Is Murgha child abuse?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

anathea wrote: »

My mother kept a punishment book. If myself or my sister did anything wrong our mother would put a note in her book. Our father would tell her to put a note in if any of our brothers misbehaved outside of the house. Every night before the roasry the book would be opened. If there was a note about any of us it would be read out. We had to agree that we had done wrong and that we deserved to be punished. We would then have to go and change into our nightshifts with no underwear underneath. Back in the living room a wooden chair would have been placed to one side of the fireplace. If there was more than one being punished there would be a chair for each. We had to stan in front of the chair. We would then be made to lift out our shifts over our knees and kneel on the chair. We would then be told to pray for a just punishment. After the rosary, our father would announce how many blows of lashes we were to get and with which stick or strap. Our mother would then lift the back of the shift up and pin it above our waists. She would then go to the back of the chair and hold our shoulders. After that our father would then read from the book of proverbs. Then we would be given the mortification of the flesh of our backsides. When it was finished we would pray that we would learn from the punishment. We would be sent to bed after that. It did not do us a bit of harm and we always respected our parents.

1 - You HAD to agree? You mean you were forced to agree without any respect whatsover.

2 - This is child abuse bordering on written childporn.

Ickle Magoo

No, no harm at all...er...other than the fact that now you think having your child kneel on rice and holding a bible outstretched is okay. :eek:

tryingsohard

anathea wrote: »

My mother kept a punishment book. If myself or my sister did anything wrong our mother would put a note in her book. Our father would tell her to put a note in if any of our brothers misbehaved outside of the house. Every night before the roasry the book would be opened. If there was a note about any of us it would be read out. We had to agree that we had done wrong and that we deserved to be punished. We would then have to go and change into our nightshifts with no underwear underneath. Back in the living room a wooden chair would have been placed to one side of the fireplace. If there was more than one being punished there would be a chair for each. We had to stan in front of the chair. We would then be made to lift out our shifts over our knees and kneel on the chair. We would then be told to pray for a just punishment. After the rosary, our father would announce how many blows of lashes we were to get and with which stick or strap. Our mother would then lift the back of the shift up and pin it above our waists. She would then go to the back of the chair and hold our shoulders. After that our father would then read from the book of proverbs. Then we would be given the mortification of the flesh of our backsides. When it was finished we would pray that we would learn from the punishment. We would be sent to bed after that. It did not do us a bit of harm and we always respected our parents.

There is nowhere to begin with this. How is this something normal? The only word you spelled wrong in this text was rosary; hard to get it out??? Pray for just punishment??You'd better have been some hellraising kids to deserve to be treated in that way!!!!

May I ask what decade these punishments took place in?

tryingsohard

And excuse me, why were your misdemeanours and those of your sister recorded by your mother, while your brother's offences took place outside the house and were noted by your father?

eviltwin

She has to be taking the mickey...surely nothing like this goes on outside a Dickens novel?

And if it does I can't imagine how the poor abused child ( for that is what it is ) could grow up to say it "didn't do them any harm". It just goes to show that violence breeds violence. Smacking a child is the easy option, it requires no thought or explanation. Actually taking the time to teach children how to behave in the first place seems to be a really difficult task for many parents :mad:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

eviltwin wrote: »

She has to be taking the mickey...surely nothing like this goes on outside a Dickens novel?

I did consider hitting the troll button, but this happened quiet a bit here in the past. While she says she turned out okay, thousands who went through the same thing are in therapy decades after the event.

Anathea - what do you think a survivor of the Christian Brothers or Magdelene Sisters would say to it? What would you say to them?

anathea

tryingsohard wrote: »

And excuse me, why were your misdemeanours and those of your sister recorded by your mother, while your brother's offences took place outside the house and were noted by your father?

We were only started in the book after our confirmation. Before that we would be punished fairly soon after the wrongdoing. After confirmation our father was responsible for punishing the boys and our mother was responsible for punishing us. For minor things we would be pandied by our mother. The boys would usually be given a few thumps with his fists by our father. My sister and I had to help our mother with the housework. Our brothers never did any. They helped our father outside although they had a lot more free time than we did. The only person who wrote in the book was our mother. If any of the boys did anything wrong she would tell our father and he would either give them a few thumps or tell her to put it in the book. I do not remember it happening that the boys did anything wrong in the house that would have them put in the book. They were mostly puinished for things that happened outside such as fighting, going places thay they shouldn't, tearing their clothes and doings dangerous things. If they acted up in the house they would be threatened with the book and it would stop straight away.

I was reared in a loving home not an institution. We were not punished for things we did not do. We knew the rules and it was our choice to keep them or face the consequences.

Jo King

tryingsohard wrote: »

There is nowhere to begin with this. How is this something normal? The only word you spelled wrong in this text was rosary; hard to get it out???

What is the significance of this?
From what I can see the word rosary was used twice, once correctly and once incorrectly. I think there is possibly another typo.
The woman was stripped practically naked in front of her siblings and beaten severely with an instrument. She also had to watch the same being done to her siblings. This was a frequent occurrence by the sound of it.
You are complaining about spelling?
I don't get it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

anathea wrote: »

We were only started in the book after our confirmation. Before that we would be punished fairly soon after the wrongdoing. After confirmation our father was responsible for punishing the boys and our mother was responsible for punishing us. For minor things we would be pandied by our mother. The boys would usually be given a few thumps with his fists by our father. My sister and I had to help our mother with the housework. Our brothers never did any. They helped our father outside although they had a lot more free time than we did. The only person who wrote in the book was our mother. If any of the boys did anything wrong she would tell our father and he would either give them a few thumps or tell her to put it in the book. I do not remember it happening that the boys did anything wrong in the house that would have them put in the book. They were mostly puinished for things that happened outside such as fighting, going places thay they shouldn't, tearing their clothes and doings dangerous things. If they acted up in the house they would be threatened with the book and it would stop straight away.

I was reared in a loving home not an institution. We were not punished for things we did not do. We knew the rules and it was our choice to keep them or face the consequences.

There seems to be no difference.

ColmDawson

browndress wrote: »

I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland.

If you're uncertain of whether or not a method is considered child abuse, I'd say it's best to avoid it...

Kosseegan

anathea wrote: »

Then we would be given the mortification of the flesh of our backsides.

Does this mean that you were whipped on your bare bottoms?
What is meant by confirmation?
What is pandied?

Thicktights

Kosseegan wrote: »

Does this mean that you were whipped on your bare bottoms?
What is meant by confirmation?
What is pandied?

Confirmation is a religious ceremnony undergone by children. It used to take place when children were 8 or 9 but nowadays they are in the region of 12.

Pandying is the beating of the palms of the hands with a stick or strap. It is unusual to hear of it in a domestic context. It was widespread in schools until about 30 years ago.

Davidth88

This is one of the saddest most depressing threads I have ever read .

This murgha is abuse , simple as ...... It reminds me of what I have read in the papers recently from certain instutions .

As for kneeling on rice , janey mack , who could think of this sort of thing , whats next tenko , bury them up to the neck ?

Shocking shocking stuff

Please god I never even think of resorting to such things .

Oldfool

anathea wrote: »

My mother kept a punishment book. If myself or my sister did anything wrong our mother would put a note in her book. Our father would tell her to put a note in if any of our brothers misbehaved outside of the house. Every night before the roasry the book would be opened. If there was a note about any of us it would be read out. We had to agree that we had done wrong and that we deserved to be punished. We would then have to go and change into our nightshifts with no underwear underneath. Back in the living room a wooden chair would have been placed to one side of the fireplace. If there was more than one being punished there would be a chair for each. We had to stan in front of the chair. We would then be made to lift out our shifts over our knees and kneel on the chair. We would then be told to pray for a just punishment. After the rosary, our father would announce how many blows of lashes we were to get and with which stick or strap. Our mother would then lift the back of the shift up and pin it above our waists. She would then go to the back of the chair and hold our shoulders. After that our father would then read from the book of proverbs. Then we would be given the mortification of the flesh of our backsides. When it was finished we would pray that we would learn from the punishment. We would be sent to bed after that. It did not do us a bit of harm and we always respected our parents.

My God! The pain must have been dreadful. I thought being sent to my bedroom to take my knickers down for a few wallops of the hairbrush was bad. Even at 16 or 17, I would stay lying face down on the bed crying and blubbering like a baby for an hour afterwards. I was threatened with a cane but it never came about. I was terrified at the thought of it. My older sister was caned for coming home late once and our brothers were caned once in a while.

kizzyr

I post this as someone who isn't a parent so I appreciate that by not having children I can't understand fully the difficulties that go with parenthood. Minding my sisters children for her from time to time doesn't even come close.

However, I have parents, parents who were strict in the way they raised us but never once raised a hand to any of us and yet we didn't run wild, abuse their trust, do badly at school. In fact we all became well rounded, well grounded responsible adults with a healty and loving relationship with each other and our parents.
Reading this thread has really made me realise how lucky I am (we are, including my siblings) to have had the parents that I have. I am overcome with sadness for those of you who were (granted in my opinion only) treated so badly by your parents. Beating and humiliating a child is not the way to teach them to behave, it teaches them to fear. Please don't beat, hurt or humiliate your children there are other ways to teach them respect and the importance and necessity of good behaviour.

Kosseegan

Thicktights wrote: »

Pandying is the beating of the palms of the hands with a stick or strap. It is unusual to hear of it in a domestic context. It was widespread in schools until about 30 years ago.

Beating the hands with a stick seems dangerous. There is a chance of breaking bones in the hand. It is not done in my country. However, sometimes girls are beaten on the soles of their feet to preserve modesty. I think that it is also dangerous.

di11on

Kosseegan wrote: »

Beating the hands with a stick seems dangerous. There is a chance of breaking bones in the hand. It is not done in my country. However, sometimes girls are beaten on the soles of their feet to preserve modesty. I think that it is also dangerous.

Yeah, we're talking about children here... beating is one thing, but do parents really need weapons to discipline their children?

Hellrazer

Kosseegan wrote: »

However, sometimes girls are beaten on the soles of their feet to preserve modesty.

And do you mind me asking how something like that preserves modesty?

Nevyn

Kosseegan which country would that be?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Thaedydal wrote: »

Kosseegan which country would that be?

I asked some time ago, but didn't get an naswer - I hope you are more successful!

Piste

Maxton Helpful Sandalwood wrote: »

Nice to see that parents are actively seeking to find new and innovative ways to PUNISH their children. Maybe you should question yourselves as parents and maybe educate yourself a little before becomming parents.

Punishment IS the worst thing you can do, your children will never be "normal" if you are to punish them, be it mental or physical. It's extremely negative and does more harm than good.

Do some research into possitive reinforcement, be warned though, this actually requires you to have something of a brain, some effort and determination. Since punishment is so much easier, I can't see many people dropping it any time soon.

If you are going to force your child to hold a position that causes pain, more like a form of torture than anything else, then you are not fit to raise a child, regardless of what you think. Very very bad parent...

Negative Punishment and positive reinforcement should go hand in hand when teaching a child what is acceptable and what's not. Negative punishment (taking away toys, priviledges etc.) should be used to teach them what not to do and prevent them from doing it again. Positive reinforcement should be used to teach them what they should do and encourage the behaviour.

anathea wrote: »

My mother kept a punishment book. If myself or my sister did anything wrong our mother would put a note in her book. Our father would tell her to put a note in if any of our brothers misbehaved outside of the house. Every night before the roasry the book would be opened. If there was a note about any of us it would be read out. We had to agree that we had done wrong and that we deserved to be punished. We would then have to go and change into our nightshifts with no underwear underneath. Back in the living room a wooden chair would have been placed to one side of the fireplace. If there was more than one being punished there would be a chair for each. We had to stan in front of the chair. We would then be made to lift out our shifts over our knees and kneel on the chair. We would then be told to pray for a just punishment. After the rosary, our father would announce how many blows of lashes we were to get and with which stick or strap. Our mother would then lift the back of the shift up and pin it above our waists. She would then go to the back of the chair and hold our shoulders. After that our father would then read from the book of proverbs. Then we would be given the mortification of the flesh of our backsides. When it was finished we would pray that we would learn from the punishment. We would be sent to bed after that. It did not do us a bit of harm and we always respected our parents.

Clearly it did as you abuse your daughter. What are you going to do when she realises you can't make her kneel on rice and tells you to f*ck off? You'll have lost your only method of discipline.

Ozeire

browndress wrote: »

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

From what I have read about Murga_punishment . It sounds to me just like what some military use in integrations to break the prisoner and get a confession.

So no don’t use it on the kids find something else .

Kosseegan

Thaedydal wrote: »

Kosseegan which country would that be?

My country is in the East. i am not going to say which country because we are only a small community in Ireland and I do not wish to be identified and harassed by the social services.

Hellrazer

Kosseegan wrote: »

My country is in the East. i am not going to say which country because we are only a small community in Ireland and I do not wish to be identified and harassed by the social services.

Honestly if this is the way you treat children then maybe you should be "identified and harassed by the social services"

Kosseegan

Hellrazer wrote: »

And do you mind me asking how something like that preserves modesty?

Because only the footwear needs to be removed, rather that the clothing from the waist down,when the bottom is being beaten.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kosseegan wrote: »

My country is in the East. i am not going to say which country because we are only a small community in Ireland and I do not wish to be identified and harassed by the social services.

Why would you be harrassed? Are you ashamed of what you said?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Piste wrote: »

Negative Punishment and positive reinforcement should go hand in hand when teaching a child what is acceptable and what's not. Negative punishment (taking away toys, priviledges etc.) should be used to teach them what not to do and prevent them from doing it again. Positive reinforcement should be used to teach them what they should do and encourage the behaviour.

Punishment should not be used at all. Simple as.

Nevyn

Actions have consquences, this is something which we have to teach children.
We teach them this by when they do something which they should not that they have to deal with the repercussions. If we didn't do this then they get a shock when it happens to them outside of the home in school and after that.
Which is why follow through is needed, which in this household meansbeing banned from the pc which ever fun activity they prefer or being made to do extra chores or a time out in thier room.

Yes these days children have a lot of liberties and material possesions lot of us didn't have when we were growing up and it is no harm to make that point to them.

Kosseegan

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why would you be harrassed? Are you ashamed of what you said?

I am not ashamed, but I am aware that American influence in this country is so prevalent that mumbo jumbo has replaced sensible child-rearing practices that have been practised for thousands of years. I do not want any do-gooder social workers police telling me or my community how we should live. There are parents drinking in pubs all day with children left outside and children absent from school regularly and what do they care? Numerous children leave school illiterate which is all right but if a parent punishes a child for misbeghavior at school the parent is a criminal!

metrovelvet

And thank god the american influence is here. We'll have confident bright, outspoken, competetive children who will grow up knowing no one has the right to beat them. Domestic violence starts at home.

Oh and americans dont spend all day in the pub.