Save yourself lots of €€€€'s over the coming week

Flyer1

Hi Folks,

Might even be a bit late for this but with temperature forecast to drop to -10c ( even though I have my doubts ), one thing which is always neglected in peoples cars is the anti-freeze.

For the sake of €20, pop down to your local autofactors, get a gallon of Holts anti-freeze, out with the old, in with the new. Could save you an awful headache and your car will thank you in the long run. It's not a big job, takes 10 minutes for the average enthusiast.

Irish people always seem to neglect things such as coolant, gearbox oil etc.

ShayK1

ok people don't laugh, where does the anti-freeze go?
Is it the radiator? Where the water or coolant should go?

Bonito

ShayK1 wrote: »

ok people don't laugh, where does the anti-freeze go?
Is it the radiator? Where the water or coolant should go?

+1 All I know is you're not supposed to put it straight into the car (said it on my dad's anti-freeze bottle) maybe mix it and then put it in?

I'd check what's in the car before I did a coolant change for the sake of it. Ten minutes is a tad optimistic if bleeding etc is required.

spadder

If your not sure, be careful about air locking the system and heater matrix.
Most modern cars are well protected, if your not losing coolant, leave it alone.

Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

I'd check what's in the car before I did a coolant change for the sake of it. Ten minutes is a tad optimistic if bleeding etc is required.

Indeed, if you're going to do this properly your looking at an hour plus. Depending on the engine, you have to get the car up, drain the radiator and drain the engine block. Then refill with distilled water and coolant and then properly bleed the system which in itself can take up to and over 30 minutes to do properly.

A good trick is to drive the front wheels up on a ramp or kerb and set the heater to maximum heat, and then start bleeding.

JHMEG

Rather than buying anti-freeze you potentially won't need, buy an anti-freeze hydrometer (tester). A lot cheaper at €7.49 and you can take it from car to car.



http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_530559_langId_-1_categoryId_212616

Matt Simis

Flyer1 wrote: »

It's not a big job, takes 10 minutes for the average enthusiast.

You can drain, bleed and refill a car in under 10min? Unless you mean a top up, but that would imply you are driving around with the coolant underfilled to begin with.

When I looked it up for my current cars they were recommending disconnecting the lower Rad hose, which to get to on its own is nearly 10min. Then the constant "is there an air bubble/lock in the system?", worry Id have for weeks later.. can do without that.

I dont think a night time drop to -10c is going to warrant doing anything, protection down to -10c doesnt require massive quantities of alcohols in water. It was minus -7.6 where I am already and had no apparent issue starting either car, one of them was left for nearly 2wks in this weather without being run and it fired right up.

Seweryn

Flyer1 wrote: »

Irish people always seem to neglect things such as coolant, gearbox oil etc.

Especially the gearbox oil. I usually change it just after buying a car and I never bought a car (never got a chance) that this would be done by the previous owner - he usually has no idea if the oil is actually there (but "it's grand, the gears are tight, etc.").

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont think a night time drop to -10c is going to warrant doing anything,

Indeed. Last time I used a hydrometer used on an A4 that had a bit o' tap water in it, the hydrometer showed a freezing point of -27.

beachlife

Matt Simis wrote: »

You can drain, bleed and refill a car in under 10min? Unless you mean a top up, but that would imply you are driving around with the coolant underfilled to begin with.

When I looked it up for my current cars they were recommending disconnecting the lower Rad hose, which to get to on its own is nearly 10min. Then the constant "is there an air bubble/lock in the system?", worry Id have for weeks later.. can do without that.

I dont think a night time drop to -10c is going to warrant doing anything, protection down to -10c doesnt require massive quantities of alcohols in water. It was minus -7.6 where I am already and had no apparent issue starting either car, one of them was left for nearly 2wks in this weather without being run and it fired right up.

-10 doesn't warrant doing any thing!! seriously?? The problem is if you have your car dealer serviced from new or KNOW it has coolant/anti-freeze in it
Then don't even think of checking it.But if you've been "topping up" or had work done CHEAP on the car I'd be checking to see if it was water or coolant in the expansion tank!! Now your car will start fine and run fine the problem will be that if/when the water in the engine block freezes it expands and one of two things can happen:
1. it pushes out the frost plugs in your engine and when you start it you loose all your coolant.
2. it cracks the head/block.

JHMEG

beachlife wrote: »

-10 doesn't warrant doing any thing!! seriously?? The problem is if you have your car dealer serviced from new or KNOW it has coolant/anti-freeze in it
Then don't even think of checking it.But if you've been "topping up" or had work done CHEAP on the car I'd be checking to see if it was water or coolant in the expansion tank!! Now your car will start fine and run fine the problem will be that if/when the water in the engine block freezes it expands and one of two things can happen:
1. it pushes out the frost plugs in your engine and when you start it you loose all your coolant.
2. it cracks the head/block.

Buy a hydrometer and check the coolant in the rad. The expansion tank means nothing. What's in your rad is what's in your engine.

JHMEG

JHMEG wrote: »

Buy a hydrometer and check the coolant in the rad. The expansion tank means nothing. What's in your rad is what's in your engine.

Amazingly enough whats in the rad will be what's in the radiator, both being part of a closed system that the coolant circulates through when the thermostat is open.

beachlife

depends on the car.but yes you are right to go straight to the rad if you can.On fords and vw etc whats in the expansion bottle is what's in the rad so no worries there. any car with a rad cap :check the rad.
any car with out a rad cap :check the expansion tank

Flyer1

Matt Simis wrote: »

You can drain, bleed and refill a car in under 10min? Unless you mean a top up, but that would imply you are driving around with the coolant underfilled to begin with.
up.

Drain, bleed and re-fill, yes. With the right tools it's a very quick job.

Matt Simis

beachlife wrote: »

-10 doesn't warrant doing any thing!! seriously?? The problem is if you have your car dealer serviced from new or KNOW it has coolant/anti-freeze in it
Then don't even think of checking it.But if you've been "topping up" or had work done CHEAP on the car I'd be checking to see if it was water or coolant in the expansion tank!! Now your car will start fine and run fine the problem will be that if/when the water in the engine block freezes it expands and one of two things can happen:
1. it pushes out the frost plugs in your engine and when you start it you loose all your coolant.
2. it cracks the head/block.

Dont quite me out of context. Chemically -10c isnt any big deal to alcohols (which are whats in antifreeze). Only a small amount of alcohol is required to maintain viscosity down to -10. -10 will likely appears during a period when people arent driving and for a few hours. The temp in the car will not drop to -10c either (as its surrounded and not exposed, mix of chemicals, latent heat in the liquids, engine etc).

Furthermore Coolant is used to raise the boiling point as well as drop the freezing. If you had insufficent coolant to protect at -10 then I would wager you have insufficient coolant to stop the mainly water boiling in the cooling system (which would have become apparent by now). So its generally fair to say its unlikely people are driving around with only water in there (they wouldnt survive hot or cold days). The fact coolant is coloured and smells is also a tell tale that its not just water. But fine, be an alarmist.

How much required?
Methanol (METHYL ALCOHOL) Conc.
Vol.% ---Freezing Point,F ---Flash Point,F


0

---

32f

---

No Flash
13

---

20f

---

130f
24

---

0f

---

110f
35

---

15f

---

95f
46

---

40f

---

85f
56

---

65f

---

75f
66

---

95f

---

70f
75

---

115f

---

60f
83

---

125f

---

55f
92

---

130f

---

55f
100

---

144f

---

55f

24% Methanol mixed with regular water drops the solutiuons freezing point to 0F (or -18celcius). So a tiny 15-17% (given the sharp increase in performance above 13%) out of your entire coolant supply would in theory protect past -10c, which will not be a maintained ambient temp anyhow.

Flyer1

Flyer1 wrote: »

Drain, bleed and re-fill, yes. With the right tools it's a very quick job.

On the vast majority of cars, not a hope
- have car ready to drain coolant
- jack it up if required
- drain coolant
- redo whatever you opened to drain
- mix fresh coolant with water
- locate and open bleed screws if there are any
- fill slowly and steadily until coolant runs from bleedscrew
- tighten up bleedscrew and fill up
- give all hoses a squeeze while she heats up to ensure no air in hoses
- allow her to heat up till fan comes on, check level again, top up as required

Ten mins, no chance.

JHMEG

RoverJames wrote: »

Amazingly enough whats in the rad will be what's in the radiator

Apologies, I meant what's in the exp tank

Hal1

Would it be good practise though to do this job though? Even if the coolant in use is ok, what about the stuff in the rad? Does it circulate or just remain there in the rad? thanks.

The water pump pumps it around, once the engine is up to temperature the thermostat opens and the water / coolant mix flows around the rad, engine & associated pipework.

Flyer1

RoverJames wrote: »

On the vast majority of cars, not a hope
- have car ready to drain coolant
- jack it up if required
- drain coolant
- redo whatever you opened to drain
- mix fresh coolant with water
- locate and open bleed screws if there are any
- fill slowly and steadily until coolant runs from bleedscrew
- tighten up bleedscrew and fill up
- give all hoses a squeeze while she heats up to ensure no air in hoses
- allow her to heat up till fan comes on, check level again, top up as required

Ten mins, no chance.

Talk about making a silk purse out of a sows ear ! It's a wicked handy job lad, as is changing gear oil or any of the basic tasks ! Then again you have to take in to account the type of car you are doing it on.

Today I did it on a 1.6 mk2 Golf, i'm sure as you know is an extremely basic machine to do anything on. I did it on my Integra a few weeks ago, that was a bit of a pain because I had to change the stat aswell and its located in the most awkward **** of a place. All in all, still a 20 -> 25 minute job on that, and it's a bitch of a car to work on !

beachlife

Matt Simis wrote: »

Dont quite me out of context. Chemically -10c isnt any big deal to alcohols (which are whats in antifreeze). Only a small amount of alcohol is required to maintain viscosity down to -10. -10 will likely appears during a period when people arent driving and for a few hours. The temp in the car will not drop to -10c either (as its surrounded and not exposed, mix of chemicals, latent heat in the liquids, engine etc).

Furthermore Coolant is used to raise the boiling point as well as drop the freezing. If you had insufficent coolant to protect at -10 then I would wager you have insufficient coolant to stop the mainly water boiling in the cooling system (which would have become apparent by now). So its generally fair to say its unlikely people are driving around with only water in there (they wouldnt survive hot or cold days). The fact coolant is coloured and smells is also a tell tale that its not just water. But fine, be an alarmist.

How much required?
Methanol (METHYL ALCOHOL) Conc.
Vol.% ---Freezing Point,F ---Flash Point,F


0

---

32f

---

No Flash
13

---

20f

---

130f
24

---

0f

---

110f
35

---

15f

---

95f
46

---

40f

---

85f
56

---

65f

---

75f
66

---

95f

---

70f
75

---

115f

---

60f
83

---

125f

---

55f
92

---

130f

---

55f
100

---

144f

---

55f

24% Methanol mixed with regular water drops the solutiuons freezing point to 0F (or -18celcius). So a tiny 15-17% (given the sharp increase in performance above 13%) out of your entire coolant supply would in theory protect past -10c, which will not be a maintained ambient temp anyhow.

Sorry Matt I didn't mean to quote you out of context.The point I was trying to get across was that people should check IF there car has coolant/antifreeze or water in their cooling system. That's all.
And if it's just water(easily spotted as you explained) then get some anti freeze/coolant.As for the car over heating with only water in it,I feel that is unlikely.when we race we are not allowed to use coolant because if it spills on the track it's deadly(very slippy) So it's just plain water.no overheating problems (so far!!)

Matt Simis

beachlife wrote: »

Sorry Matt I didn't mean to quote you out of context.The point I was trying to get across was that people should check IF there car has coolant/antifreeze or water in their cooling system. That's all.
And if it's just water(easily spotted as you explained) then get some anti freeze/coolant.As for the car over heating with only water in it,I feel that is unlikely.when we race we are not allowed to use coolant because if it spills on the track it's deadly(very slippy) So it's just plain water.no overheating problems (so far!!)

Well Im still going to buy that tester device JHMEG linked, better safe than sorry. Do you really not need coolant in the water for racing? Not that Ive ever tested, but the boiling point without coolant is so low I would have thought of all scenarios you would have issues there!

I guess when water is under pressure the boiling point increases, which might explain away some of this. Although conversely water under pressure has a higher freezing point too!

beachlife

Your spot on Matt! The water in the cooling system doesn't boil because its keep under pressure. Which is why they say NEVER open a rad cap when hot,because the presure is released and then you get rapid expansion of the water and it flies out of the hole everywhere!!
So this pressure will as you say also reduces the freezing point of water so the tester is a great idea!! I have a snap-on one and there great,my old car is currently protected to -24
I would try to get the plastic one though as the glass ones break very easily.
Most motor factors sell the sealy ones which are cheap enough and of professional quality.

faceman

Flyer1 wrote: »

Irish people always seem to neglect things such as coolant, gearbox oil etc.

Why only Irish people?

SouperComputer

Matt Simis wrote: »

Do you really not need coolant in the water for racing? Not that Ive ever tested, but the boiling point without coolant is so low I would have thought of all scenarios you would have issues there

Coolant is a compromise fluid though right? Designed for the temp range that road cars operate. Ie not optimal for conducting heat. You can run water wetter, like RC20 which helps somewhat, but otherwise just plain old, distilled water.

I'm with JHMEG, check the coolant, then elect to flush if needed. I dont think its a good idea to advise people to flush their engines willy-nilly. If one person gets an airlock and damages their engine, its already too many.

Matt Simis

SouperComputer wrote: »

Coolant is a compromise fluid though right? Designed for the temp range that road cars operate. Ie not optimal for conducting heat. You can run water wetter, like RC20 which helps somewhat, but otherwise just plain old, distilled water.

Yeah, Water is the better heat conductor by a significant margin, but that doesnt change the fact that Coolant + Water has a higher boiling point and lower freezing point. I used to make up Freezer based water coolers for PCs, getting the max amount of water for conductivity with the minimum amount of Coolant was something I spent ages doing.

kona

faceman wrote: »

Why only Irish people?

Well it would sound quite stupid if he said " Mongolian people".:rolleyes:


Most Irish people dont look after their cars. Thats why in this weather you see loads broken down. Most dont seem to be able to change a bulb either. If they cant change a bulb I reckon that they wouldnt have a clue about coolant.

If they did look after their cars, we wouldnt see all the "oooh my turbo went" threads. or Oh I ran out of oil or the classic "Whats is CHEAPEST....."

Del2005

JHMEG wrote: »

Rather than buying anti-freeze you potentially won't need, buy an anti-freeze hydrometer (tester). A lot cheaper at €7.49 and you can take it from car to car.



http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_530559_langId_-1_categoryId_212616

Or you could just take a sample of the liquid from your rad and stick it in your freezer overnight. If it doesn't freeze your car will be fine. Saves €7.50:D

peasant

Matt Simis wrote: »

Yeah, Water is the better heat conductor by a significant margin, but that doesnt change the fact that Coolant + Water has a higher boiling point and lower freezing point.

Proper coolant has another, quite important property:

It's a rust inhibitor! Running your engine on plain tap water will rust it from the inside in a jiffy. Destilled water, due to lack of salts, is better, but properly mixed coolant is best.

Mycroft H

my car has the recomended 40 antifreeze 60 water mixture which is good to -30 celcius apparently. im not worried.

Now if we all woke up in the high artic, id start getting worried, but for here anything above 20% antifreeze is overkill in ireland, even during this cold snap

T-Square

Assumptions will make an a s s of y o u and me,
but haven't all mechanics been putting in 50/50 for some time?

T-Square

T-Square wrote: »

Assumptions will make an a s s of y o u and me,
but haven't all mechanics been putting in 50/50 for some time?

I doubt it as the cheap blue stuff that gives two year protection is 1 in 4 parts recommended.

mondeo

I put new antifreeze in my car a few weeks back, I did it approx 40% antifreeze and 60% water ... -10 should be no problem for me.