Three more years of "It was Bush's fault?"

Pocono Joe

It seems every misstep, blunder, and error committed by the Obama administration for the past 11 months, is a direct result of the GW Bush administration, according to the current POTUS.

As an example... On Sunday, Janet Napolitano (Director of Homeland Security) said, "One thing I'd like to point out is that the system worked" regarding Abdulmutallab’s attempt to destroy a Northwest flight on Christmas Day.

But nobody with half a brain believed it.

And today she backtracked and said "Our system did not work in this instance," on NBC's "Today" show, but repeatedly mentioned that the security procedures in place were formulated under the Bush administration.

So... anyone else here getting sick and tired of this intellectually dishonest rubbish from the Obama administration? At what point will the “It’s Bush’s Fault” dogma not hold water, or have the American people finally wised up to these lies, as evident by Obama’s dreadful approval ratings?

sceptre

A few more examples might help your case. A single swallow does not a summer make. Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't, but providing one single example is almost useless to me. Five or six should be a reasonable number.

I'm assuming you're implying that the previous administration weren't in the habit of blaming their predecessors either? Were they?

Pocono Joe

sceptre wrote: »

A few more examples might help your case. A single swallow does not a summer make. Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't, but providing one single example is almost useless to me. Five or six should be a reasonable number.

I'm assuming you're implying that the previous administration weren't in the habit of blaming their predecessors either? Were they?

Well... the economy, climate change (global warming), the credit crisis, Afghanistan, the Middle East stalemate, the deficit, anti-Americanism abroad, his inability to close Guantanamo and what to do with its detainees.

Here is a question for you. Name me one problem or crisis that the Obama administration faces in which he hasn't blamed George W Bush for? Maybe he should appoint GW Bush as his Blame Czar. The word 'inherited' has replaced 'hope' and 'change' in the Obama lexicon.

And yes Bush tried with Clinton… but nobody listened, becasue it was decided when he came into office, the problems where his.

sceptre

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Well... the economy, climate change (global warming), the credit crisis, Afghanistan, the Middle East stalemate, the deficit, anti-Americanism abroad, his inability to close Guantanamo and what to do with its detainees.

Cool. Now give me a source for all of those if you don't mind.

Here is a question for you. Name me one problem or crisis that the Obama administration faces in which he hasn't blamed George W Bush for?

Does health care work for you? It was the first result on the list when i googled for obama crisis. It isn't on your list.

Maybe he should appoint GW Bush as his Blame Czar.

I don't think that's a cabinet position. And if it was I would hope that he can find better. Obviously you don't like Obama but Bush was almost universally regarded as an idiot.

The word 'inherited' has replaced 'hope' and 'change' in the Obama lexicon.

I doubt that. Can you show me where and how often as some sort of evidence rather than a vague statement that you can't support?

And yes Bush tried with Clinton… but nobody listened, becasue it was decided when he came into office, the problems where his.

So basically what you say Obama is doing is something that Bush did too. So is your problem really with the people that you reckon decided something one way last time and another this time? Are these the public? The media? Someone else? If they're the actual difference between the first year of Bush and the first year of Obama, given that the treatment of the previous administration is the same according to your good self, who are these people?

(really, there should probably be a monthly maximum non-substantiated assertion allowance or something)

Pocono Joe

Wow sceptre, you have given me quite a bit of homework . I will work on it.

A question for this though:

sceptre wrote: »

Cool. Now give me a source for all of those if you don't mind.

Will quotes (which can easily be googled) such as “the long years of drift” in regards to his Afghanistan problems, or on a recent overseas trip stating "shown arrogance" and been "dismissive, even derisive," and "lowered our standing in the world," in regards to the Middle East stalemate and anti-Americanism abroad, or his statement "George Bush didn't believe in climate change," or "We are cleaning up something that is -- quite simply -- a mess" in regards to Guantanamo and the detainees suffice, or do you want sources for each. I will get them if you so wish, but please bear with me as it might take me a little while.

(and when haven't I provided sources for my assertions, or as I prefer to call them... opinions, when asked?... really!)

Pocono Joe

sceptre wrote: »

Does health care work for you? It was the first result on the list when i googled for obama crisis. It isn't on your list.

I disagree... In his speech to a joint session of Congress about health care reform, he stated "I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are." To me this was a shot and blame tactic aimed at the Bush administration and Republicans.

sceptre

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I will get them if you so wish, but please bear with me as it might take me a little while.

That'd be cool. It's your case to make so feel free to make it.

(and when haven't I provided sources for my assertions, or as I prefer to call them... opinions, when asked?... really!)

I'll form my opinion on that based partly on the above, as well as figuring out whether the word "inherited" has replaced either "hope" or "changed" in the Obama lexicon. It's an ongoing thing. Perhaps no-one's asked you to back up the assertions in a while, perhaps it's become regarded as acceptable in general through use on the US Politics forum and I note that you're not the only one, though I would say the chief culprit and I'm demonstrably stating that as opinion. Assume there will be requests. There will be.

It'd still be cool if I knew who these people were that I referred to in my last paragraph above, given that these appear to be the difference. Given that the behaviour of both administrations seems to be the same, everything else for discussion is effectively a sideshow given that the central premise of the thread is that the Obama administration are ostensibly doing something different. That's the central assertion of the entire thread and obviously the one that actually needs the backup, despite my interpretation of what you said as admitting that the administration are effectively doing the same. It's an inconvenient interpretation for the lifespan of the useful discussion.

sceptre

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I disagree... In his speech to a joint session of Congress about health care reform, he stated "I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are." To me this was a shot and blame tactic aimed at the Bush administration and Republicans.

You're reaching. No. Unless you can demonstrate that the special interests are the GOP. Pulling your view that there's an implicit blame tactic at Bush, his friends and his party doesn't even come close.

I can give you another example if you like while you're demonstrating the above as an opportunity to back up an assertion.

Example is the education system and the need for more US college graduates, as identified in his first joint session with congress earlier this year. It's also the next item on the google return list that isn't already on your list (actually, Israel is but I'm reasonably regarding that as part of the middle east item which you're already looking into). GIven that I'm strictly following the list in order, you'll have the advantage over me as I'm only picking up the next itemn as required - you can plan ahead.

Pocono Joe

sceptre wrote: »

I doubt that. Can you show me where and how often as some sort of evidence rather than a vague statement that you can't support?

This was something I read and agreed with from a former white house official.

When I mentioned the bad blood to a former Bush aide -- the one who accused Team Obama of being "gratuitous, slightly petty, and slightly obsessive" -- I got a long and impassioned speech. "It's becoming tiresome," the former official said. "A surprising lack of grace on his part…a surprising degree of whining and finger-pointing…it's not unusual for a president of another party to lay some blame and responsibility on a previous administration, but he's overdoing it…the word 'inherited' has replaced 'hope' and 'change' in the Obama lexicon…if he didn't want to inherit challenges, then he should reflect on the nature of the office."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/The-Escalating-War-Between-Obama-and-Bush-42936062

LostinKildare

Ah, the latest talking point. Bush's supporters are in such denial about his disastrous regime that they've marched out their talking heads to make the breathtaking assertion that 9/11 didn't happen on his watch. From yesterday's Think Progress (with loads of source links):

On CNN today, GOP strategist and former Dick Cheney adviser Mary Matalin argued that President Obama is speaking too much about the severe debt, deficits, and economic recession he inherited from the previous administration. Defending her former boss, Matalin charged that President Bush had in fact “inherited a recession” and the September 11th attacks from President Clinton:

MATALIN: I was there, we inherited a recession from President Clinton and we inherited the most tragic attack on our own soil in our nation’s history. And President Bush dealt with it and within a year of his presidency within a comparable time, unemployment was at 5 percent.

In reality, the terror attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center occurred on Sept. 11, 2001 — eight months into President Bush’s first term. Also, the 2001 recession technically began in March of 2001, well after Bush assumed office. Last month, former Bush administration spokesperson Dana Perino claimed that “we did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush’s term.” Former Bush administration officials seem intent on misrepresenting history to pretend that the country never suffered its worst terror attack in history under Bush’s watch. It’s a peculiar talking point, even considering the other efforts to whitewash Bush’s disastrous record.

sceptre

Pocono Joe wrote: »

This was something I read and agreed with from a former white house official.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/The-Escalating-War-Between-Obama-and-Bush-42936062

Your link doesn't work but don't worry about that, I'm sure it's a session thing, I'll happily accept the quoted section as being what's there. So basically it's an opinion offered by a former Bush aide? That's cool but you've repeated it like it's some sort of fact, not someone else's opinion with which you agree. That it's from an aide that was employed by the opposition is immaterial to me (though others are likely to place significance to it). It's opinion. Not yours originally, someone else's. I do some journalism, despite my former and current college degree programmes being in fields that have nothing to do with it. Attribute your sources. When they're opinion, state them as such if there's any implication that they're fact. When they're someone else's material it's doubly nice to do so, though that's the opinion writer rather than former law student speaking. Either way, has X replaced Y and Z? Maybe it has. Maybe it hasn't. Apparently no-one's actually checked to see.

Now it's opinion, regardless of whose, I can just ignore it at my whim and move on. It's no longer an assertion. It's just opinon that hasn't been backed up. Although, that's still an assertion but let's not do the circular thing ad infinitum, I get dizzy easily.

Pocono Joe

Sceptre, first and foremost I want to make it perfectly clear that I am addressing your points as though you are a regular poster to this discussing and not someone acting as judge, jury and executioner (although I do realize what I post is subject to scrutiny by an individual serving in the capacity as the latter).

I'm assuming you're implying that the previous administration weren't in the habit of blaming their predecessors either? Were they?

No, It is my opinion that President Obama is utilizing the “Blame Bush” tactic ad nauseam, and that the American people are sick and tired of it. Or as Mark Hemingway, Commentary Staff Writer for the Washington Examiner so well put it: “It may not all be Obama's fault, but it is his responsibility. The Blame-Bush well ran dry the moment he was inaugurated. And of course this was the same President who said of the his critics back in August: “I don't mind being held responsible for these issues but I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I don't mind cleaning up the mess, but don't do a lot of talking.” If he doesn't mind cleaning up the mess, the president should heed his own advice and quit whining about having to do exactly that.” This opinion of mine (the premise of the topic) is substantiated by well respected US political journalists, of which I list a few below (if three is not enough I will find you more). It is also my opinion Barack Obama won the election based heavily on the “Blame Bush” tactic, and it is also my opinion that he won his Pulitzer Prize because he was “Not Bush.” I hope I have cleared up this point, of which you appeared to address in several subsequent postings.

Charles Krauthammer
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/10/30/its_time_for_obama_to_stop_blaming_bush.html
Fred Barnes
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/530gqheg.asp
Roland S. Martin
http://www.rolandsmartin.com/blog/?p=329

Obviously you don't like Obama but Bush was almost universally regarded as an idiot.

You are correct, I don't hold the Obama administration in high regard, do you? Also, are you stating that as fact regarding Bush? If so, please provide sources for me (because I’m sure if this is an opinion of yours, you would have stated so ).

Perhaps no-one's asked you to back up the assertions in a while, perhaps it's become regarded as acceptable in general through use on the US Politics forum and I note that you're not the only one, though I would say the chief culprit and I'm demonstrably stating that as opinion.

Duly noted, but with due respect… You’ve got to be kidding me! Do you read what other’s post here in the US Politics forum. I almost spit my coffee onto my keyboard when I read that. (Notice I didn’t say that I actually did spit my coffee onto my keyboard, because if I would have stated that, I would have been sure to remove the key with said coffee traces, and put it into an evidence bag for you to thoroughly test. ).
And I’m confident I will be seeing requests from you from other posters who pose statements without noting them as “opinion” . Also if you read my tag line, you will note that I address the “Opinion” quandary pretty well… in my opinion.

It'd still be cool if I knew who these people were that I referred to in my last paragraph above, given that these appear to be the difference.

Hmmm, I provide the information you request, and you go off on another tangent. Your request is reasonable, and well noted on your subsequent posting, and I will kindly oblige going forward, sorry (as you can see I already did above). So I realize I can’t win this one, no matter what, so I will consider it at an end.

You're reaching. No. Unless you can demonstrate that the special interests are the GOP. Pulling your view that there's an implicit blame tactic at Bush, his friends and his party doesn't even come close.

I may be reaching a bit, but it remains my opinion that his many attacks are aimed at Bush, and this was just another implied attack against him. Combine it with his lobbyist pledge (which turned out to be and empty promise on his part), and it was an attack against Bush and the GOP... in my opinion. It is also my opinion that the "Blame Bush" is the one thing that has worked well for him in his campaign, and he continues to utilize it any chance he gets... directly and indirectly.

Your link doesn't work but don't worry about that, I'm sure it's a session thing

Sorry about that. Here is the correct link. Please read it. It helps to substantiate my assertions.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/The-Escalating-War-Between-Obama-and-Bush-42936062.html

I do some journalism, despite my former and current college degree programmes being in fields that have nothing to do with it. …
…Either way, has X replaced Y and Z? Maybe it has. Maybe it hasn't. Apparently no-one's actually checked to see.

Do you write IBM manuals? (relax, I’m just kidding). I’m a simple man. Some of your posting I must admit goes over my head. Please be less abstract if you wish to illicit a response from me in the future.


I am still working on getting the quotes from the Obama administration to the eight points (it would have been better if I only listed five or six like you asked for ), and your other requests. I hopefully will have them by the end of the day here.

(Please note… when I use the “;)“, I’m just kidding or joking around with you. Please don’t take it as an attack against you (attacks should only be utilized against GW Bush ). )

sceptre

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Sceptre, first and foremost I want to make it perfectly clear that I am addressing your points as though you are a regular poster to this discussing

That's cool, you pretty much always can and should. It should be pretty obvious when I'm acting in the other capacity, usually I make it explicitly clear when:).

Probably won't have time to do a reply until Thursday, busy for a while I'm afraid.

Sand

In reality, the terror attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center occurred on Sept. 11, 2001 — eight months into President Bush’s first term. Also, the 2001 recession technically began in March of 2001, well after Bush assumed office. Last month, former Bush administration spokesperson Dana Perino claimed that “we did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush’s term.” Former Bush administration officials seem intent on misrepresenting history to pretend that the country never suffered its worst terror attack in history under Bush’s watch. It’s a peculiar talking point, even considering the other efforts to whitewash Bush’s disastrous record.

They are definitly misrepresenting reality in that the attack did happen when Bush was on watch. I think the point she might have been trying to make (badly) was the Al Queda and the open sore of Iraq didnt spring up the day after Bush took office, that they had to deal and cope with existing situations and enviroments they had no hand in creating and may have strongly disagreed with how they were dealt with previously.

Very few people would cut Bush any slack for mistakes or errors made as he suddenly had to take responsibility for cleaning up the errors of past regimes. Obama certainly didnt. He can hardly expect his political opponents to outdo him on statesmanship.

That said, thats the political motivation for taking digs at past and current regimes. Its to be hoped no one actually believe that Bush never made a mistake that couldnt be blamed on Clinton, or that Obama never made a mistake that couldnt be blamed on Bush.

EDIT: Thought who knows, maybe I am wrong and she has actually convinced herself there was no terrorist attack on Sept 11th 2001, in which case /facepalm

Pocono Joe

sceptre wrote: »

I can give you another example if you like while you're demonstrating the above as an opportunity to back up an assertion.

Example is the education system and the need for more US college graduates, as identified in his first joint session with congress earlier this year. It's also the next item on the google return list that isn't already on your list (actually, Israel is but I'm reasonably regarding that as part of the middle east item which you're already looking into). GIven that I'm strictly following the list in order, you'll have the advantage over me as I'm only picking up the next itemn as required - you can plan ahead.

Although it might be in your google return, the education system and the need for more US college graduates is not really considered a major problem or crisis by the American people at the current time, as far as I have observed. Especially since teachers and other education employees represent the largest number of the 650,000 supposed jobs saved or created, at about 325,000 (1). But is it remarkable that there is no outrage from the American people over this, as these 325,000 jobs can only be sustained by increases in our taxes, in my opinion. Thank you our mainstream media. :mad:

And Israel is not really considered a major problem or crisis here at the current time, in my opinion. Israel seems, and has been portrayed here, as very reserved regarding Iran and Palestine since Obama has taken office. Although those here who are interested in international affairs understand the Israel/Iran situation is a potential powder keg with Iran’s nuclear ambitions. If conflict does breakout, it is my opinion that the American people in vast majority will be on Israel’s side. I have no idea which side the POTUS will be on if conflict erupts, but I’m confident he will blame Bush for it,if it does.

(1) http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stimulus-saved-created-650000-apf-929304307.html?x=0

And I'll tackle them one at a time... thank you very much.

Pocono Joe

LostinKildare wrote: »

Ah, the latest talking point. Bush's supporters are in such denial about his disastrous regime that they've marched out their talking heads to make the breathtaking assertion that 9/11 didn't happen on his watch. From yesterday's Think Progress (with loads of source links):

Well... Matalin definitely misspoke. I guess being married to James Carville for so long tends to rot the brain. The attack did occur on Bush’s watch, although the planning most definitely did begin during the Clinton administration from the accounts I have read. Regardless, the attack did occur during the Bush administration, and he dealt with it, and I don’t recall him blaming Clinton for the attack at every opportunity.

Overheal

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Well... Matalin definitely misspoke. I guess being married to James Carville for so long tends to rot the brain. The attack did occur on Bush’s watch, although the planning most definitely did begin during the Clinton administration from the accounts I have read. Regardless, the attack did occur during the Bush administration, and he dealt with it, and I don’t recall him blaming Clinton for the attack at every opportunity.

You misspeak your order off the McDonald's breakfast menu. You don't misspeak blaming President Clinton for the outcome of the September 11 attacks and the current Recession.

Pocono Joe

But I bet she knows that we have 50, not 57 US states.

Overheal

Pocono Joe wrote: »

But I bet she knows that we have 50, not 57 US states.

If you want to get started on Gaffs I will make you go blind.

Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?

I'll just take your reply as a cue that you have nothing else of substance to add to this discussion.

jank

PJ being asked to back up claims he makes on this forum. This should be fun, its like the class clown being put to task over his performance. I can see the sweat wiping off the brow already.

Nodin

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Three more years of "It was Bush’s fault?”

....alledgedly, from the people who brought you 8 years of "That Clinton......"

Overheal

jank wrote: »

PJ being asked to back up claims he makes on this forum. This should be fun, its like the class clown being put to task over his performance. I can see the sweat wiping off the brow already.

You make it sound like he worries about passing. Joe will slink away from this thread and crop up in a couple days with some other PoS.

Still its better than JohnMc1 firing links without discussion.

Actually if you put Joe and John together you'd have a single functioning Poster.

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

You make it sound like he worries about passing. Joe will slink away from this thread and crop up in a couple days with some other PoS.

Still its better than JohnMc1 firing links without discussion.

Actually if you put Joe and John together you'd have a single functioning Poster.

I did not post on this thread at all so I don't appreciate you bringing my name into this. You wouldn't appreciate me doing it you so extend me the same coutesy. I don't care if you infract me or ban me for this but that was a low class piece of **** thing to do.

Overheal

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I did not post on this thread at all so I don't appreciate you bringing my name into this. You wouldn't appreciate me doing it you so extend me the same coutesy. I don't care if you infract me or ban me for this but that was a low class piece of **** thing to do.

I'm sorry but I feel yours is a relevant example on the topic of subject matter in this forum. Recalling the Healthcare Thread, not only were you just spitting out URL Links, you clearly weren't even reading them. This is what I am referring to. What ensued from that was about 3 pages of needless circle jerk which could have easily been condensed to a couple posts.

Yours is a necessary example of why we have guidelines in place regarding Sources and Discussion (and the balance of both).

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

I'm sorry but I feel yours is a relevant example on the topic of subject matter in this forum. Recalling the Healthcare Thread, not only were you just spitting out URL Links, you clearly weren't even reading them.

Yours is a necessary example of why we have guidelines in place regarding Sources and Discussion (and the balance of both).

I had nothing to do with this topic and I should not have been brought into this and whatever happens/ed in other threads should not have any bearing on this thread.

It was a bull**** thing to do and you would no doubt do it again.

Overheal

You can report the post but I dont feel I've done anything out of line. I frequently make references to other posters who may or may not be in-thread before that point.

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

You can report the post but I dont feel I've done anything out of line. I frequently make references to other posters who may or may not be in-thread before that point.

If you wouldn't tolerate me or any other poster doing that then don't do it yourself.

Overheal

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If you wouldn't tolerate me or any other poster doing that then don't do it yourself.

Already do.

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

Already do.

I've never that kind of a stunt. Nice to know you're a liar too.

bobblepuzzle

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I did not post on this thread at all so I don't appreciate you bringing my name into this. You wouldn't appreciate me doing it you so extend me the same coutesy. I don't care if you infract me or ban me for this but that was a low class piece of **** thing to do.

Have to say I'm with JohnMc1 here... seemed like an uneccesary thing to do.

Overheal

if you would like to continue this through PM I'd be happy but now youre just trainwrecking this thread.