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Will the PC ultimately win the console war?
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That's a very relevant example for me as whilst I've moved over to consoles for the majority of my gaming within the past 2 years, I still don't really like FPS games on consoles. I would have never gotten addicted to TF2 like I did on the PC if I was playing it on a console.Tessa Prehistoric Racketeering wrote: »Take FPS for instance, the skill cap of a player is limited on the console due to the limited movement you have with a joypad. With a keyboard / mouse combination, that skill cap is much higher. You can be very very precise with your mouse. You can move your corsair much faster, with keybindings I find you can crouch and move better on a keyboard. Take into account how much a player plays on PC / Console. A console player will find the mouse / Keyboard combo difficult to master, while a PC player finds a console difficult to master.
This brings me nicely onto another point about consoles and I think people have already been making it in this thread in relation to the hardware - in some respects, console games appeal to the lowest common denominator a lot more than a PC games do, and for this reason I don't see the PC 'ultimately winning the console war'. Consoles games are like Michael Bay films - they're expensive to make but make a lot of money because they're easy for the average Jane or Joe to pick up, understand and appreciate all the nice explosions. If we take some of the biggest selling console games, say Halo and Metal Gear, I'd say they fit the description quite well. Even the Final Fantasy games, which are some of the more complex biggest sellers of all time, are simplified with respect to other games within the same genre.
So if the biggest selling console games are epic and flashy, yet easy to understand and pick up, what are the biggest selling PC games? The Sims franchise is the biggest, and whilst it may appear simple the level of micromanagement is very typical of PC games (it seems fitting here to point out that the console versions of The Sims games are much easier and involve less micromanagement).
The Sims games also have a huge modding and creating community, demonstrating another difference between console games and PC games - the game experiences can expand beyond what the developer intended through mod support. Game modding is perhaps one of the greatest things about PC gaming, but surely it is easy to appreciate it is a more niche interest. One of my favourite console games, LittleBigPlanet, brings modding in the form of level creation to consoles in a much more user friendly format which is perhaps more appropriate for consoles. Modding a PC game requires a lot more dedication - something which is perhaps indicative of PC gamers in general.
Are PC games more complex because that's what PC gamers have always demanded? Do they sell more poorly because of this? Is the opposite true for consoles games and gamers (less complex, better sales)? Edit: As leninbenjamin points out, this is already coming true for the PC - the less complex social networking casual games are where the growth is on the PC it seems.
Couldn't we say that there are certain genres that excel on certain platforms compared to others? Perhaps the most accurate statement would be that we feel better served by the PC for certain genres? For me anyway this is true. I enjoy strategy games, MMOs and FPS games, genres which I fele are much better served by the PC. I also enjoy action adventure games, platformers, driving games, RPGs (particularly Japanese RPGs), shmups and fighting games, which I think work much better on consoles and handheld gaming devices. If you look at the biggest selling games in each genre, you'll see they match this platform breakdown. Apart from the FPS, MMO and strategy genres, the PC doesn't excel as well in as many genres as some of the consoles do, and for that reason I don't think the PC is winning the console war. Edit: However, the casual market has to be taken into account here, which the PC and iPhone, and to a lesser extent the Wii, DS and perhaps the PSP are also exploiting. The HD consoles are at least attempting to appeal to the casual market with new motion controllers, but it remains to be seen what this does for growing the user base.Tessa Prehistoric Racketeering wrote: »As for the games, the gameplay itself is similar, but I find it much more realistic, entertaining and fulfilling on the PC. Overall, yes I think that the quality of games, the gameplay and choice of games is much better on the PC than any other console. I feel very limited when playing console games
If Valve and Blizzard weren't developing awesome games for the PC, what state would it be in?0 -
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Yes and no, while some of the figures may be questionable there fact of the matter is piracy is a significant problems. One need only look at the Modern Warfare 1-2 situation to see how some developers/publishers are reacting to piracy.leninbenjamin wrote: »Piracy at this stage has become nothing more than an excuse. Lazy publishers will at times blame piracy rather than own up to their own failings. Statistically speaking piracy is not well known at all, I don't believe any figures I see because there are so many vested interests involved in their acquisition (even so called 'academic studies' are often entirely funded by a publisher).
There is a big difference between using the internet to promote a brand and some kid ripping a CD and uploading it to their favourite torrent site. While I do believe that the internet can be used far more in terms of marketing and distribution I do not believe it is the only solution or indeed, a viable alternative to the current setup.leninbenjamin wrote: »Secondly, it's also just as easy statistically to equate piracy with increased sales but you rarely ever hear people investigating this because of the vested interests in play. And it has been documented that piracy is a source of growth in other industries, Radiohead being popularised through Napster being the prime example.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my point regarding Epic and iD switching their development muscle to consoles?leninbenjamin wrote: »Not necessarily. You have to remember, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony get royalties for every title sold on their consoles. No one gets any for the PC (although MS have tried and failed with their games for windows sh*te). They push those platforms very very hard.
These figures probably included casual gaming and MMOs such as WoW. However they are not reflective of the argument in favour of PC gaming on this thread.leninbenjamin wrote: »I can no longer find the link on the bbc site, but there was a conference in Edinburgh earlier in the year that produced figures that showed the highest growth was in the PC games. Specifically pay as you play type ventures (in China mainly) seemed to be the only sector experiencing significant growth.
MS have been in the black with the 360 for some time and would have been there sooner had they not had to shell out for the extended RROD warranties. Sony are in the red due to their own stupidity with regards the hardware included in their design. Nintendo have, as far as I am aware, never made a loss on consoles. There is a distinct pattern here one should be able to see.leninbenjamin wrote: »Secondly, development costs on consoles are going through the roof, and profits aren't following. MS only just hit the black with the 360, Sony is still in the red with the PS3 and while Nintendo is in the black with the wii, tie rates are so low that it may not be sustainable. A very worrying time for console makers.
Unfortunately true, however as long as big blockbusters such as Modern Warfare 2, Halo et all exist there will always be some time made for the AAA titles.leninbenjamin wrote: »Thirdly, look at farmville and other social networking/casual games. The games industry as we know it is evolving, the hardcore gamer who spends hundreds on hardware and AAA titles are no longer the big money maker. We will someday be the niche...
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Well bearing in mind the drive in the 360 is a 2.5", there are plenty of drives under 500GB in that catagory. I only mention it because you need to be comparing like with like.
Yep, I know that's what the official price is, doesn't mean it's what you have to pay.
And yes, I'm aware the WRT54GL is a (wireless) router however when combined with the other hardware found in a home with broadband it can be used to preform the same functionality as the MS wireless adaptor (and then some) for considerably less.0 -
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hooradiation wrote: »It's cute that you think you know what your talking about, adorable really.
Interesting. Have you much experience yourself?
That was true 5 - 10 years ago, but my experience with the latest generation differs. Every tried developing for the Xbox360? Limited render targets compared to the PC limits the post processing effects one can add. Ever try programming for the Cell? it's not exactly a walk in the park...
And my views on piracy may be a grand conspiracy theory to you, but I can assure they were formed from my own research in the area and the difficulty in garnering hard cold facts on the issue that were not produced by a publisher whenever one of their AAA did less well than expected.Yes and no, while some of the figures may be questionable there fact of the matter is piracy is a significant problems. One need only look at the Modern Warfare 1-2 situation to see how some developers/publishers are reacting to piracy.
The problem isn't piracy itself, the problem is how they react to it. I'm not familiar with the MW situation you refer to above, but I will point to FM09. Now i don't have figures, but reading a lot of forums suggests that many people pirated the game instead of buying it primarily because of the excessive DRM that locked many users out.There is a big difference between using the internet to promote a brand and some kid ripping a CD and uploading it to their favourite torrent site.
Yes and no. Radiohead were never explicitly marketed in the U.S. their label turned their back on them as they felt they were too unfashinable, yet Kid A. charted purely because of piracy (top 10 i think? can't remember the specifics). Secondly, I'm sure we all have stories of friends and family who've only come across a famous artist/game which they now adore through piracy. There is as much evidence to suggest piracy can increase sales as there is to suggest it harms it, but certain people will always ignore this because it requires them to accept failings in their own business models.
The problem is a failure of the business models of the large houses to accept that piracy exists. For example, Nintendo nearly put themselves out of business because of choosing the cartridge over the CD for the N64, and I was always led to believe their primary motivation for sticking with cartridges was fear of piracy when it came to CDs.I'm not sure what this has to do with my point regarding Epic and iD switching their development muscle to consoles?
My point is there other reasons for the switch than the ones being debated.These figures probably included casual gaming and MMOs such as WoW. However they are not reflective of the argument in favour of PC gaming on this thread.
I don't follow. Why do casual games and MMOs not count? They are afterall the fastest growing sector of the games industry.MS have been in the black with the 360 for some time and would have been there sooner had they not had to shell out for the extended RROD warranties. Sony are in the red due to their own stupidity with regards the hardware included in their design. Nintendo have, as far as I am aware, never made a loss on consoles. There is a distinct pattern here one should be able to see.
Again, I don't follow. What is this pattern? Sony and MS struggling to make money.
And as for Nintendo, well Nintendo never made a loss on consoles that's true, but a sizeable reason is because sales were so phenomenally over initial estimates. And the reason for the large sales was because they targeted consumers who normally wouldn't purchase a console, consumers they are now struggling to encouraging to sustain their investment in the brand. Maybe I'm stark raving, but I thought I remembered reading recently enough that Nintendo lowered their financial projections?0 -
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That I do not accept in the slightest. In terms of music, one need only look at the fall in revenue in the US to see this. Note, not fall in CD sales as that can be explained by digital distribution but actual falls in company revenues. The counter argument here is that as company revenues fall, artist revenues were seen to increase but in the context of game development there is no comparison.leninbenjamin wrote: »There is as much evidence to suggest piracy can increase sales as there is to suggest it harms it...
As for games there has been multiple examples of developers looking into this themselves, for example MW1, World Of Goo and a couple of iPhone developers, and they have found that those people who pirate their games rarely go on to purchase them, simply by the fact that a significant time after release the same users are still online playing their pirated copies.
Oh I understand there are other reasons but I don't understand how your example applies. You can still develop on the PC as your primary platform and release/port onto consoles however the two companies are now targeting the consoles as their lead platforms and will then also release on to PCs - it's a complete reversal of development from previous generations.leninbenjamin wrote: »My point is there other reasons for the switch than the ones being debated.
Well I did say in the context of this debate, the reason being that 90% of the people here are referring to the development of AAA games on the PC rather than the latest Popcap game or one behemoth in the MMO genre.[/QUOTE]leninbenjamin wrote: »I don't follow. Why do casual games and MMOs not count? They are afterall the fastest growing sector of the games industry.
MS are not struggling to make money, as early as November 2006 they were earning a profit, albeit a small one, on their console. This is on top of the XBL revenues generated from subscriptions. The pattern refers to the fact that Microsoft build a console which was easy to develop for and was comprised of compoents which they believed (and indeed were proved right) would allow them to make a profit. Bar the RROD issue I see no problem in this.leninbenjamin wrote: »Again, I don't follow. What is this pattern? Sony and MS struggling to make money.
Sony on the other hand went in a totally different direction, attempting to build an all-in-one wonder machine which completely backfired on them. From the problems with Cell yields to the necessity of adding in a dedicated GPU to the inclusion of a Bluray (which I'm debating is unnecessary in this generation over in a PS thread) they basically set themselves up to make a massive loss. This was hoped to be countered by playing on the Playstation brand and harping on about it's 10 year life cycle. Unfortunately, until recently the latter has fallen on deaf ears and with most developers already pushing the architecture pretty hard, I can't see it lasting 10 years unless of course they included a certain period of co-existence with the Playstation 4. The crux of the issue here is, Sony won't make the same mistake again.
Nintendo, on the other hand, may have taken a risk with the Wii but it was an educated one based on the experience the company has had.
The Wii was their first console that targeted consumers who normally didn't purchase a console.leninbenjamin wrote: »And as for Nintendo, well Nintendo never made a loss on consoles that's true, but a sizeable reason is because sales were so phenomenally over initial estimates. And the reason for the large sales was because they targeted consumers who normally wouldn't purchase a console, consumers they are now struggling to encouraging to sustain their investment in the brand. Maybe I'm stark raving, but I thought I remembered reading recently enough that Nintendo lowered their financial projections?
The lowering of their financial projections is fairly obvious by the way, given the huge numbers already sold. Despite this it is still outselling the hugely successful PS2 over the same period and, despite the drop in sales in recent times, will probably still outsell it over its life cycle.0 -
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You know I want to reply but I fear it's just going to get washed under by another trite "the pyrits r killing my gamezors, oh noes!!!"
Anyway, I'll try to keep it short so that everyone can have space for their opinions on piracy... again... again...Tessa Prehistoric Racketeering wrote: »I think you might be bringing in your personal experience a little too much, everyone I know that owns a gaming PC builds or modifies it in some shape or form.
I don't doubt that there will still be a percentage of people that will still manually build PC's in the future. However, I would be willing to put money on this number never becoming the majority, and never being supported largely by game developers.
My friends Dad went into repairing TVs for a living back in the 70's because he believed people would always want to repair the parts of a TV rather then to buy a new one. Prices dropped and TV's became expendable. He had to find another job. Interest in upgrading PC parts will never be more than a passing hobby for people.The console looks set to become what the PC should of been nearly a decade agoleninbenjamin wrote: »You're on the right lines, but you have it the wrong way around. The console is becoming more like the PC. 0 -
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What i meant was that rather than the console adopting PC features, the PC will edge out the console as the entertainment system of choice. A console, is afterall a set of dedicated hardware for processing and streaming graphical data to a TV, if it adopts the features of a PC as you suggest it loses it's simplicity, in which case it makes more sense to use the ad-hoc standards of the PC rather than define a new architecture that merges the two.
It will be interesting to see what happens, the future of the 'console' could be wrapped up into brand loyalty. HTPCs are already becoming very popular as a niche product, it may not be long before you're as likely to see a Dell under the TV as you are a Sony or Xbox.0 -
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Oh it's win alright, except it's still twice the price of a 360.cherryghost wrote: »lookie here
i built a pc with all mod cons for 500 quid. and it would play any game you throw at it on max (except crysis maybe). it includes peripherals. tell me its not win. i know it is.
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Oh it's win alright, except it's still twice the price of a 360.
It includes peripherals, gaming online is free, the games themselves significantly are cheaper... it works out about the same in the long run tbh.I was actually thinking about that also. If it works hardware upgrades will no longer be needed as none of the rendering will be done locally. All you'll get is a streamed video feed, which, even now, severely underpowered netbooks can currently handle.
What you will have to get used to though is having a ping, not only for the AI and other players movement, but for your own controls response. You'd have to have a total fibre optic network for this to work, might get going in big cities like Tokyo, NY, Singapore, Hong Kong where the infrastructure is fantastic, but it's a long way from being a mass market product.0 -
I am a parent. The consoles have won. Arguments about how many PC's there are in the world or how many homes have one are just mindless numbers. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of these are spec'd for high end gaming.
Xbox 360 elite on Amazon - €200
1 year Xbox live subscription - €30
1 Xbox N class WiFi network adapter - €65
The idea of parents forking out for hard core gaming PC's, setting them up in the main living area, because that is where the 50" plasma is, and keeping them running and putting up with the 'Dad, I can't play the latest version of geekdreamon with out the latest graphics card' - which will probably cost as much as an entire 360 - every 14 months - is just pure fantasy.
High end PC gaming is for geeks. Thinking it is the future of gaming is naive, wishful thinking fantasy.
It's all about money:
http://www.industrygamers.com/galleries/opinion-who-killed-pc-gaming/0 -
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Completely disagree, You don't need top end components. I'm also a parent, My 11 and 12 yo son and daughter play pc games all the time (HL2, CSS, TF2 and Garys mod). They've got a 2.4Ghz core2duo and an 8800gt that were hand-me-downs when I upgraded 18 months ago. A pc which plays everything available can be got for peanuts at the moment. Most average Dells will play any game, which is what most houses buy
Santa got the young fella a 360 for xmas, he was back playing on the pc today
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