Advice needed - dog has bitten!

samsonite

Good morning all,

I'm looking for some advice regarding our Golden Retriever, Billy. Billy has some behavioural issues e.g. possession aggression and is quite a nervous dog. We have had a dog behaviourist out to help us and it has helped us with the possession aggression and a number of other training issues and we honestly thought he had turned a corner and we're delighted with him.

However on Stephen's Day a relative was over and was petting him, he asked her not to pet him when he demanded attention however she didn't stop and actually went down on her honkers and was rubbing his tummy. She then bent over him and he growled and approx 10 seconds later he bite her on the arm. Now it's more a graze and he could have bitten harder if he wanted. I'm telling you all the detail incase it makes a difference. A dog should never bite and I suppose I'm giving the details to help paint the picture and describe why he may have done it!

We are at our wits end and don't really know what to do. We didn't sleep a wink on Stephen's night and had decided that we would have to send him to doggy heaven and his unpredictablity is unmanagable however when we went down to him and saw his little face we knew we couldn't do it.

Billy is 2 and we rehomed him at 1, we think he may have been taken away from his mother too young which is why is may have these insecurities - he is scared of a lot of things.

Please, please offer us some advice on what to do. We love Billy to bits and most of the time he is the most affectionate, loving dog. He just lies in front of the fire and doesn't budge. Obviously we cannot take the chance that he will get worse, does anybody know of anything we can do, we'll try absolutley anything.

Thanks for reading this.:(

Magenta

He bit out of self defence. He tried to warn your relative that he didn't want her attention but she continued to rub his belly. In his eyes, her putting him in the situation of him lying down having his belly rubbed is a very dominating thing for her to do, especially because she was bent over him. It sounds like he felt completely dominated and crowded and felt that she wasn't listening to any of the warnings he was giving her (which appears to be correct).

seamus

Magenta wrote: »

It sounds like he felt completely dominated and crowded and felt that she wasn't listening to any of the warnings he was giving her (which appears to be correct).

Agreed. Having the dog put down is more than just a bit drastic. You should only be considering that if the dog went on a serious attack against another dog or a human. A single bite out of fear or self-defence does not mean that your dog is dangerous or unpredictable.

All dogs will lash out and snap/bite if they're sufficiently agitated or afraid. There's no such thing as a dog that will never bite. The difference is just how long it takes or how easy it is to get a dog into that state.

The fact that your dog didn't go on the attack is a good thing. He's also young enough that you will be able to work on his anxiety and hopefully he will learn to relax in normal circumstances.

The only animal who did wrong here is your relative - she was given a clear warning and failed to heed it. Your dog shouldn't have to suffer because she doesn't understand dogs.

looserock

Do you have Kids? if the answer is no then if you are sensible with him I see no problem, if you do have kids Its different.

Blueprint

I'd agree, your dog showed clearly he was uncomfortable, he gave plenty of warning signs and he was left with no option but to give your relative a warning nip to get her to leave him alone. Since he did no real damage, he was showing considerable bite inhibition. I think the dog was at least fault in this scenario, your relative was to blame for not leaving him alone when he asked her to and you shouldn't have put him in a position where he was exposed to unreliable people in the first place. It would be highly unfair for him to lose his life as a result!

cianer

Totally agree, unfortunatly too many dogs are being blamed for actions resulting from human's behaviour. I can imagine you're feeling rotten at the moment but both you and your dog asked your relative to leave the dog alone but they wouldn't and in the end your dog had to push the issue.

I foster a lot of nervous dogs and find it can be really hard to get visitors to the house to ignore the foster dogs and give them space. I usually get the answer of 'I love dogs and they know it so love me too', and proceed to push into the dogs space. I normally have to get forceful with my visitors to get them to back off so my foster dog doesn't have to.

Maybe in future you could be more forceful about getting your visitors to back off, or if you have a particularily stubburn visitor maybe leave your dog in another room with a treat so he's not put under pressure.

At 2 years old he's still very young and has tons of time to get confidence and not be scared of everything

Paul91

don't put the dog down for the humans ignorance, if you feel uncomfortable keeping him, get in contact with a rescue group who will get him sent to the UK to be re-trained i know DAWG do this, not sure where you are - they are based in Cork

Whispered

samsonite, i hope you feel better after this thread. It's great news that there is no need to get your Billy put to sleep.

Just be aware this can happen and make sure it doesn't happen again. I would suggest crate training him so he has a safe comfortable place to be where he can observe your visitors and know that they can't get to him and you can relax knowing he wont be in a position to bite.

samsonite

Thank you everybody for replying. I think my post was a knee jerk reaction to what happened, we could never send him to doggie heaven because we failed to get him the help he deserves.

Could anybody recommend any training classes we could bring him to. We tried a behaviourist and although they offered a lot of practical advice (which we have followed) I think classes over a few months would benefit us all as it wouldn't be information overload in one session.

Or any books, we really are committed to helping him deal with his insecurities.

I probably should have said in the original email, this was not the first time he has bitten, he has bitten me twice.:o

roxiesmammy

samsonite wrote: »

Thank you everybody for replying. I think my post was a knee jerk reaction to what happened, we could never send him to doggie heaven because we failed to get him the help he deserves.

Could anybody recommend any training classes we could bring him to. We tried a behaviourist and although they offered a lot of practical advice (which we have followed) I think classes over a few months would benefit us all as it wouldn't be information overload in one session.

Or any books, we really are committed to helping him deal with his insecurities.

I probably should have said in the original email, this was not the first time he has bitten, he has bitten me twice.:o

why were u bitten?

samsonite

I was bitten as he was guarding possessions at the time (when he has more than one object eg a ball and a stick he gets very possessive and lashes out although we are working on this and he is improving!)

I was bitten another time when I was trying to get him into the car and he wouldn't go!

He's a complex little fella!

Blueprint

Good luck and well done on not giving up on him!

Jean Donaldson's books are very good and she's got some on dog agression etc. You can get them on Amazon.

This site might also have some useful articles:

http://www.dogstardaily.com/

samsonite

Thanks Blueprint, I'll check out those books. It's great to be recommended books because when I google looking for books it's information overload and I don't know where to begin.

dudara

Kids can be very trying on a dog. I've seen it before with border collies at home. The dog was growling for ages trying to get the child to leave it alone, before it finally clamped it's teeth onto the child's arm. She didn't break skin or really leave marks, but she had been pushed too far. We couldn't really blame the dog.

The dog biting it's owner is another matter, but you're working on that.

Blueprint

Yes, there are a lot of books out there and it's hard to know if they're good or not before you read them...

Turid Rugaas' site on calming signals in dogs might also be worth looking at, and getting your relatives to read... I personally find it all very fascinating.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

cianer

I'd recommend Dublin Dog Training for training classes. I've done classes with John with my problem foster dogs and found him great, he has over 20 years experience

roxiesmammy

I really think as he has bitten 3 times its not books u need but a behaveriost(sp) as he may only get worst and maybe next time the bite could be more serious or maybe he might bite someone that may call the police and demand he be put down, good lick with what ever u decide to do and fair play for trying to get something sorted

Whispered

I agree with roxiesmammy. It is not something that would cause him to have to be put to sleep so long as you are willing to work on it. Which you obviously are.

I can recommend Emmaline Duffy http://www.citizencanineireland.com/contact.asp she helped us get Harley to live with cats. While she worked wonders for us, my dog was not being agressive and his "problem" was not directed at humans. I'm sure she could help you and was very professional, got results quickly and I am very happy to recommend her. You should ask any trainer you intend to use what their experience with nervous/agressive dogs is.

Where in Ireland are you? (sorry if you already said)

samsonite

Hi Helena,

We are in Dublin.

We did have a Behaviourist out in September, and although he was very good (he was recommended by my sister) it's hard to get the most out of the couple of hours you have with them and address all issues.

We mainly addressed the possession aggression and are dealing with that, I think it was easier for us when we thought he was only aggressive over posssessions, it's quite disheartening that he did this when there were no objects involved.

We would honestly do anything to help him, it's just hard to find the correct action to take with him and it's taking it's toll on us all!

Thanks again to everybody for your advice, it has been a great relief and an enormous help to us!

who the fug

dudara wrote: »

Kids can be very trying on a dog. I've seen it before with border collies at home. The dog was growling for ages trying to get the child to leave it alone, before it finally clamped it's teeth onto the child's arm. She didn't break skin or really leave marks, but she had been pushed too far. We couldn't really blame the dog.

+1

Regular scene in our house as a kid


Me running to my mother crying Mummy the dog bit me
Mother replies Stop annoying him


God our two mutts where patience with us as kids, and also very protective

Whispered

I wonder would a weekly class help then? Something that you can build on weekly.

I would probably look at finding someone who has worked with dog agression before.

Again, I would push the idea of crate training. If he's nervous, it will give him somewhere safe to go where you wont have to worry about him or your guests. My dog loves it.

Paul91

our boxer/lab was very agressive to anyone who entered the house who was not either me or my other half, or her immediate family whom he was brought up with, oh and the neighbour and her three year old daughter

anyone else came in and his heckles where up, teeth where shown, and i was holding his collar until i put him outside or in the kitchen, now he calmed down alot after he had the snip, and i mean a heck of a lot, he's also calmed down a lot more recently since we brought in a 4 year old German Shep - don't know if it's the comany and he's feeling less insecure, but it definatly helped - not advising another dog would help your situation, but maybe the snip if not already done?

samsonite

He has had the snip and he also has a brother (not actually related)!

Our other dog is the most placid dog ever and so gentle, he actually tries to discipline Billy sometimes when Billy is being bold!

Paul91

hmmm - sorry i couldn't help - do you ever watch the dog whisperer - might be able to pick some tips up from that

Magenta

Paul91 wrote: »

hmmm - sorry i couldn't help - do you ever watch the dog whisperer - might be able to pick some tips up from that

The dog whisperer is the last thing the OP should be watching for his dog.
The dog whisperer works by bullying dogs, being rough with them and intimidating them. The dog whisperer banks on the dog submitting to him. I don't think the OP's dog would benefit from that, he would probably bite again.

Paul91

Magenta wrote: »

The dog whisperer is the last thing the OP should be watching for his dog.
The dog whisperer works by bullying dogs, being rough with them and intimidating them. The dog whisperer banks on the dog submitting to him. I don't think the OP's dog would benefit from that, he would probably bite again.

i don't see it as bullying, just being patient enough to wait out the agression in the dogs - different view point i suppose

star-pants

Just to note - we're not going to start a discussion on Cesar Milan.

Either way - the OP needs something now because the sooner the better. Watching programmes or reading books won't be particularly practical right now (not that it shouldn't be done).
There have been good suggestions, like Helenas about a weekly class or session with someone who deals with aggressive behaviour - to see if there's anything more that can be done at home to deal with this. The crate too might be a good idea as it gives the dog a safe haven.

Phsyche

Hi, samsonite.

Did you ever check the youtube videos? There are some good ones on training aggressive dogs. Just type in dog training aggression or some such and you'll get loads of links. Some of them might be helpful as a short term help while looking for classes for your dog.

hpsheba

Try www.dogtrainingireland.ie they may be able to help and direct you to the best type of class to help with the problems you are having.

Best of luck and fair play to you for keeping going with Billy, fingers crossed for you.

boardbrowser

Jean Donaldson has written a fantastic book called 'Mine'. A pratical guide to resource guarding. Typically dogs who exhibit resource guarding (objects, food , sleeping locations, owners)often have body handling issues i.e they don't accept being handled in certain ways (restraints/ nail clipping/ collar grabs/ petted in a certain way/groomed).
Helena, i think you touched on a very important point with the crate suggestion.
all to often despite what people are told they continue to ignore a request by the owner of the dog (who knows their dog the best and is familiar with it's triggers and thresholds) to not interact with the dog in a certain way but do so, not to make a point but out of some sort of naiveity.
Crating helps manage the situation and it allows the owner to relax and enjoy their guests company and keeps the dog out of trouble.
Also , you mentioned the bite was a graze as opposed to a puncture to the skin. This gives you information about your dogs' accquired bite inhibition ( which appears to be good).A much more rosier prognosis than if your dogs 1st bite resulted in a shallow/deep puncture or multiple bites. Your dog was electing to do that degree of harm to make his point. I'm not excusing his behaviour but it's important to note. It also provides you with information about what is likely to occur if your dog was to re-offend.
I'm sure that you were given good advice from your last trainer, but just wanted to point out that the dog training business is very unregulated. anyone can call themselves a behaviourist without any real credentials and as Helena pointed out it's imperative to ask any trainer before you hire them , what is their area of expertise, how they will go about training your dog, what qualifications they have, if they are insured and what experience they have with treating aggression cases. Also, ask for referrals from vets or past clients who have dogs with similar issues to your dogs behavioral problems.
Best of luck.

samsonite

Thank you to everybody who replied.

Unfortunately he has bitten again, he bit me this time when I picked him up to put him in the jeep after a walk. No warning, just a bite which is the scary part because you can normally tell when he is going to bite by the look in his eye or he growls.

I feel so sorry for him because I know he doesn't want to be a bold dog, it's the only way he knows. He is scared of everything, traffic, noises, he stops dead when he sees people walking on the pavement. The previous dog training diagnosed him as "status dominance" but I don't think it is a status disorder with him , I think he just a very insecure little dog. I don't know why he bites me when I'm the one who looks after him. We really are at our wits end.

We bought the book "mine" but I think things have escalated now and are no longer just about his possessions.

I think I'm just posting again in the hope somebody else has been through this and had a happy ending because at the moment it's hard to even know when to begin to address this.

The training we do do with him while work to address some small issues but don't seem to be impacting on the major things.

I just wish we knew a path to take with him because at the moment I feel we are failing him.