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Will 2010 be the year of Irish Economic Armageddon?
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Amhran Nua wrote: »I'm having a hard time interpreting that, this is what I think you meant; Chinese labourers and professionals earn vastly less than their equivalently qualified Irish counterparts, and China has a vastly larger labour pool, with no need for western assistance to build out its infrastructure.
So if you could help us out here and clarify exactly how we could "get a piece of that", that'd be great.
Name the three factors of production in any economy.
Name the three factors - Labour is only one.
The point is that China doesn't need an Irish workforce.
A myth, really?No, there are plenty of them near to factories and industrial parks in Galway for example - go out to Dough Uisce or one of those estates and you'll find a dearth of half finished apartments, while many of the finished ones are still empty of course. This myth that the overbuild is all in undesireable locations is just that, a myth.
*I* don't want to live in Galway or "Dough Uisce" - wherever that is!
We'll wait and see how many respondents put their hands up to wanting to move to "Dough Uisce".
*mheh*
You really *are* missing this point aren't you?Right, but who pays for the developments? Mortage holders, thats who. So by following the trail back to where the real wealth is ultimately created, thats where it starts, and in this case is wasted.
Developers rolled over profits into new developments.
They didn't just roll the profits into building them.
They then bought units en masse to keep.
They're not "average" morgage holders.
You'll always know the political losers when they make cheap ad hominems.So we should take the advice of our morbidly obese Taoiseach and "tighten our belts"?
And they're often characterised by making ad hominems against people they're arguing with instead of addressing issues raised.Wow, this is starting to read like one of those spam emails that come in from time to time, a disconnected garble of sentences that bear just enough resemblance to an actual phrase to get past the filters.
Sometimes they like to pretend they don't understand the issues raised.
"What three factors of production are necessary for any economy?"
Go ahead - amaze us with your graps of economic reality.
What could Ireland contribute to China in building.
None of these geniuses offered any viable alternatives.You can say it as often as you like and it still won't be true. Not just political parties but economic commentators offered many alternatives. Still, none are so blind as those who don't wish to see and all that...
Nama is a means of buying debt without raising external finance - a masterful move.
Guaranteeing the bank debts saw Ireland become a net inward investment location until Britain followd suit - they had only guaranteed ST£35K per account beforehand.
Painting this picture suggests that the people behind private business interests aren't also members of "the public".If public representatives stop representing the public and instead start to represent private business interests in their statements and legislation, who is to blame?
Thus you stand revealed as an anti-capitalist, pushing some outdated socialist agenda.
Possibly appropriate in an era where the government have bailed out the Uber-capitalist flagships, the Banks.
I don't think your party will grow legs, even in this climate.
Go ahead, prove me wrong at the polls.
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Another post that belongs in politics.ie by the looks of it.
I'll say this once.
Not ONE political party came up with a credible alternative to the Bank Guarantee Scheme or NAMA - not one.
Yet witless people who contributed nothing meaningful to the debate refuse to get on with it and spend their time bl
eating about might-have-beens.
FF didn't hold guns to people's heads to make them buy property.
Greed was the motivator - getting on the bandwagon.
Some fell off - more will do so yet.
Develop ways to catch them.
Don't whinge instead.
ONQ.
FFS your posts read like the usual dribble flaunted by ffers trying to absolve the party of the blame for the mess the public finances, economy and banking sector are in.
ff were in power and rather than take heat out of the housing market they fanned it with continuing tax incentives to build.
How long did they leave Section 23/50s grants in place ?
How long did it take them to get the report on these schemes and then remove them ?
Why didn't they start limiting the attractiveness of investment property ?
Yes people were greedy but who pushed the buttons ?
ff, together with their cosy relatives the bankers and developers, acted like the local drug pusher who wants to increase the number of addicts so that they and their cohorts can get richer by feeding the habits of the addicts.
Their cohorts included the bankers, the developers, the builders, the lawyers, the auctioneers and the ones suppling the building industry.
Everything became subservient to the construction industry and it still is when you look at NAMA and the bank guarantee.
You laud all the decisions made by the government and in true ff style rubbish discenting voices and their lack of a credible alternative.
NAMA is a millstone around the necks of this generation and indeed the next.
We gave a bank guarantee to Anglo which is going to saddle the Irish citizens with 20 plus billion of toxic assets and IN which is going to give us 8 odd billion of toxic debts.
That is not even mentioning the fact that these banks are niche players and are costing us billions in recapitalisation.
Then you float the usual ff/pro NAMA kite about how this will not cost us since it is "buying debt without raising external finance" .
No matter what way you spin it, the Irish citizen becomes responsible for other people's outlandish debts and it will cost us in borrowing some day, unless of course we recreate the property bubble by some miracle ala frank fahey's wet dreams.
BTW you appear very condescending towards Galway, a city which historically had always gotten a fair share of inward foreign investment in actual real jobs, well real at least until the multinationals left for greener pastures.
If you are afraid to venture that far West I can introduce you to an empty estate in Carlow, a town 50 odd miles at the end of a motorway to Dublin and a town which became one of the Capital's commutter towns.
So stop bulls***ing about there only being supposed empty estates in the likes of Leitrim.
Oh and using the old favourite Leitrim shows lack of imagination.
Roscommon is just as bad.
The ball-less wonders who never do anything in the world are constantly amazed by those who do - that never changes.
You'd be surprised that some businesses are actually doing well in this recession.
PS listening you talk about the doers and great balled wonders reminds me of Ulick McEvaddy lauding the supposed fine gentleman Seanie Fitz :rolleyes:
Theives, liars and the likes of Bernie Maddoff are also doers.
It doesn't mean we should respect them or want to emmulate them.consumer confidence will rise over the year, a levelling out of house prices will occur 2nd quarter but with the public expenditure creating even larger problems another turbulent year ahead.
Are you still looking for investment property ?I am not allowed discuss …
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Answer the question please - how exactly would Irish construction firms get into China. I'd would be genuinely delighted to hear your ideas on this, as it would solve rather a large problem for us.Name the three factors of production in any economy.
Name the three factors - Labour is only one.
I told you where it is, its a suburban area abutting some of the largest industrial parks in the west.*I* don't want to live in Galway or "Dough Uisce" - wherever that is!
Not nearly as much as you. At the end of the day, who is it that pays for developments? We can play "and who paid him" all week and we'll still reach the end of the line at... ordinary mortgage holders.You really *are* missing this point aren't you?
If I could figure out what issue you were raising I might be able to address it. You apparently suggested that Irish construction firms should go work in China, I requested a few thoughts from yourself as to how that might work, and you responded by pointing out that we have an anti corruption platform in Amhrán Nua, so apparently we, er, shouldn't even be talking about China or something?You'll always know the political losers when they make cheap ad hominems.
And they're often characterised by making ad hominems against people they're arguing with instead of addressing issues raised.
These join the dots conversations are fun and all, but clarify what you are saying if you expect a serious response.
It was your idea, you tell us!What could Ireland contribute to China in building.
According to who?None of these geniuses offered any viable alternatives.
So having a Nobel Prize Winning Economist, Stiglitz, call NAMA "criminal" didn't make so much as a dent in your breezy confidence?Nama is a means of buying debt without raising external finance - a masterful move.
Guaranteeing deposits was a good idea, guaranteeing all debt and interbank loans was extremely foolish.Guaranteeing the bank debts saw Ireland become a net inward investment location until Britain followd suit - they had only guaranteed ST£35K per account beforehand.
Do us a favour and look up the ICIM in our policies pages, then come back and tell us about socialism.Thus you stand revealed as an anti-capitalist, pushing some outdated socialist agenda.I don't think your party will grow legs, even in this climate.
Go ahead, prove me wrong at the polls. 0 -
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If you are afraid to venture that far West I can introduce you to an empty estate in Carlow, a town 50 odd miles at the end of a motorway to Dublin and a town which became one of the Capital's commutter towns.
So stop bulls***ing about there only being supposed empty estates in the likes of Leitrim.
Oh and using the old favourite Leitrim shows lack of imagination.
Roscommon is just as bad.
No-one needs to leave our capital to find properties that have been completed for years and are unsold...in fact, there is no need to leave the leafy suburbs of Dublin's southside! I live in an award-winning development in Dublin 6 with unsold units, while a few miles down the roads in Dundrum there are hundreds of unsold apartments. In Rathfarnham there are unsold new houses if anyone wants to see them...0 -
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Amhran Nua wrote: »And we're done here.
I edited that to reflect some more parliamentary language, but its nice to see you ran away at that point smirking.
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Not at all, I'm just sick and tired of whingers who gambled and lost blaming it on the FF party or anyone else for that matter.FFS your posts read like the usual dribble flaunted by ffers trying to absolve the party of the blame for the mess the public finances, economy and banking sector are in.
Probably because there were whingers who supported them who wanted to keep it going to make money on their gambled investments.ff were in power and rather than take heat out of the housing market they fanned it with continuing tax incentives to build.
How long did they leave Section 23/50s grants in place ?
How long did it take them to get the report on these schemes and then remove them ?
Why didn't they start limiting the attractiveness of investment property ?
Nonsense question, unless you believe all ladults lack critical faculties.Yes people were greedy but who pushed the buttons ?
I lived through the celtic tiger here and no-one forced me to buy anything.
Oho, so we're all little addicts now are we?ff, together with their cosy relatives the bankers and developers, acted like the local drug pusher who wants to increase the number of addicts so that they and their cohorts can get richer by feeding the habits of the addicts.
Poor little people with no power to say no who blame others for their misfortune.
Pul-lease!
The same cohorts whom Michael Lowry got to support Fine Gael when it was in debt in the nineties.Their cohorts included the bankers, the developers, the builders, the lawyers, the auctioneers and the ones suppling the building industry.
As opposed to being subservient to the farmers perhaps?Everything became subservient to the construction industry and it still is when you look at NAMA and the bank guarantee.
And your point is?You laud all the decisions made by the government and in true ff style rubbish discenting voices and their lack of a credible alternative.
<nods>NAMA is a millstone around the necks of this generation and indeed the next.
We gave a bank guarantee to Anglo which is going to saddle the Irish citizens with 20 plus billion of toxic assets and IN which is going to give us 8 odd billion of toxic debts.
We did what we had to do to get over a particular hurdle.
No, you just don't understand the cleverness of this move.That is not even mentioning the fact that these banks are niche players and are costing us billions in recapitalisation.
Then you float the usual ff/pro NAMA kite about how this will not cost us since it is "buying debt without raising external finance" .
No matter what way you spin it, the Irish citizen becomes responsible for other people's outlandish debts and it will cost us in borrowing some day, unless of course we recreate the property bubble by some miracle ala frank fahey's wet dreams.
Next you'll show that you don't understand how fractional reserve banking creates money out of nothing.
I've visited Galway several times, helped design a part of it, just don't want to live there - my people are on the East Coast.BTW you appear very condescending towards Galway, a city which historically had always gotten a fair share of inward foreign investment in actual real jobs, well real at least until the multinationals left for greener pastures.
Nawww, Carlow's not for me either I'm afraid, except by necessity.If you are afraid to venture that far West I can introduce you to an empty estate in Carlow, a town 50 odd miles at the end of a motorway to Dublin and a town which became one of the Capital's commutter towns.
I knew I should've added Carlow as well.<drums fingers>So stop bulls***ing about there only being supposed empty estates in the likes of Leitrim.
I was trying to avoid mentioning Roscommon...Oh and using the old favourite Leitrim shows lack of imagination.
Roscommon is just as bad.
No. but it does mean you should acknowledge that without such creatures, most economies would tend to stagnate.PS listening you talk about the doers and great balled wonders reminds me of Ulick McEvaddy lauding the supposed fine gentleman Seanie Fitz :rolleyes:
Theives, liars and the likes of Bernie Maddoff are also doers.
It doesn't mean we should respect them or want to emmulate them.
Perhaps in Australia - Ulp!Are you still looking for investment property ?
ONQ0 -
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Oho, so we're all little addicts now are we?
Poor little people with no power to say no who blame others for their misfortune.
Pul-lease!
It's Please you will find
No matter how you pronounce it.
I do blame ff for the misfortune of having to pay for the f***ups of it's governments.
I will pay higher taxes, get less services and generally have a worse life because they f***ed up firstly in implementing the polices they wanted and secondly in not dealing with the outcomes satisfactorily.The same cohorts whom Michael Lowry got to support Fine Gael when it was in debt in the nineties.
As opposed to being subservient to the farmers perhaps?
You forgot to mention blueshirts :rolleyes:
Well the country couldn't be any more f***ed if they had rolled over and played footsie in the cowpats with the IFA and ICMSA.
(Farming organisations for those of an urban slant)
I don't ever recall hearing of any farmer owing the banks over 1 billion and then expecting the taxpayers to cover it ?
And don't forget farming actually give us somethings we can export, even though they have by products of cowsh** and sheepsh**, which upsets the greens so much.
All ff gave us was bull**** and we are now up to our necks in it. :rolleyes:
The greens don't seem too upset with bull**** it appears.We did what we had to do to get over a particular hurdle.
Out of the fyring pan and into the fire ehhh.
Ah to hell with tomorrow, just worry about today. Short term solution.
You almost sound bertish.No, you just don't understand the cleverness of this move.
Next you'll show that you don't understand how fractional reserve banking creates money out of nothing.
I will readily admit that I am not economist or an economics expert but I know when I am being sold a pup.
Tell me the cleverness of this move, please ?
Lets see we take 75 odd billion of loans from the banks for 54 odd billion even though by conservative estimates they are only worth 47 odd billion (and decreasing).
And if the loans are not being serviced we will take the securing assets and try and sell them.
Now unless the property market picks up to levels that were present at height of bubble when the loans were taken out, we will be selling these assets at value below what is outstanding on the loans.
And all the economic indicators would lead one to believe the proeprty market is doomed to go the other direction as realism enters the market.
So forgive me again for now being an economist, but that sounds like a bum deal.
I would hazard a guess it sounds like a bad deal to most people, bar of course yourself.
We lose money with estimates being between 10 and 25 billion.
That doesn't even mention the further recapitalisation required by the banks.I've visited Galway several times, helped design a part of it, just don't want to live there - my people are on the East Coast.
Nawww, Carlow's not for me either I'm afraid, except by necessity.
I knew I should've added Carlow as well.<drums fingers>
I was trying to avoid mentioning Roscommon...
Wipee Galway and Carlow must have been honoured.No. but it does mean you should acknowledge that without such creatures, most economies would tend to stagnate.
ONQ
Nice to see who you think are necessary for a non stagnant economy :rolleyes:
Has it ever crossed your mind that such individuals actually cause greater economic stagnation long term ?I am not allowed discuss …
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<slaps head>It's Please you will find
No matter how you pronounce it.
I do blame ff for the misfortune of having to pay for the f***ups of it's governments.
I will pay higher taxes, get less services and generally have a worse life because they f***ed up firstly in implementing the polices they wanted and secondly in not dealing with the outcomes satisfactorily.
You forgot to mention blueshirts :rolleyes:
How could I have forgotten!
We did that for enough years and it wasn't so great.Well the country couldn't be any more f***ed if they had rolled over and played footsie in the cowpats with the IFA and ICMSA.
(Farming organisations for those of an urban slant)
A balanced portfolio of industries is what is required I think.
That and self-sufficiency in food items.
Well the point about farmers and what they owed is well taken - mind you there are those who would argue that farmers took similar amounts from Brussels over the years for poorly productive small holdings.I don't ever recall hearing of any farmer owing the banks over 1 billion and then expecting the taxpayers to cover it ?
And don't forget farming actually give us somethings we can export, even though they have by products of cowsh** and sheepsh**, which upsets the greens so much.
All ff gave us was bull**** and we are now up to our necks in it. :rolleyes:
The greens don't seem too upset with bull**** it appears.
Ah lads, lads... this is getting durty now...Out of the fyring pan and into the fire ehhh.
Ah to hell with tomorrow, just worry about today. Short term solution.
You almost sound bertish.
I'm not an economist either but Nama paying for it with government paper instead of with internationally borrowed cash meant we didn't have to borrow so much actual money.I will readily admit that I am not economist or an economics expert but I know when I am being sold a pup.
Tell me the cleverness of this move, please ?
Willya relax for goodness sakes.Lets see we take 75 odd billion of loans from the banks for 54 odd billion even though by conservative estimates they are only worth 47 odd billion (and decreasing).
And if the loans are not being serviced we will take the securing assets and try and sell them.
Now unless the property market picks up to levels that were present at height of bubble when the loans were taken out, we will be selling these assets at value below what is outstanding on the loans.
And all the economic indicators would lead one to believe the proeprty market is doomed to go the other direction as realism enters the market.
Its a holding exercise - by the time of payback money will have devalued to allow it to be done at more rational levels - like paying off the last few years of a mortgage.So forgive me again for now being an economist, but that sounds like a bum deal.
I would hazard a guess it sounds like a bad deal to most people, bar of course yourself.
We lose money with estimates being between 10 and 25 billion.
That doesn't even mention the further recapitalisation required by the banks.
Wha?Wipee Galway and Carlow must have been honoured.Nice to see who you think are necessary for a non stagnant economy :rolleyes:
Has it ever crossed your mind that such individuals actually cause greater economic stagnation long term ?
Wimmin like naughty boys for the same reason.
Or so de wife tells me...
LOL!
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Amazing how many people are buying into the public sector scapegoat ****e.
The unions, which originally gained numbers to secure workers rights in the private sector, are now more closely associated with the public sector.
Some people who may have poorly prepared for their pensions resent others with defined benefit schemes where the taxpayer [them] has to foot the bill.
Perhaps its not so amazing after all and the scapegoating is really just accurately targetting the last bastion of what some see as a ring-fenced beaurocracy.
Oh, wait - I'm forgetting Councillors, County Managers, TD's, Senators, and such like, aren't I?
We'll start a new list and see who best to target next week - Noel Dempsey, the absentee carboard cut out, looks likely.
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