40,000 to leave country before April 2010

Goduznt Xzst

Flamed Diving wrote: »

tey derker doo!

dadurker durrr!!!

It's a worrying situation indeed.... what will we do if the countries that accept our Irish emigrants treat them even half the same as we treated those who immigrated into our country :eek:

Mena

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

dadurker durrr!!!

It's a worrying situation indeed.... what will we do if the countries that accept our Irish emigrants treat them even half the same as we treated those who immigrated into our country :eek:

In fairness now, I've been here 10 years and have been treated very, very well. Better than I ever could have hoped.

The only place (I see) as a problem is a bunch of keyboard warriors who don't make a difference in the real world anyway.

Perhaps I've been lucky, but I still see and feel the Ireland of the Welcomes. Maybe not being Eastern European or Black has helped me though? (Yes, there, I said it.)

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

By population. World > Ireland.

That's a pathetic argument.

If thats what you want to see, thats what you'll see.

I am also capable of seeing things that I don't want to see. Don't imply that I invented the double standard that I detected in your post.

So would you rather suppress all discussion on the issue? Theres a name for that sort of behaviour, and its a considerably worse one than xenophobia.

Are you trying to dissuade me from discussing xenophobia in Ireland? I am quite willing to discuss it on the basis that I consider it reprehensible and am prepared to say so. I am also willing and able to recognise it even when it is trying to sneak in wearing the clothes of a respectable person: you cannot give special privileges to the Irish in Ireland over and above what you give to immigrants without instituting racism or ethnicism.

It is clear that tens of thousands of Irish are leaving Ireland, and I'm not sure why the ESRI predicts a decrease anytime soon.]

"Tens of thousands" seems to come down to 18,400. So far as I know, the count includes quite a large number who leave with the intention of returning next year -- the likes of young people doing the "Australia thing".

As far as any Irish government is concerned, of course the "native-born" Irish should come first. What a statement to make, we invest two decades of taxpayer money into educating these people, naturally its in our best interests to ensure that stays here.

So an educated Lithuanian is less valuable than an educated Irish person?

I don't want anybody to feel forced to emigrate. To me, that applies equally to the Polish-born staff and the Irish-born staff in the place where I buy my groceries.

If I may segue for a moment, are you currently working here yourself? I seem to recall reading you had retired somewhere.

Irrelevant, unless you want material for an ad hominem argument.

Amhran Nua

dvpower wrote: »

That's a pretty dumb argument.

By population. World > Any country in the world.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's a pathetic argument.

That was a response to a particular poster, if either of you would mind explaining why larger countries might be less well able to absorb the emigrants of smaller countries, that'd be just great.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am also capable of seeing things that I don't want to see. Don't imply that I invented the double standard that I detected in your post.

Given that your first comment was incorrect, your second comment based on your first comment must therefore also be incorrect. Countries like the USA are much more capable of absorbing emigrants from Ireland than Ireland is capable of absorbing emigrants from the USA or similar much larger countries. No double standard just hard fact.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Are you trying to dissuade me from discussing xenophobia in Ireland? I am quite willing to discuss it on the basis that I consider it reprehensible and am prepared to say so. I am also willing and able to recognise it even when it is trying to sneak in wearing the clothes of a respectable person: you cannot give special privileges to the Irish in Ireland over and above what you give to immigrants without instituting racism or ethnicism.

Eh every country on earth gives special priveleges to its own citizens over immigrants, at least temporarily, for example voting rights. That you are trying to turn this into a discussion about racism implies that you have no other support for your point of view. Also we've one foot in Godwin territory here.

I find this tactic of shrieking "racism" at the drop of a hat not constructive in any way shape or form to a logical, thought out discussion on the economic ramifications of the unplanned migration of many accession state workers into a small economy.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

"Tens of thousands" seems to come down to 18,400. So far as I know, the count includes quite a large number who leave with the intention of returning next year -- the likes of young people doing the "Australia thing".

To April 2009. Unless you reckon Irish emigration stopped entirely in the intervening months, it is tens of thousands. As for the second statement, have you anythng at all to back that up.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So an educated Lithuanian is less valuable than an educated Irish person?

Depends, how much Irish taxpayer money went into educating either one respectively?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Irrelevant, unless you want material for an ad hominem argument.

Hardly, just trying to understand your perspective. So are you in fact retired from the workforce? No problem if you don't wish to respond to that, I feel it would help further the discussion.

Flamed Diving

I can't believe I am actually required to ask this question, but...

Amhran Nua, do non-Irish workers pay tax, while in Ireland?

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I can't believe I am actually required to ask this question, but...

Amhran Nua, do non-Irish workers pay tax, while in Ireland?

Ah here you hit on the difference between tax revenues and the economy. These are two very different things.

Flamed Diving

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Ah here you hit on the difference between tax revenues and the economy. These are two very different things.

Wow, off the point, faster than a speeding bullet. Classic Politics forum.

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Wow, off the point, faster than a speeding bullet. Classic Politics forum.

We're in the Irish Economy forum.

Flamed Diving

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We're in the Irish Economy forum.

I know, a sub-forum of... and you are still missing the barn door.

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That was a response to a particular poster, if either of you would mind explaining why larger countries might be less well able to absorb the emigrants of smaller countries, that'd be just great.

No need to. You are merely trying to suck people into discussing a silly proposition.

Given that your first comment was incorrect, your second comment based on your first comment must therefore also be incorrect. Countries like the USA are much more capable of absorbing emigrants from Ireland than Ireland is capable of absorbing emigrants from the USA or similar much larger countries. No double standard just hard fact.

I'm not going to waste time playing silly buggers. I simply do not accept as reasonable a suggestion that Irish emigrants should be allowed more privilege in their destination countries than we are prepared to grant to people who immigrate here.

Eh every country on earth gives special priveleges to its own citizens over immigrants, at least temporarily, for example voting rights. That you are trying to turn this into a discussion about racism implies that you have no other support for your point of view. Also we've one foot in Godwin territory here.

I find this tactic of shrieking "racism" at the drop of a hat not constructive in any way shape or form to a logical, thought out discussion on the economic ramifications of the unplanned migration of many accession state workers into a small economy.

Don't try that trick. I didn't shout racism. I objected to your idea of different migration rights for different ethnic groups.

To April 2009. Unless you reckon Irish emigration stopped entirely in the intervening months, it is tens of thousands.

So we are dealing in estimates, and you don't have evidence to proffer?

As for the second statement, have you anythng at all to back that up.

So you challenge me to back up a statement that I qualify with "so far as I know"? Preposterous. But yes, I have a basis for thinking what I say: the CSO counts movements in and out, but does not ask people for their plans.

Depends, how much Irish taxpayer money went into educating either one respectively?

That's irrelevant: a chemist is a chemist, and an accountant is an accountant, whether our state or another one funded their education.

Hardly, just trying to understand your perspective. So are you in fact retired from the workforce? No problem if you don't wish to respond to that, I feel it would help further the discussion.

My personal circumstances are irrelevant here. I find it odd, and a bit disconcerting, that you want to suggest otherwise.

Amhran Nua

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No need to. You are merely trying to suck people into discussing a silly proposition.

I'm not the one that brought the subject up, in fairness.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not going to waste time playing silly buggers. I simply do not accept as reasonable a suggestion that Irish emigrants should be allowed more privilege in their destination countries than we are prepared to grant to people who immigrate here.

Can you point out to me where I said that should be the case.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't try that trick. I didn't shout racism. I objected to your idea of different migration rights for different ethnic groups.

Once again, every country on earth has different migration rights for different nationalities. For example, I can fly to the Phillipines for three weeks any time it takes my fancy, a Filipino cannot do the same to Ireland without some fairly stringent criteria being passed.

And as it turns out, the first mention of "xenophobia" was by yourself.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So we are dealing in estimates, and you don't have evidence to proffer?

Not to hand, no. I could look it up but I would feel that the idea of more than two thousand Irish people emigrating from May to December 2009 doesn't need a lot of support.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So you challenge me to back up a statement that I qualify with "so far as I know"? Preposterous. But yes, I have a basis for thinking what I say: the CSO counts movements in and out, but does not ask people for their plans.

Hardly, you're dismissing all Irish emigration as holiday jobs, which seems more than a little off centre, particularly since you cite the CSO not knowing as the basis for claiming that you have knowledge beyond the CSO.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's irrelevant: a chemist is a chemist, and an accountant is an accountant, whether our state or another one funded their education.

This is a false dichotomy - you assume that professionals in one field will be replaced by an equivalent professional from a different country on a one to one basis. If that were the case we wouldn't need streamlined visa programmes for certain professions.

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I'm not the one that brought the subject up, in fairness.

Can you point out to me where I said that should be the case.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63704140&postcount=11 amounts to a claim that the Irish should be treated differently from the way we treat others.

Once again, every country on earth has different migration rights for different nationalities. For example, I can fly to the Phillipines for three weeks any time it takes my fancy, a Filipino cannot do the same to Ireland without some fairly stringent criteria being passed.

So what? We are discussing the notion of an equitable attitude to migration, not holiday visas.

And as it turns out, the first mention of "xenophobia" was by yourself.

Yes. Does that prove anything significant? I used the word because I saw an argument that seemed to me to have a xenophobic underpinning. Nothing you have said since causes me to see your position differently.

Not to hand, no. I could look it up but I would feel that the idea of more than two thousand Irish people emigrating from May to December 2009 doesn't need a lot of support.

Hardly, you're dismissing all Irish emigration as holiday jobs, which seems more than a little off centre, particularly since you cite the CSO not knowing as the basis for claiming that you have knowledge beyond the CSO.

Emphasis added. That is an outrageous distortion, so far off what I said that I consider it dishonest.

This is a false dichotomy - you assume that professionals in one field will be replaced by an equivalent professional from a different country on a one to one basis. If that were the case we wouldn't need streamlined visa programmes for certain professions.

I could have written several paragraphs about the equivalence of qualifications, but I didn't think it was relevant to the point I was making -- which was that it does not matter where any appropriately qualified worker has acquired his or her qualification.

Reply if you like. I'm done arguing with you, as there are better ways to pass the time.

Amhran Nua

P. Breathnach wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63704140&postcount=11 amounts to a claim that the Irish should be treated differently from the way we treat others.

How so? A factual statement was made: The world is a lot better able to absorb Ireland's emigrants than Ireland is able to absorb the world's. The term "The world" was in response to a (quoted) poster who mentioned the same term, and should not be interpreted literally.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So what? We are discussing the notion of an equitable attitude to migration, not holiday visas.

It would also be considerably easier for me to migrate for work to the Philippines than vice-versa. I'm not sure I follow you here, discussions about accession state migration are xenophobia, but you're cool with serious restrictions being applied to workers from southeast asia?

That doesn't look good at all...

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes. Does that prove anything significant? I used the word because I saw an argument that seemed to me to have a xenophobic underpinning. Nothing you have said since causes me to see your position differently.

So now you are accusing me of being a racist, after a comment like the one you made above?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I could have written several paragraphs about the equivalence of qualifications, but I didn't think it was relevant to the point I was making -- which was that it does not matter where any appropriately qualified worker has acquired his or her qualification.

I think it does. Above and beyond the balance of migration/emigration rates, if you were to ask a Lithuanian accountant to calculate the benefits of S class versus A class PRSI with regard to long term pension rights in Ireland, you'd be lucky to get more than a blank stare, and thats before you ever get to language barriers.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Reply if you like. I'm done arguing with you, as there are better ways to pass the time.

Thats a pity, I genuinely respect your posts in this and other forums, but on this topic its unfortunate that a middle ground can't be found.

belge boy

mcaul wrote: »

The OP Title reads like a hysterical headline from the evening herald and only when you read the articel do you see the real story.

Its not 40,000 to leave from today til April. Its 40,000 leave from 1st April 2009 to 31st March 2010.

IMO that's a good healthy figure of educated Irish people expanding their knowledge around the world. Some will stay abroad, many will return. Of the ones that return, some will set up in business and employ more people, others will contribute in other ways.

Even in the heady days of the celtic tiger 20,000+ people moved abroad every year, but they were replaced by 60,000+ people from abroad moving here.

Have think about how it works in the USA - live in Boston and a job offer comes from San Francisco 3000 miles away. You think nothing of moving within a week, so why the outcry here for essentially a similar journey?

Fair play and good luck to anyone who is emigrating and hopefully we'll see you back sometime soon.

lol. this generation is more aware, they are not sentimental like in the past, they know there are better opportunities elsewhere for them and thier children and will not return, just like my parents never did. this means that ireland will stay the proverbial sickman, but you can try spin it whatever way you want.

johnnyskeleton

I think the real issue is not the number of people leaving, but the type of people leaving.

It would suit the government just fine if the people leaving were unskilled people on the dole, but if it is skilled or professional people, particularly in IT, engineering and other science related skills then it will hamper their plans for de knowledge economy.

As Australia and Canada are more likely to give a visa to people who have skills that they need, it seems more likely that we are losing more skilled workers than unskilled workers. Of crucial importance are the business people who might get involved in innovative start up companies and I suspect that they would be among the first to go.

johnnyskeleton

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Perhaps we could introduce a new regime to reflect the view that native-born Irish are more deserving than immigrants: any Irish person who is unemployed should be allowed to claim a job that is currently being done by an immigrant [it could cause chaos in hospitals when unemployed bricklayers lay claim to the junior doctor jobs being filled by Pakistanis but, hey, nothing is perfect].

The Dept of Justice does take that approach when it comes to the renewal of non-EU work permits i.e. that the job could be done by an Irish citizen therefore please leave the country. There is also an increasing trend IMO to have EU citizens removed if they have been unemployed for more than 3 months.

belge boy

you can't just 'move citizens' of the european union. the eu is their home.

johnnyskeleton

belge boy wrote: »

you can't just 'move citizens' of the european union. the eu is their home.

EU citizenship isn't really a coherent legal entitlement at the moment. Citizens of EU memberstates (called EU citizens in shorthand) are subject to the provisions of direction EC/2004/38 and the caselaw in the area. Basically, after 3 months in an EU country other than the one in which you claim nationality you must prove that you 1) have a job, 2) are in full time education, 3) have sufficient means to take care of yourself, 4) your spouse is an Eu citizen and satisfies 1-3 (this is slightly more technical) or possibly 5) you are here longer than 3 months but are genuinely seeking work.

If you do not meet the above criteria, you can be removed from the state; in Ireland by Regulation 20 of SI 656/2006.

murphaph

belge boy wrote: »

lol. this generation is more aware, they are not sentimental like in the past, they know there are better opportunities elsewhere for them and thier children and will not return, just like my parents never did. this means that ireland will stay the proverbial sickman, but you can try spin it whatever way you want.

Ireland is a corrupt sh1thole in many respects, but Belgium is hardly a beacon of light now is it? Belgium accumulated much of it's wealth through raping and pillaging various other nations around the world and vast swathes of it are horrible depressing kips to boot. Enjoy it though

belge boy

any euro country that was anyway a powerful nation colonised. the irish were at it but never got further than wales.

yah what u know about belgium, except for like a holiday. imo belgium is the best country in europe.

ejmaztec

belge boy wrote: »

any euro country that was anyway a powerful nation colonised. the irish were at it but never got further than wales.

yah what u know about belgium, except for like a holiday. imo belgium is the best country in europe.

I remember that movie "If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium."

PLIIM

Well after the recent weather i am emigrating for sure.
People emigrate and come home.
They go away to make their fortune and come home with their wealth/skills.
Its always been like that.
You;d think there was never a recession or emigration before, or that economic cycles dont happen, the way some go on.

murphaph

belge boy wrote: »

any euro country that was anyway a powerful nation colonised. the irish were at it but never got further than wales.

yah what u know about belgium, except for like a holiday. imo belgium is the best country in europe.

The Belgium colonies were the pathetic crumbs of what was left after the real superpowers in Europe had carved up the bits of Africa that they actually wanted for themselves. Belgium came along and then made up for their colonies' general crappiness and their nation's inferiority complex by being twice as brutal to the natives as the next worst colonial power. Read Roger Casement's diaries about the Belgian colonies for a real insight. As for Belgium being "the best country in Europe" well, a tiny country that can barely hold it's two parts together is hardly a role model for the European Union, is it?

View

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

EU citizenship isn't really a coherent legal entitlement at the moment. Citizens of EU memberstates (called EU citizens in shorthand) are subject to the provisions of direction EC/2004/38 and the caselaw in the area. Basically, after 3 months in an EU country other than the one in which you claim nationality you must prove that you 1) have a job, 2) are in full time education, 3) have sufficient means to take care of yourself, 4) your spouse is an Eu citizen and satisfies 1-3 (this is slightly more technical) or possibly 5) you are here longer than 3 months but are genuinely seeking work.

If you do not meet the above criteria, you can be removed from the state; in Ireland by Regulation 20 of SI 656/2006.

Technically, this is correct. In practise, I doubt anyone ever goes and proves that they meet these criteria. As such, except for very rare cases where the indivudual concerned has a serious criminal conviction, removals of EU citizens just doesn't happen here.

gurramok

PLIIM wrote: »

Well after the recent weather i am emigrating for sure.
People emigrate and come home.
They go away to make their fortune and come home with their wealth/skills.
Its always been like that.
You;d think there was never a recession or emigration before, or that economic cycles dont happen, the way some go on.

What has the weather got to do with anything?

The whole of Europe has this freezing weather if not worse than us!! Now, unless you want to work in hot weather all year round, go ahead and emigrate to Colombia :P.
The weather would be the last on the list of my priorites for emigration.

Mr.Micro

Posted by belge boy
lol. this generation is more aware, they are not sentimental like in the past, they know there are better opportunities elsewhere for them and thier children and will not return, just like my parents never did. this means that ireland will stay the proverbial sickman, but you can try spin it whatever way you want.

Ireland should get its act together alright and stop whinging. It has its destiny in its hands and could be a very successful small country but we need to deal with corruption and this foot in the past attitude and always ready to blame somebody else. We can only blame ourselves for the current mess for building a house of cards on nothing. We need to learn from it and not get too big for our boots.

ejmaztec

PLIIM wrote: »

Well after the recent weather i am emigrating for sure.
People emigrate and come home.
They go away to make their fortune and come home with their wealth/skills.
Its always been like that.
You;d think there was never a recession or emigration before, or that economic cycles dont happen, the way some go on.

Thousands of people emigrate and half a dozen come back as pensioners when their foreign-born kids leave home.

The people that go away to make their fortune usually don't come back, accept for the odd holiday. Most of them wouldn't be stupid enough to bring their wealth back into the country, as they would probably like to keep it, and not hand it over in high taxes to a more recent government than the one that forced them, through lack of job creation, to leave the country in the first place.

The promotion of mass emigration seems to be the first unwritten policy of any ruler of Ireland going back hundreds of years. The last 20 years was an exceptional blip.

belge boy

Yeah that is so true and I mean I couldn't imagine here people looking at the postivies of mass emmigration. it actually makes me lol

View

Reading the various threads related to "immigration" and "emigration", it is hard not to contrast the attitudes with those I came across in a US state.

There "immigration" into the state was regarded as a positive sign of the growing local economy. "Emigration" from the state, nothing to get stressed about.

By way of contrast, there is a prepetual tone of whining present in Ireland about these issues where first there was complaints about immigration, now about emigration.

Personally, I'd rather the US attitude.

Trouser_Press

View wrote: »

Reading the various threads related to "immigration" and "emigration", it is hard not to contrast the attitudes with those I came across in a US state.

There "immigration" into the state was regarded as a positive sign of the growing local economy.

Well, based on my own experience in the States the last 10 years or so, living and working in over 20 states, I found there to be just two attitudes to immigration:

(1) It's loved by employers, of every stripe, because it allows them hire the cheapest of labour (eg from California farmers to New York restaurateurs)

(2) It's hated by just about everyone else, not least the unemployed or those earning crap wages - because of (1).

The notion that most Americans throw a big welcoming hug around the shoulders of modern day immigrants is one of the great myths of our time.