without any explanation.

Cuba's main market for it's exports was the US, which ceased trading. The US also penalises companies that trade with Cuba, regardless of their nationality. Therefore, obviously and logically, US action has damaged Cuba, regardless of damage done or not done by the internal efficiencies or otherwise of its economy.

Whether "socialist economies can work", how well they can survive or whatever else is another topic.

Flamed Diving

aurelius79 wrote: »

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

Six posts later...

aurelius79 thanks Nodin

Flamed Diving

Aurelius, now that it is clear that you have not in fact left the discussion, would you care to address one of the many points that you have been dodging? Either that or simply admit defeat?