Why do people hate/dislike Enda Kenny/Eamon Gilmore so much?

brianthebard

Joey the lips wrote: »

Fair point. But martain mcguinness is not in govt down here and i tend to listen to what he says because he is blunt.

btw. I read all there policies on there websites. I know I need to get out more.

Fair enough that was a general statement and not directed at you personally. However your comparison of nationalisation to NAMA is incorrect, nationalisation would still be for the purpose of making a profit, but would cost considerably less than NAMA and would involve the Irish taxpayer actually having assets to use for itself, unlike NAMA which appears to be designed for the sole purpose of keeping bankers in overpaid jobs.

WoollyRedHat

donegalfella wrote: »

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Except we're not in 1940 and in need of a Winston Churchill type person. Enda Kenny is a good manager, I don't care if he isn't Obama, I'd prefer substance to style any day. Do we really want another Bertie. I want someone who has a vision for Ireland. Like people have said, the opposition deserve a chance, Fianna Fail need to go.

I think bottom line is some people will always be against Enda Kenny. If he were to become taoiseach tomorrow and get the country back on track, despite he not being obama-esque, would people still find him unfavourable. I think Bruton would be best as finance, not Taoiseach. That's my opinion anyway.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

thebigcheese22

brianthebard wrote: »

Fair enough that was a general statement and not directed at you personally. However your comparison of nationalisation to NAMA is incorrect, nationalisation would still be for the purpose of making a profit, but would cost considerably less than NAMA and would involve the Irish taxpayer actually having assets to use for itself, unlike NAMA which appears to be designed for the sole purpose of keeping bankers in overpaid jobs.

Too true. Plus temp nationalisation has the added benefit of clearly determining the value of all the toxic loans, something which NAMA will not do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, NAMA is a bastardised version of socialism - the tax-payer takes all the risk, and none of the benefit.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I do know where you're coming from, but surely the only litmus test for the Opposition is to be put into Government? Our parliment is so weak, and the executive so strong in this country, that the Opposition are powerless.

johnnyskeleton

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Hello, as you may or may not have noticed, my interest in Politics is largely reliant on some attachment it has to Economics. So, while I know who the main faces of each party are, I really know very little about them personally. People seem to be making many broad comments about Enda Kenny (and Gilmore), saying that he is unfit as a leader, without ever dealing in specifics. Perhaps the reasons why are common knowledge, in which case I much plead ignorance. So, could people tell me why it is the leader of both FG and Labour are so very unfit to lead?

This is a genuine question, so I guess on behalf of the mods may I say I'm not looking for an exercise such as "XXX is a XXX and a XXing XX". I'm looking for constructive criticism that relates to their ability to lead.

Good leadership of a political party and good leadership of the country are two very different things. Enda is a great leader of FG according to those in FG, because he unites all the diverse strands within the party and makes it a coherent party going to the electorate. However, good leadership often means making decisions which are policially damaging but good for the country.

During the debate over the bank guarantee, which has now proved to be the single biggest mistake of the FF government, FG spent hours blaming FF for the mess that was made before voting for the bank guarantee without significant amendment as regards bondholders or even past debts. If they had done their job properly i.e. Enda Kenny calling the party to vote against the bank guarantee, they might have saved the country millions. However, at that time he judged it better to simply make scathing attacks on the government and vote for the provision because this was the politically astute thing to do. However, it was very bad governance.

During the Lisbon campaign, no real leadership was shown by either of them as to the specifics of why we should vote yes other than the "yes for jobs" slogans etc. This shows that they treat the people like children, not like citizens.

During the NAMA vote Enda didn't show up because he was doing "constituency work" i.e .trying to get re-elected.

Both Kenny and Gilmore have not provided any coherent policy or stragey as regards how they would run the country, in particular as to how they would address the ballooning deficit without cutting jobs or social welfare. Again, no leadership because they simply avoid the issues.

Finally, I suspect that FG/Labour have decided not to try to have an election in the short term so that FF can be given enough rope to hang themselves. Their parties have too often had to pick up the pieces after FF only to lose popularity for doing so. This is pure policial self-preservation and reflects badly on them as leaders.

That said, they are better than Cowen who has shown, in addition to all the above characteristics, that he does not understand what is going on nor did he understand it while he was minister for finance.

In short, the country is devoid of any real leadership, but that is probably because people don't vote for leaders, they vote for whichever politician will promise them the most local favours. If we want leadership we have to vote for it, and that means filling FG with more Brutons & Lees, FF with more BLs and Labour with, well hopefully they'll find someone.

Taxipete29

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Good leadership of a political party and good leadership of the country are two very different things. Enda is a great leader of FG according to those in FG, because he unites all the diverse strands within the party and makes it a coherent party going to the electorate. However, good leadership often means making decisions which are policially damaging but good for the country.

During the debate over the bank guarantee, which has now proved to be the single biggest mistake of the FF government, FG spent hours blaming FF for the mess that was made before voting for the bank guarantee without significant amendment as regards bondholders or even past debts. If they had done their job properly i.e. Enda Kenny calling the party to vote against the bank guarantee, they might have saved the country millions. However, at that time he judged it better to simply make scathing attacks on the government and vote for the provision because this was the politically astute thing to do. However, it was very bad governance.

During the Lisbon campaign, no real leadership was shown by either of them as to the specifics of why we should vote yes other than the "yes for jobs" slogans etc. This shows that they treat the people like children, not like citizens.

During the NAMA vote Enda didn't show up because he was doing "constituency work" i.e .trying to get re-elected.

Both Kenny and Gilmore have not provided any coherent policy or stragey as regards how they would run the country, in particular as to how they would address the ballooning deficit without cutting jobs or social welfare. Again, no leadership because they simply avoid the issues.

Finally, I suspect that FG/Labour have decided not to try to have an election in the short term so that FF can be given enough rope to hang themselves. Their parties have too often had to pick up the pieces after FF only to lose popularity for doing so. This is pure policial self-preservation and reflects badly on them as leaders.

That said, they are better than Cowen who has shown, in addition to all the above characteristics, that he does not understand what is going on nor did he understand it while he was minister for finance.

In short, the country is devoid of any real leadership, but that is probably because people don't vote for leaders, they vote for whichever politician will promise them the most local favours. If we want leadership we have to vote for it, and that means filling FG with more Brutons & Lees, FF with more BLs and Labour with, well hopefully they'll find someone.

Can you please explain to me how the opposition are supposed to force an election when the Govt are unwilling to step down??

FF are going nowhere, the Greens have no desire to face the electorate any time soon. What can FG and Labour do???

What do people on this forum think that an opposition party should be doing??

johnnyskeleton

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Can you please explain to me how the opposition are supposed to force an election when the Govt are unwilling to step down??

By advocacy; creating enough dissent in the FF backbench so that they lose a vote and a subsequent vote of no confidence. That is the traditional way in which a parliamentary government is brought down.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

FF are going nowhere, the Greens have no desire to face the electorate any time soon. What can FG and Labour do???

Be leaders. Have a manifesto. Provide an alternative form of government to FF. Encourage independents, FF backbenchers and the Greens to vote against the government. Pretty much anything other than sit there and claim their large paycheques.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

What do people on this forum think that an opposition party should be doing??

I can't speak for everyone else, but surely they should be opposing the government whenever the government does wrong, insead of just trying to get re-elected?

walrusgumble

Joey the lips wrote: »

Having read the thread i think i can make it simple.

.Although I am shuddering to say it. They need someone like leo vadakker to lead them. Someone that says i can run a country. Not I I I I I .

its a government (constitution provides that government is based on collective responsibiliy) we want not a dictator. we had haughey. we need more than just a leader. i normally despise fine gael (and fianna fail) and not fond of kenny no matter how nice or trust worthy he may be but if kenny can run, as wel as he does his party, an efficent, cohesive, united and progressive government, he will do well and and may do a job, in spite of himeself

Taxipete29

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

By advocacy; creating enough dissent in the FF backbench so that they lose a vote and a subsequent vote of no confidence. That is the traditional way in which a parliamentary government is brought down.



Be leaders. Have a manifesto. Provide an alternative form of government to FF. Encourage independents, FF backbenchers and the Greens to vote against the government. Pretty much anything other than sit there and claim their large paycheques.



I can't speak for everyone else, but surely they should be opposing the government whenever the government does wrong, insead of just trying to get re-elected?

The oppostion have made many calls for both the Greens and FF backbenchers to vote against the Govt. It hasnt worked. There is too much fear in the Govt ranks they will not be re-elected.

The opposition have opposed almost every Govt intiative with the exception of FG and the bank guarantee. I really dont understand what people expect the opposition to do. The whip system insures the Govt always have a majority and even with some descenters in the ranks they are still holding firm.

Both Labour and FG have policies which are freely available on their websites. Bills are regularly introduced by both and are defeated just as quick because they dont have the numbers. Research your topic before you make sweeping statements about them not doing anything.

johnnyskeleton

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The oppostion have made many calls for both the Greens and FF backbenchers to vote against the Govt. It hasnt worked. There is too much fear in the Govt ranks they will not be re-elected.

Exactly - all they do is call for the Greens and FF backbenchers to vote against the government, usually with a solid dose of partisan rhetoric thrown in. There is little in the way of presenting a viable alternative to the government.

For example, RB's speech on the budget was an attack on the small cuts taken by government ministers and talk about FF squandering the boom with the main emphasis being on the lack of a job creation strategy. No talk of axeing the quangoes, reducing the massive public sector, cutting MW and SW to regain competitiveness and allowing the banks to fail. If you want to create jobs, you have to make this kind of tough decision. But there is no such "vision of how Ireland could be different" under FG.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The opposition have opposed almost every Govt intiative with the exception of FG and the bank guarantee. I really dont understand what people expect the opposition to do. The whip system insures the Govt always have a majority and even with some descenters in the ranks they are still holding firm.

Notionally they opposed them. FG's opposition of NAMA was incredibly weak and EK didn't even show up for the vote. The government parties have been whittled down to the narrowest of majorities, so if they got the greens, a few rebel backbenchers or independents to break away from the government they could collapse the government. However, none of the above are going to ditch FF without a good reason to do so. FG aren't giving them such reasons. Why aren't they trying to poach the more right of centre backbenchers over to FG? Why instead of alienating the Green Party can they not try to encourage the Greens to join them in a three party coalition?

If they really, really wanted to collapse the government they could obtain a petition from several hundred thousand voters and petition the president to dissolve the dail. Even if she said no, it would put massive pressure on FF.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Both Labour and FG have policies which are freely available on their websites. Bills are regularly introduced by both and are defeated just as quick because they dont have the numbers. Research your topic before you make sweeping statements about them not doing anything.

You've said nothing that I don't already know; the difference between us is that you seem happy to accept that FG/Labour are doing everything possible to try to lead the country away from FF, whereas I see them as taking the back seat, notionally opposing the government but not really trying to bring down the government. The reason why they do this is that they want FF to hang themselves so that come 2012 FF will be hugely unpopular but the economy will be in a position for FG to take advantage of the upswing they think will happen around then. The alternative is that they have an election now, spend the next 5 years fixing the economy (becoming hugely unpopular in the process) and lose the following election to FF who will claim that the good times are back again.

The topic of this thread is why people dislike EK & EG (and to a lesser extent the rest of FG/Lab), not the specific policies of either party. I think your comment about doing research is a poor attempt to undermine my argument without actually saying anything specific. However, if you want to discuss the specifics of either party's policies or private members bills you're welcome to start a new thread on same.

Mario007

From reading this thread so far i can deduce that people usually dislike Kenny because of his lack of charisma. I don't necessary buy that to be honest. When listening to Kenny speak you might think his monotone voice is not a great sign of leadership but once you listen to the man you must notice that he is very bright and intelligent. In fact with FG under Kenny it is more about the team that he put together than about Kenny himself. Further his leadership qualities cannot be questioned as he has never had a bad election after being elected to lead FG and achieves every target that he sets out before the elections.

Taxipete29

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Exactly - all they do is call for the Greens and FF backbenchers to vote against the government, usually with a solid dose of partisan rhetoric thrown in. There is little in the way of presenting a viable alternative to the government.

For example, RB's speech on the budget was an attack on the small cuts taken by government ministers and talk about FF squandering the boom with the main emphasis being on the lack of a job creation strategy. No talk of axeing the quangoes, reducing the massive public sector, cutting MW and SW to regain competitiveness and allowing the banks to fail. If you want to create jobs, you have to make this kind of tough decision. But there is no such "vision of how Ireland could be different" under FG.



Notionally they opposed them. FG's opposition of NAMA was incredibly weak and EK didn't even show up for the vote. The government parties have been whittled down to the narrowest of majorities, so if they got the greens, a few rebel backbenchers or independents to break away from the government they could collapse the government. However, none of the above are going to ditch FF without a good reason to do so. FG aren't giving them such reasons. Why aren't they trying to poach the more right of centre backbenchers over to FG? Why instead of alienating the Green Party can they not try to encourage the Greens to join them in a three party coalition?

If they really, really wanted to collapse the government they could obtain a petition from several hundred thousand voters and petition the president to dissolve the dail. Even if she said no, it would put massive pressure on FF.



You've said nothing that I don't already know; the difference between us is that you seem happy to accept that FG/Labour are doing everything possible to try to lead the country away from FF, whereas I see them as taking the back seat, notionally opposing the government but not really trying to bring down the government. The reason why they do this is that they want FF to hang themselves so that come 2012 FF will be hugely unpopular but the economy will be in a position for FG to take advantage of the upswing they think will happen around then. The alternative is that they have an election now, spend the next 5 years fixing the economy (becoming hugely unpopular in the process) and lose the following election to FF who will claim that the good times are back again.

The topic of this thread is why people dislike EK & EG (and to a lesser extent the rest of FG/Lab), not the specific policies of either party. I think your comment about doing research is a poor attempt to undermine my argument without actually saying anything specific. However, if you want to discuss the specifics of either party's policies or private members bills you're welcome to start a new thread on same.

I think you are failing to grasp the realities of being in opposition. FG and Labour would be elected into Govt if the election were held tomorrow. The Green party members decide if they pull out of Govt, not the TDs. They have spoken already.

Well to get it back on topic then, people actually do like Eamonn Gilmore. He is the most popular party leader in the country.

With Enda Kenny, it does come down to the fact that he is not charismatic enough. Brian Cowen wasnt elected Taoiseach by the people and I wonder if FF would of done so well had he been at the helm last time around as opposed to Bertie.

Mario007

Taxipete29 wrote: »

With Enda Kenny, it does come down to the fact that he is not charismatic enough.Brian Cowen wasnt elected Taoiseach by the people and I wonder if FF would of done so well had he been at the helm last time around as opposed to Bertie.

oh come enough of that populist talk...the people dont elect the taoiseach...the people elect their deputies who elect the taoiseach...so lets not go down that road

Taxipete29

Mario007 wrote: »

oh come enough of that populist talk...the people dont elect the taoiseach...the people elect their deputies who elect the taoiseach...so lets not go down that road

How the hell is that populist talk?? Its true. When people voted in FF 3 times in 12 years, it was with Bertie at the helm. The electorate know what their expected outcome is when they cast their vote.

If I vote Labour its in the hope they will be in Govt with Eamonn Gilmore as Taoiseach( we can all dream) or in Govt with FG. Why do you think the Greens were decimated at the locals?? People didnt vote for them to go into Govt with FF.

The fact that TDs have the power to vote for whoever they want for Taoiseach means nothing. Has anyone ever broken party ranks during a vote for Taoiseach????

johnnyskeleton

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I think you are failing to grasp the realities of being in opposition.

I think the same of you; you seem to accept what FG/Labour do without question. But let's not trade insults eh?

Taxipete29 wrote: »

FG and Labour would be elected into Govt if the election were held tomorrow.

Probably, but that is not their plan.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The Green party members decide if they pull out of Govt, not the TDs. They have spoken already.

Did I say otherwise?

Taxipete29 wrote: »

With Enda Kenny, it does come down to the fact that he is not charismatic enough.

I don't think that's the case. I think he has failed on a number of occasions to stand up to the government. I think he also fails to present a vision of a viable alternative to FF. I don't think that these failings can be put down to something as intangible as him simply lacking charisma. Put another way, the difference between Kenny and Bruton is not due to charisma (if anything, Kenny is probably more charismatic) but is due to the substance of what they say. That's why I think Bruton would be a better leader for FG.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Brian Cowen wasnt elected Taoiseach by the people

No, but as previously said he was voted in as TD and became Taoiseach as leader of FF. I disagree with your views on the electorate voting for the leader instead of the party, as it is my view that most Irish voters will decide who to vote for on local rather than national politics when it comes to general elections. For example, Jacky Healy-Rae TD voters are probably not overly concerned about what national policies he advocates and are more concerned about what he will do for their constituence.

The fact that you vote for your local Labour candidate because you want Eamon Gilmore to be Taoiseach (I assume EG is not your local candidate) does not mean that everyone else votes for the same reason.

LookBehindYou

I will not vote for any personality, or bull****ters.

I will vote for someone who will take unpopular decisions to get the country back on track again.

If they are serious, they will start with cutting their own pay and lavish expences, getting rid of any of the (jobs for the boys types)

Mario007

Taxipete29 wrote: »

How the hell is that populist talk?? Its true. When people voted in FF 3 times in 12 years, it was with Bertie at the helm. The electorate know what their expected outcome is when they cast their vote.

If I vote Labour its in the hope they will be in Govt with Eamonn Gilmore as Taoiseach( we can all dream) or in Govt with FG. Why do you think the Greens were decimated at the locals?? People didnt vote for them to go into Govt with FF.

The fact that TDs have the power to vote for whoever they want for Taoiseach means nothing. Has anyone ever broken party ranks during a vote for Taoiseach????

no the TDs didnt break their ranks but in Ireland we have a PR system, ie you vote for the person to represent you. you don't directly vote for that and that person to be the Taoiseach.
the classical example is bruton back in the 90s when FF lost the majority support and suddenly you cannot argue that people voted Reynolds in as the Taoiseach since it was the Dail that did so and he lost the Dail's support thus he was replaced by bruton

Taxipete29

Mario007 wrote: »

no the TDs didnt break their ranks but in Ireland we have a PR system, ie you vote for the person to represent you. you don't directly vote for that and that person to be the Taoiseach.
the classical example is bruton back in the 90s when FF lost the majority support and suddenly you cannot argue that people voted Reynolds in as the Taoiseach since it was the Dail that did so and he lost the Dail's support thus he was replaced by bruton

Look if you dont see that when people vote they have a very good expectation of who will be Taoiseach there really is no point in continuing this discussion.

If people arent voting with a Taoiseach in mind why would it matter what people think of party leaders??

Spiritoftheseventies

Is this another attempt to rehabilate the ffers suggesting they are more likeable than Kenny and Gilmore. Forget it!

mickoneill30

Personally I don't hate any person in Irish politics. I do dislike Kenny & Gilmore though. There are plenty of opportunities to show leadership but these two just seem to be attempting to point score a lot of the time. It's like a knee jerk reaction to the government. The government says / does one thing and the opposition opposes even if the government is doing something good.
This country is in a lot of ****e (a lot of it because of Fianna Fail) and we need some hard work and major changes. When the opposition trot out "it attacks the vulnerable" nearly as a party line it just doesn't inspire me to vote for them.

If we had a political party that was capable of making hard unpopular decisions for the good of the country rather than the good of the party I think a lot of people would vote for them. If we had a party like that over the last few years we wouldn't be in the crap right now, although unfortunatly a lot of the electorate seem to be dazzled by the political promises and point scoring on both sides.

Spiritoftheseventies

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Personally I don't hate any person in Irish politics. I do dislike Kenny & Gilmore though. There are plenty of opportunities to show leadership but these two just seem to be attempting to point score a lot of the time. It's like a knee jerk reaction to the government. The government says / does one thing and the opposition opposes even if the government is doing something good.
This country is in a lot of ****e (a lot of it because of Fianna Fail) and we need some hard work and major changes. When the opposition trot out "it attacks the vulnerable" nearly as a party line it just doesn't inspire me to vote for them.

If we had a political party that was capable of making hard unpopular decisions for the good of the country rather than the good of the party I think a lot of people would vote for them. If we had a party like that over the last few years we wouldn't be in the crap right now.

Yes just hate the way some politicians operate in this country. Hanafin threats to cut the lone parent allowance but praises working parents in the same sentence. A very clever if cynical ploy.
I think there are good people working in the opposition but by honing in on Kenny and Gilmore we threaten to undermine our chances of getting in a new government.

femur61

Enda just doesn't have the X factor. Even though I will vote for him not because I have an affiliation to FG, but because I do think the man has integratey.

This country is still ruled by tradition and some people will not change even though the conutry has been let go "up the swany".

Spiritoftheseventies

femur61 wrote: »

Enda just doesn't have the X factor. Even though I will vote for him not because I have an affiliation to FG, but because I do think the man has integratey.

This country is still ruled by tradition and some people will not change even though the conutry has been let go "up the swany".

Yes remember seeing a poster of him and it was just to airbrushed for my liking. I think he will lead the next government but Richard Bruton the heir apparent.

femur61

Richard Bruton would be more presentable as leader and also much more articulate.

Spiritoftheseventies

femur61 wrote: »

Richard Bruton would be more presentable as leader and also much more articulate.

Yes was very impressed with the speech he gave on budget day.

Pride Fighter

femur61 wrote: »

Enda just doesn't have the X factor. Even though I will vote for him not because I have an affiliation to FG, but because I do think the man has integratey.

This country is still ruled by tradition and some people will not change even though the conutry has been let go "up the swany".

Yes it is and you are continuing the tradition by voting for FG. Civil war politics will continue here unless people stop voting for FF or FG.