Advice needed - dog has bitten!

Bessiemae

First thing I would do is bring him to the vet and rule out any possible physical cause for his aggression. He has bitten three times now when being touched, so maybe he is in some sort of pain. It's worth checking out anyway.
When he bites, how bad are they, is he breaking the skin? Is it a quick snap and release?
Find a good weekly class and enrol in it with your dog. Try to find someone who is used to dealing with aggression, a class for problem dogs. Weekly classes help build trust and bonding between you and your dog and should help you recognise situations where he is uncomfortable and give you the tools to deal with them. Or find a behaviourist who will come to you more than once, maybe someone who will do a series of visits.
As best you can try to avoid all situations where he may bite again. If he is aggressive with toys, bones etc don't give him any. Don't try lifting him into the car again. And don't let anyone pet him other than you and whoever else you live with. If you tell someone not to pet your dog they should listen, don't let them ignore you.

Whispered

Samsonite, I think you're in a very difficult situation. You obviously really love your dog and you're not sure what to do.

It doesn't sound like he's dominant to me, dogs often snap out of fear. Or as Bessiemae said, could he be in pain?

Would you have the money to invest in a trainer to come out once or twice to look at how he gets into the car? You know, try to fix that problem so you can safely get him in to bring him to the vet/training classes. Then you can have him checked for pain and attend a class. Not only wil that help identify his problem, it will teach you how to deal with the problem and being around other dogs, if done properly could serve to boost his confidence too. (just choose your class and teacher very carefully)

You are absolutely not failing him, please don't think that. I know so so many people who give up on their dog after the first bite. You're here trying to find a solution.

samsonite

Thanks again for your replies, I thought you may have gotten sick of me posting.

We brought him to the Vet to make sure it was nothing physical and it wasn't, he is perfectly healthy. He growled at the Vet even with muzzle on and then jumped off the table and stood bolt right and growled at me.

I think you are right about it not being dominance. yesterday I brought both dogs for a second walk and Billy would not go once we got to the field, he just lay down and wouldn't budge (obviously I couldn't take him off the lead)! I think he is a deeply insecure dog, he constantly looks for pets (we don't do this on demand though as this is what trainer taught us) and is very scared. He loves people and looks for pets off anybody but we can't allow him do that anymore because he is so unpredictable.

I love Billy to pieces but as much as I hate to say it I don't enjoy him anymore because I am always on tender hooks!

Lexie_Karas

Hey, I don't have any more advice than what's already been given but I just wanted to say I feel bad for you. It's an awful situation to be in and fair play to you for trying to come up with a solution to help your dog. I really hope you can manage to work things out with him and that he can regain your trust. If the worst comes to be though and you feel you need to make a decision about whether or not you can keep him you may be able to find him a suitable home with someone who has experience with this sort of thing.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can find some way to help him over come his nervousness and his snapping... he's lucky that he's with someone who cares as much as you do. Good luck.

Mr. Presentable

OP, I love dogs as much as the next person, but I want mine domesticated. What you have is a semi controlled animal. A dog should never bite the hand that feeds it.

In my opinion the correct thing is to destroy the dog before it causes a more serious injury. Could you live with yourself if next time it bit that child on the face?

samsonite

Thanks Lexie. I don't think we could never give him to somebody though, we'd worry about him too much and I think part of his problem is that he was taking from his mother too young and then his next home gave him up. I thinking giving him away would definitely be failing him and he doesn't have the confidence of security to go through that.

Pinenuts, ofcourse we would never forgive ourselves if anything happened to anybody but at the moment we manage the situation so that it could never happen that he bites a third party. We don't let him off the lead and we don't introduce him to people anymore. It's not as easy as just bringing him to the Vet and putting him to sleep, he has a heartbeat and he deserves a chance. What I need information on is where to get that help.

Paul91

sorry - you probably already said - where are u based?

what i found with my dog and what i have seen on "the Dog Whisperer" is that sometimes if the owner is apprehensive this can feed to the dog, i have seen this previously with my own dogs, if i worried about a situation it tended to make something happen

Whispered

nipplenuts wrote: »

In my opinion the correct thing is to destroy the dog before it causes a more serious injury. Could you live with yourself if next time it bit that child on the face?

I would see your point if the dog attacked ina frenzy. But it didn't, it's biting out of fear. The OP has said loads of times he's insecure. Of course the OP absolutely MUST ensure that the dog is kept away from guests so that he doesn't get the chance to bite. Again OP I would say crate training for this, being able to see whats going on and be "involved" without being overwhelmed by attention would help with his nervousness.

golden

People have different opinions on things that the joys of internet.

But these two are facts that happened to me.


My golden retriever (called shandy RIP) got his hind elbow stuck in a radiator and he turned around to bite me but as soon as he made contact with my skin he released his bite as he was in pain and was trying to release himself (we had to get the swelling down ie use ice and get the vet to sedate and use pain killers to release shandy from the radiator.

The other time was with my cocker spaniel (taffie RIP) i was stroking his back and he bite me brought him to the vet to see why he had bitten he had slipped a disc so was in pain again.

Incidently both dogs did not bite again and died of old age.

You have to go through all the options to you before you (which you are doing) make that ultimate descision either way my heart goes out to you

samsonite

We are based in South Dublin.

I think if he was aggressive all the time there would be no decision to be made as he is quite a sweet dog, at his happiest lying infront of the fire and absolutely adores being brushed. He picks things up quickly so I'm hoping with the right trainer we can turns things around for him.

I will definitely look into crate training - will this work for him, he does appear insecure but he loves people and being beside people and i don't know if he will appreciate being separated especially with our other dog being free??

I have contacted a trainer recommended to be by somebody on here and ordered a book so hopefully with a combination of everything we can sort him out.

Paul91

i would start by checking him youself, i.e. stroke all over the body and see if it causes a reaction somewhere - start softly then apply more pressure, you may be able to identify a "sore" bit - if you can maybe use a muzzle just in case or have someone hold him whom he trusts - check down the spine, joints, stomach, flanks esp

roxiesmammy

samsonite wrote: »

We are based in South Dublin.

I think if he was aggressive all the time there would be no decision to be made as he is quite a sweet dog, at his happiest lying infront of the fire and absolutely adores being brushed. He picks things up quickly so I'm hoping with the right trainer we can turns things around for him.

I will definitely look into crate training - will this work for him, he does appear insecure but he loves people and being beside people and i don't know if he will appreciate being separated especially with our other dog being free??

I have contacted a trainer recommended to be by somebody on here and ordered a book so hopefully with a combination of everything we can sort him out.

yeah but is that not the danger, u dont know when he is going to bite, last time he never gave u a warning which is very dangerous. At least if he was aggresive u would no where u stand but the thing is at the moment u dont. You say he adores been brushed etc who says he aint going to bite then.
By the way im not suggesting that u pts not by any means, but i think its important that u get hold of a trainner now and get something done ASAP: as hanging around aint getting u or the poor dog anywhere. Also as good as books are, and i think i said it before in this case i dont think its the right approach maybe when the trainer and u have started work with him then maybe work with both.
Hopefully things will get sorted as i imagine it cant be a great situation the way things are at the moment. hopefully he can be worked with

votejohn

samsonite wrote: »

I feel so sorry for him because I know he doesn't want to be a bold dog, it's the only way he knows. He is scared of everything, traffic, noises, he stops dead when he sees people walking on the pavement. u.

Unlikely, but he's not going blind / deaf, is he? If he is scared of everything it might be because he can no longer see / hear properly, and he doesnt know if he is safe or under threat as he doesnt have the full use of his senses.

Whispered

samsonite wrote: »

I will definitely look into crate training - will this work for him, he does appear insecure but he loves people and being beside people and i don't know if he will appreciate being separated especially with our other dog being free??

.

I never thought of your other dog being free, and he might not appreciate it at all. At the end of the day, you need to make sure your guests are not bitten and that the dog feels safe. It's really up to you how you do that.

Crates work for me with every dog I've had in the house, including older fosters. I think if you can train him to a crate slowly& make it a good thing he wont have too much of a problem. (eg have a treat that lasts a while, like a frozen kong that he only ever gets in the crate)

I'm aware I'm pushing the crating a bit, it worked for me, thats not to say it will for you and it might not be a road you want to go down.

Magenta

OP I really feel for you on this, you really have a lot to think about.
Do you know much of Billy's background before you got him? Was he a rescue?
If he was, I am wondering how his previous owners treated him, and if it could have caused him to have underlying trust issues with humans.
A friend of mine rescued a dog who had been beaten with a sweeping brush. He was terrified of them for the rest of his life, you couldn't sweep the floor if he was in the room. However that was his only 'trigger" so it was easier to manage- he just had to be kept away from sweeping brushes.

The Sweeper

Samsonite, return to a behaviouralist. You say that when you take your dog for a walk, he lies down in the field and won't budge. That can be dominant behaviour - it's a refusal to do things your way.

A relative of mine has a jack russell cross who is simply the single most belligerent dog I have ever met in my entire life. Thank God he's not bigger. He stands about knee height. He bites. Despite being neutered, he dry humps anything he can find. He is food aggressive. He can never be allowed off the lead as he simply won't return. He has to be muzzled at the vet.

His body language is so pronounced!! He freezes, stiffens, strips his teeth slowly, bristles, goes still - some, all or none of these can happen before he bites.

For a period of time, the dog was in my life a lot. My first response with him was to try and outrank him, as it were - but honestly I didn't have the energy. This was a dog that you simply could not dominate. He alternated between bullying you, and rolling over in front of your feet submissively (and I'm not kidding when I say he would strip his teeth if you went to touch him when he was on his back!!) One day when the weather was bad I was trying to get him onto the back deck of the house (he runs around the garden barking hysterically in high wind) and he went baldheaded for me. At the time, with the storm coming in, I was trying to lock up various animals - and the house - and when he bit me I lost my temper and turned the garden hose on him. Not a good response. Now he's passive aggressive dominant obstructive savage dog, who's mortally afraid of the garden hose.

Basically, my approach was all wrong with that dog. In order to get him onside, I had to befriend him. (Have you any idea how difficult it is to be friends with an obnxious little bollix of a dog like that???) The dog never got praised in his life because during his entire interaction with people every day, he was the devil himself.

So one day I took out a handful of treats (cooked chicken, sausage and cheese). And we stood on the back deck and did sit, treat, lie down, treat, sit, treat. Now I had his attention. Then we did leave it, treat. Took him three goes. Go to bed, treat. Three goes. Stay, now come, treat. Three goes.

Quick study? Smartest bloody dog I ever met. Using the vow to never admonish him again, I was able to work with him so he would never attack the chickens he shared the property with again. (He tried to savage two of them previously.) Recall improved. By making him sit on his bed until I had opened various gates, I improved the situation where previously he'd barrell through the gate ahead of whoever was opening it, and savage the first thing he saw on the other side of the gate.

He was still himself - very much himself - but he made me realise there is always hope. The upshot is, I don't own him, and subsequently I don't live with him any more and can't give him daily consistent commands. However, he did teach me that if something isn't working, it's me, it's not the dog.

If your dog were mine, I'd take advice on here re crate training, and I'd look at how I react to the dog. Starting tomorrow, I'd completely change things that I just know aren't working. I'd also look at some activity with the dog that builds trust and a bond - agility training, or a fetch type game. I'd do it under the supervision of a behaviouralist, because to be honest the mistakes you make yourself can be so simple, but you don't see them.

My neighbour here has a couple of border collies. They behave reasonably well but she doesn't realise all of her commands sound the same. "Rosie! Leave it! Leave it! Rosie, come here! Come! Sit! Good dog!" - these are all delivered in the tone of a parade ground sargeant (if not quite the volume). As the dogs get older they're beginning to ignore her commands, I think the same way kids of parents who bawl at them all the time appear oblivious to being bawled at.

I think a behaviouralist needs to have another look, but before you take one on, set an agenda yourself. It's fine saying "fix my dog", but it might be better if you work out a few things yourself that you're going to show the behaviouralist, and then they can comment on your interaction with your dog.

samsonite

The Sweeper: thank you so much for your post, it's great to hear from somebody who helped change a dogs behaviour.

I think the problem with our behaviourist was he didn't specialise in aggression so any recommendations for a specialist in this area would be great. I've had two so far but unfortunately one was in Donegal and the other are booked out for a couple of months.

Helena, I am definitely going to look into crate training

Thank you all again, I really don't know what I would do without this forum.:)

Billy was a rescue, don't know much about his background other than he was kept outside all the time.

TooManyDogs

Siobhan from Dublin Pet School is a behaviourist and I know deals with aggressive cases, maybe give her a go?

I think The Sweeper has hit on a really good point, maybe your dog for some reason doesn't trust you yet. If that's the case then doing alot of basic training could make a massive difference, like sit, stay, lie-down, any tricks you can think of to teach him. If he's working for you doing easy things and getting good reward for it it will make a big difference when you try to do other things like get him in and out of the car etc. I'd still keep him away from visitors until he's further down the line, and then only work with visitors you can trust to do exactly as you say.

Shammy

i agree also with sweepers points , also wasnt you relative leaning over the dog when rubing him , which to a dog can also be dominance and he wasnt allowing himself to be dominated by her.
Dont put the dog down just get more help .
Good luck

samsonite

Thank you I will contact Siobhan and definitely start Billy with the basic commands, as I said before he is a quick learner so hopefully that means he can change.

If only dogs could communicate their insecurities with us but I suppose it's a matter of understanding the way they communicate and understanding their needs.

Thanks again to everybody and I will let you know how we get on.

Keep your fingers for us please.

Magenta

samsonite wrote: »

Billy was a rescue, don't know much about his background other than he was kept outside all the time.

I have to say that I would not be surprised if his past owner physically abused him. To most dogs, being touched by a person is a very good thing but to Billy it seems to be something to be afraid of. Some people will treat an animal like that for no apparent reason- for example, they come home and the dog has soiled the carpet hours earlier, they punish the dog and the dog has no idea why so he thinks humans are unpredictable and will hurt him for no reason.
This could explain why Billy was so unpredictable when he bit you.

This is just my opinion, I could be completely wrong.

junkyard

Just put him in a different room when you have visitors, keep him on a lead when he's out(dogs shouldn't be loose on the roads anyway) or even consider a mussel for him if he's out (on a lead) I certainly wouldn't put any dog to sleep unless he/she was a threat to its owner. A bit of common sense really I think.

Mr. Presentable

junkyard wrote: »

Just put him in a different room when you have visitors, keep him on a lead when he's out(dogs shouldn't be loose on the roads anyway) or even consider a mussel for him if he's out (on a lead) I certainly wouldn't put any dog to sleep unless he/she was a threat to its owner. A bit of common sense really I think.

The trouble is, he has bitten his owner more than once...