I want to be a pilot

KateC92

I'm in secondary school, and I'm thinking about becoming a pilot.
How would I go about this? Like as regards the leaving cert and then after that? Because I've a feeling this isn't through the CAO system. I really don't have a clue about pilot qualifications. Could someone fill me in please?

Flyer1

Loads of threads on here about it, but i'll give you the run down.

You need two things, money and health. CAO has absolutely nothing to do with flying, nor in fact does your leaving cert. A lot of my friends are commercial pilots without even a leaving cert.

First thing you need to see are you medically fit, book yourself a Class 1 Aviation Medcial, all relevant info on www.iaa.ie.

If you pass that, and saying you've come up with the 60 -> 70k required to train, then the fun starts.

Below is a basic run down of the airline route:
You have to do your PPL ( Private Pilots Licence ), then some hour building, then ATPL ( Airline Transport Pilots Licence ) which is basically 6 - 12 months ( depending on how hard you are studying ) of study, which you must sit 14 theory exams. Then you need to do a Multi Engine Instrument Rating ( MEIR ). Then do your MCC ( Multi Crew Course ), find a job, and do your Type Rating ( another 35k+ if you go to Ryanair ).

Now there are an infinite number of ways of flying commercially ( instruction, bush flying, meat bombing, glider towing, and my personal favourite Aerobatics ), drop me a PM if you want more help/info.

If you are choosing a school, ASK QUESTIONS, ask pilots, ask on forums, search forums, ask past students. It's not easy, it's not cheap, but it's all worth it in the end !

diverdriver

KateC92 wrote: »

I'm in secondary school, and I'm thinking about becoming a pilot.

The above is a good answer.

However I have a question for you Kate. Do you want to be a pilot or do you want to fly?

Sounds like a stupid question but it's like asking asking someone who wants to be a Doctor. Do you want to be a Doctor because it's cool or because you want to help sick people.

Being a pilot isn't as worthy or well paid as a Doctor but the comparision is valid.

I wanted to be a pilot so I could fly. It's not an absolute requirement but often it's the only compensation after a long day, after a long week and being away from home a lot or working weekends all the time and getting very tired. The compensation is the view outside your office window and the sense of being out of this world for a time.

Quite simply if I didn't enjoy the flying so much. I would have walked away from it sometime ago. Because it simply isn't worth the hassle of being a pilot unless you get something back from it.

Being a pilot is not the job it was, it's not as well paid, not secure, not as interesting. There are many, many better jobs out there careerwise. So your motivation to be pilot needs to be addressed.

So which is it?

Rowley Birkin QC

Another option is to try for the Air Corps Cadets. Be warned though it is a very tough process. I applied twice, '02 & '03 after spending some time in a 4 seater plane with my uncle. Got through the first interview both times but didn't make it past the aptitude tests unfortunately. Though the experience itself is nearly worth it, interviews are held at Baldonnell and I basically got a guided tour from a cadet while waiting to be called for my interview, very decent people.

Not sure when the next competition is open but there is more info here.

triple-M

DCU are launching a new course in aviation not sure if it would be totally relevant or not but i posted the link to it anyways if you want to check it out

http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=AMPS&mode=full&originating_school

Bugnug

KateC92 wrote: »

I'm in secondary school, and I'm thinking about becoming a pilot.
How would I go about this? Like as regards the leaving cert and then after that? Because I've a feeling this isn't through the CAO system. I really don't have a clue about pilot qualifications. Could someone fill me in please?

Just remember that wok in this field is incredibly difficult to come by and it wont get any better. I have a cosin and a friend of a friend who are both qualified pilots and they just cant get work. It is also extremely exspensive to become a pilot and when you are out of work you have to pay a hefty annual fee to keep your licence up to date.

COYW

Some sound advice there KateC92. I like you always liked the idea of being a pilot. I have completed my PPL now and love flying but have deferred my ATPL because it just doesnt make sense for me to invest 50K or so in it at the moment. I know qualified pilots who cant get work and some of them are now working as instructors struggling to get by. The have huge debt from flying and earn half what I do at the moment. I am starting my Multi-Engine Instrument Rating next year and will review my ATPL plans once I have completed that. I will also be debt free at that point (assuming I keep my current job).

At leaving cert age, I planned my future with the end aim of becoming a commerical pilot. It was simple, go to uni, get a good qualification and then work my way through my piloting off the back of my job. If, god forbid, something happened on the medical front and I was unable to fly commerically anymore, I then had my degree and masters and few years experience to fall back on.

Finally, I would recommend that you pay a visit to the closest, reputable flying school, take an introductory flight and see if you like it. If so, then complete your PPL over the next 2 years or so. Whether I have a career in piloting or not, I see my using PPL for many years to come.

diverdriver

Bugnug wrote: »

you have to pay a hefty annual fee to keep your licence up to date.

Not quite, the expense is in keeping your skills up to date. Even a few weeks away from flying erodes your skills. You have to stay current and that means flying and practising meaningful exercises with an Instructor. That's expensive. You also have to renew the Instrument rating annually for example. That's very expensive. Then there's the medical, that's seriously expensive. You also have to fly a minimum number of hours a year to keep the licence current.

There a lot of people out there who finished flight school in the last year barely keeping current and desperately hanging on. The problem for them is that when a job comes up. They will be tested in the simulator. If they haven't been flying enough. They will fail.

But that's today and things may be better when Kate leaves school. My advice to Kate is to concentrate on her school right now and think of College doing something she's interested in and which pays well enough to fund pilot training. You can go straight into pilot training after leaving school if you have the money. But it's not alway advisable. Most pilots finally get qualified around their mid twenties or older, sometimes a lot older.

KateC92

Thanks very much for the advice everyone!!! I have a lot to think about, I didn't realise that it was so expensive to become qualified! I'd say I'll probably just study engineering like I was thinking about before so that I have something to fall back on and see if I still want to be a pilot in a few years. Because there is no way that I will come by that kind of money any time soon. And I would want to be sure that I love flying enough. Thanks very much for replying!!!

diverdriver

Now I can see your interest, engineering. Being a pilot while technical, far too technical sometimes is not so much mechanical as an art form at times.

Get your engineering degree and then thinking about it sounds like a good plan.

The irony about becoming a pilot these days is that you don't actually need any form of educational qualifications to start training as a pilot. Which is actually amazing considering the status of the job and the responsibility. All you really need is basic, reeding, ritin', addin and subtracting and be able to make yourself understood in English and you can present yourself at most flying schools hand over wads of cash and off you go. Of course you do have to pass 14 exams during training. But they aren't as tough as some people make them out to be.

Now some flights schools for certain course and the military expect certain standards. But outside that none are required.

Most people outside the business are unaware of this. So admonishing your son or daughter to study hard for their leaving certificate if they want to become a pilot is pretty pointless.

Of course if you're as thick as two short planks or lazy and slow. You'll never make it through.

It's a strange thing. I can't think of many professions with such a low pre entry standard.

InTheTrees

diverdriver wrote: »

Then there's the medical, that's seriously expensive.

"seriously" expensive? I have a ppl so i'm only required to have a Class3 medical but in the US that only costs $80.

You're probably talking about the Commercial pilot class 1 medical, how much does that cost in Ireland?

diverdriver

Hah, it costs €55 to visit your GP for five minutes to renew a prescription here. That's nearly 80 bucks. I don't know what a class 2 costs but probably a bit more than that.

I renewed my class 1 medical recently. That only cost about €280 for less than half an hour of routine checks. Depending on what tests they do, it can cost more. The initial is about twice that.

Yep, seriously expensive.

The cheapest medical I ever had was an FAA class 1 medical from an Irish doctor, who died only recently. He refused any payment. If there's pilot/doctor heaven he's there now.

Cessna_Pilot

diverdriver wrote: »

Hah, it costs €55 to visit your GP for five minutes to renew a prescription here. That's nearly 80 bucks. I don't know what a class 2 costs but probably a bit more than that.

I renewed my class 1 medical recently. That only cost about €280 for less than half an hour of routine checks. Depending on what tests they do, it can cost more. The initial is about twice that.

Yep, seriously expensive.

The cheapest medical I ever had was an FAA class 1 medical from an Irish doctor, who died only recently. He refused any payment. If there's pilot/doctor heaven he's there now.

Sorry for the off topic, but I recently renewed my Class one in the UK. Including petrol to/from and parking at DUB, flight over and back to Gatwick, taxi to and from the medical centre and dinner in the airport plus some Christmas shopping it cost me less than the price of the revalidation in Ireland on an IAA licence.

InTheTrees

Ow. And a class one has to be renewed every year right?

Cessna_Pilot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ow. And a class one has to be renewed every year right?

Class one every year, if it lapses it reverts to a class 2 medical, which is valid for 5 years from date of issue, and is basically what a "Private" pilot licence would have.

Naked Lepper

diverdriver wrote: »

The cheapest medical I ever had was an FAA class 1 medical from an Irish doctor, who died only recently. He refused any payment. If there's pilot/doctor heaven he's there now.

it wasnt dr crowley in leixlip near weston airfield? (long shot but sounds like the same guy)

diverdriver

No Doc Killeen, of Mountjoy Square. RIP. He had an aircraft based in Weston for years.

Hi Guys,

Can I jump in here and ask a question, I'm sure its probably been asked before so forgive me if it has.

Currently with the world economy in turmoil at the moment the aviation industry obviously following suit what are the prospects for currently just qualified pilots.
I am strongly thinking about getting my CPL as its always been a dream but should I wait for the industry to pick up again.

Regards,
Phil

McNulty737

[quote=[Deleted User];64653727]Hi Guys,

Can I jump in here and ask a question, I'm sure its probably been asked before so forgive me if it has.

Currently with the world economy in turmoil at the moment the aviation industry obviously following suit what are the prospects for currently just qualified pilots.
I am strongly thinking about getting my CPL as its always been a dream but should I wait for the industry to pick up again.

Regards,
Phil[/QUOTE]

The answer to your question unfortunately is that the prospects for just qualified pilots is practically zero. If you're lucky you can get an interview with ryanair, who are just about the only airline hiring due to their continued expansion, but then you have to pay 30 grand for your own type rating. And there is a myth about ryanair that you just pay the money and get the job, but that is very untrue, its said that around 1 in 5 people who go for a sim assesment with ryanair get accepted, they look for a very high standard.

Of the people i know who qualified and had a ryanair interview and didnt get it, most have 'given up' completely, or at least until the world economy improves and there are opportunites and the rest are in the world of hurt that has already been mentioned on this thread ie. renewing their licence and medical every year in the hope of an interview popping up.

While i think its still the best job in the world, i just could not advise anyone to train now due to the very remote prospects of getting a job, and i've told several people who have come to me asking for advice about it, its never what they want to hear but its how i really feel at least until airlines are hiring again.

P.S

Never listen to FTO sales people, they will promise you the world in order to take your money.

Hi McNulty737,

That's the answer I didn't want but, was expecting...thanks a million.

I'm 27 now and ever since I was 8 and saw "Top Gun" for the first time (don't laugh) I've wanted to fly. I don't care about pay etc I just want to fly. I was away on holiday a few weeks ago and it just hit me, i should do what I have always wanted to do instead of sitting infront of a PC in the office all day, not that I'm complaining, I feel very lucky to have a job in these times.

But as you said, things are not good at the moment so I should wait. What I might do is save up a bit of money and go for my PPL. Atleast Ill have that section under my belt and can do a bit of recreational flying once qualified, then when the economy and aviation industry picks up again which it will, then Ill look to obtain my CPL.

I presume you are a pilot yourself? How are you finding things?

Regards,

Phil

airvan

That sounds like a good plan Phil. Start flying just because you like it. You're still young enough at 27 to wait five years or more for a job. When I started flying it traditionally took years, usually Instructing before you got the break. It shouldn't be as bad this time.

You best bet is to start saving now so that when you start serious training you won't be in debt. A lot of people who qualified recently have that problem.

I would agree with McNulty on Ryanair. Just because they still need pilots doesn't mean they have lowered their standards. I know one or two people who thought they would walk into Ryanair because they had the money. It's not true.

Now they all want my little job. It wasn't good enough for them when times were good.:rolleyes:

yhwh

Been quietly saving away for the past couple of years and am now in a postion to sign up on a full time integrated course without getting into any debt. Should also have enough for a type rating at the other end if I need it. Figure by the time I finish (1 and a half to two years) the market will have picked up. At least that's the hope

Keep saving away as the more you have the less you'll have to give to a bank on the other side.

McNulty737

Hey Phil,

Yeah im a pilot and really just feel extremely lucky to be getting paid to fly because the industry is really on its knees at the moment.

I think your idea of going slow and doing a ppl and some hours is exactly the right thing to do now, take things slow, slow, slow. In my experience the importance of the ppl is really overlooked, the skills you learn for the ppl are going to be the foundations of your hopefully long and successful flying career. Its extremely important to find good, experienced instructors - so its very important to do your research and if ever you dont feel happy with your instructor, find another one. I was lucky to have a really great instructor when i did my ppl, and i only flew with him right up to my skills test, not one single other instructor....i honestly dont know if i would have made it to an airline if i had had a lesser instructor because when it came to the cpl and ir i flew with some really crap instructors and it made me realise that good instructors are worth their weight in gold.

Anyway back to the point, slowly taking lessons towards your ppl now sounds like a sensible idea. After you do your ppl i THINK you need 100 solo hours to then commence your cpl as well as having completed your atpl exams (perhaps someone could confirm this?).

It makes alot more sense to do things slowly now rather than take on massive debt and go integrated only to find yourself competing with literally thousands of people for pretty much zero jobs in 18 months. You would be in a nice position, if and when things pick up, if you had just gotten your ppl, some nice hour building and maybe getting ready to start the atpl exams. If you see airlines hiring again then you know its time to commit and go for the cpl and instrument rating because i think you will have a better chance of getting interviews if you have just finished training and your skills are fresh as opposed to people who have been doing the minimum to keep their licences current for 2-3 years. Also your age is not a factor, for example when i was doing line training i befriended another guy who was also line training and he was 38, he's in the right seat now based in dublin.

Anyway best of luck with whatever you decide.

Thanks guys,
I really do appreciate the advice.

I have just dug out the 7 volumes of Trevor Thom's books on everything you need to know about the private pilots licence, i'm sure they are out of date by a few years but the principles are probably the same.

Can you tell me is there anything I can do to prepare for the PPL in the mean time while I get the funds together?
My thoughts were that I would pick up Microsoft flight sim and maybe the hardware to go with it as in the stick and feet rudder controls etc and practice on that. I'm not sure how realistic it is in terms of planning flights etc.

I was also thinking there may be some videos etc that I might be able to pick up.

My goal is that when the time comes to do the PPL in a few months that I will be well prepared for it, does anyone have any other suggestions that might help me prepare?

Regards,
Phil

airvan

There are always big arguments as to whether or not flight sim is any help. If you do use it don't concentrate on the instruments as the first thing you'll be taught is attitude flying and looking out using the horizon as a reference. Also it's pretty poor at simulating trim unless you have very good hardware. When it comes to landings. I don't think it helps at all. The cues used for a good landing barely exist in flight sim.

I would suggest reading a lesson in the book and them attempting to simulate it bearing in mind that some of the simulated aircraft handle quite differently to the real thing. But even if they did simulate them correctly. The hardware has to be top notch to demonstrate it.

So it's good an bad. Just don't assume what you learn from it bears any relation to reality. It might but it might not. You can't know until you're sitting in the left seat of a real aircraft.

Cooter

alot of great advice here, I want to do my ppl and cpl now but as was said above there is no work.
I want to fly, always have and took an intro course into flying when i was 14 back in 1994.
I understand the costs the work and dedication needed to do this full time,
and i know i must do the medical first, but i'm 30 now and out of work and as far as i can see Ireland is not going to pull out of its current situation anytime soon
and no matter what i could go and study in third level as a mature student there still won't be a job for me so what i'm thinking is,
is there work for pilots anywhere around the world?
because at this point when your down like i am the only way is up so now is the time maybe to go after the dream.
I'm sure i can release enough funds 60k ish it will put pressure on the family but when i finish in 2 years i'll be able to instruct ppl and i don't nessesarily want to fly passenger jets,
just work flying in the left hand seat no matter what the size of aircraft.
with this outlook and not maybe flying passenger jets is there a living to be made flying and enough so that i'll still be able to afford to pay off debts training myself in my dream job??

thanks and any advice would be greatly recieved!

xflyer

There is work for pilots around the world, check out PARC website, check out the Rishworth Aviation website. Then check out the requirements, type rated experienced airline pilots. Therein lies the problem. You need to be an experienced pilot to get those jobs. So where do you get the experience? Yes it's the proverbial catch 22.

Ah but you say you don't want to be an airline pilot necessarily, Instructing or flying anything will keep you happy. The trouble with those kind of jobs is that they don't pay the bills. Work out how long it would take to earn the €60k while being paid at €25 an hour? Let's make it easy that's 2400 hours. But it will cost you more than €60k to train. There are other flying jobs but they don't pay well either, sometimes they don't pay at all. I know that from experience. Worse many of them require more experience than a newly qualified pilot has. Bush flying, para dropping etc. There are hardly any of those jobs in Ireland anyway and the locals get those jobs abroad.

You say that it will put pressure on the family. Again from experience it will. I'm assuming you are married. Can she carry you for two years? Pay all the bills, put up with you being gone? Then when qualified can she carry you until you find a job, a low paid job? By low pay I mean less than the current or new minimum wage. What about Ryanair, they pay well but most likely they will base you somewhere outside of Ireland. Are you prepared for that? Of course they will be looking for you to pay for your own type rating. Another €25 to €30k. Imagine how impressed she'll be when you have to borrow money off her to buy her a Christmas or birthday present. Been there too.

To answer your final question, it is hard to make a living flying anything other than as an airline pilot. Those jobs that do exist are seen as stepping stones to airline jobs and are low paid with long hours. To give you can example. I heard of a skydive job in the US. The pilot was expected to have over 1500 hours, work seven days a week, help out with everything from washing the plane to maintenance. Total expected pay? About $20k.

Ultimately if you want to do it. Aim to be an airline pilot, let's be honest Ryanair or similar. Then eventually you can get one of those jobs advertised on PARC or others.

I'm sorry if I'm being relentlessly negative. But that's the reality. One of the reasons I am currently gradually disengaging myself from full time piloting. I too had dreamy notions of what it was like to be a pilot. You know things have changed when you're glad a day's flying is cancelled even though it's probably going to cost you a couple of hundred Euro.

Cooter

I don't think your being relentlessly negative any advice is a must so you think if i had the extra 30k for cadetship that would be the only way to go?
If this is the only realistic option if say i get 80-90k do my cpl which will take up to 2 years and a cadetship how long would the cadetship last that is if accepted after the assessment and if i made it through that how long before i would end up PIC and if not PIC what kind of wages would i expect as first officer or PIC begining or as TREs, TRIs and SFIs??
i could happily survive on 20k per year as of now i'm surving on 14k p/y
thats not impossible to clear my debts for training and to get to PIC and making some real money while living the dream but money and real life first!!![no blind folds here]

I am married but she won't be carrying me i have other family members! and i know the time away will be annoying for her and the kids but their probably sick looking at me at the mo! and as far as being based away i think in the current economy she wouldn't mind getting outta Ireland herself!!

Are you working for ryanair or are you working flying at all at the min and how long have you been flying comercialy??

rob88

look at this blog http://pilotcourseireland.com/

this guy trained with the crowd in waterford.. took him i think a year and a half after he was qualified and after paying for a type rating himself that he finally got a job.. i think he got a job with aer arann

xflyer

I very much doubt the guy on the blog got Aer Arann. If anything they are likely to shed jobs. It looks like somewhere in Europe. I won't say who because he has chosen not to say. Bear in mind that for him to get to that point. He has to have spent over €120k by now. PTC where he trained is expensive. Then there was the money spent to stay current and now the type rating.

Cooter, no the extra 30k is not the only way to go. But for Ryanair and frankly Aer Arann if they survive it is. I wouldn't worry to much about command at this point. Getting a job, any job is the immediate problem. Command comes in it's own good time. In Aer Lingus, you are talking quite a few years. Ryanair quicker. Pay? Check this out http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/ But you can live quite well as a first officer. The cadetship in the likes of Ryanair last as long as you fly under supervision, only then you get paid. This is not neccessarily true of other airlines.

No I don't work for Ryanair. But know plenty who do. I've been flying commercially for a while but at the lower end of the scale as you might guess. I too would happily survive on 20k PA. Maybe not happily but better than I do now.

Check out PPRuNe. Some people don't like it but there's plenty of info there and plenty of realism and experience.

My main point to you is that outside the airlines there are few jobs. Those that exist are low paid, long hours and temporary and mostly overseas. That's why most people attempt to go to the airlines. But they too are for the most part long hours, temporary and mostly overseas. But they are better paid.

Try and avoid seeing it as the dream job by the way. The more practical your approach to it the better.

InTheTrees

I know nothing about commercial aviation but...

If you have the passion and the drive then I say Go For It,; in a few years when you're qualified the economic situation will be better (its starting to look that way now) and hopefully demand will rise.

I think something important to remember is that older more qualified pilots are retiring all the time, even if they dont have a job. Imagine all those laid off airline pilots who cant remain current and drop out of the profession?