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Duplicate Accounts - What is the official policy?
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31-12-2009 9:27am#1For years I have asked for an official policy on duplicate accounts and I have never gotten a response that has been clear or satisfactory. In my opinion people should just have one account and if found to be using a duplicate to be forced to use just one or if its found they have used other account(s) to disrupt boards be banned permanently.
It appears from this post on a feedback thread that it is accepted and allowed. So does this mean that we all can set up multiple accounts that we can use on boards depending what mood we are in etc etc. If this is the case then we are moving this site further away from idea that its an online community and more to just being a place that is used by people and not contributed by people. I'd really appreciate a clear answer to this.
Oh I do see the point where a duplicate account should exist for a user who represents a company on the "talk to" forums. It makes sense to separate a corporate entity from an individual. That should be the only exception.0
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The policy has been (for as long as I've known):
- Alt account for nefarious deeds -> not allowed.
- Alt account for innocuous deeds -> tolerated but not recommended.
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The policy has been (for as long as I've known):
Alt account for nefarious deeds -> not allowed.
That goes without saying....Alt account for innocuous deeds -> tolerated but not recommended.
What exactly does "not recommended" mean. Either its allowed or not. This kind of wishy washy explanation is what is making me sick of boards at the moment. Make a decision and stick to it. Why as a member of this community should I be expected to engage with another user who is not prepared to post using their normal ID?
What constitutes a nefarious deed? In my opinion posting your opinion but not willing to stand by it using your normal account is dishonest and cowardly and I would classify it as nefarious.
Allowing alternative accounts when people have accounts that they are already using goes totally against the idea of an online community. Either boards is an online community or its just a place for people to use others for information.
Why will boards not instigate a policy of one user one account. Can you please explain in detail (ie not a couple of bullet points please) why this is not the case already? And then can you explain why having multiple accounts is allowed?0 -
What exactly does "not recommended" mean.
I meant: "if you want people to take you seriously, build a reputation of being a constructive and helpful poster". It's kinda hard to do that if you keep dumping accounts and starting again.Either its allowed or not. This kind of wishy washy explanation is what is making me sick of boards at the moment. Make a decision and stick to it. Why as a member of this community should I be expected to engage with another user who is not prepared to post using their normal ID?
You're not expected to engage with anyone you don't want to.
Besides, what's the value of the poster's "normal ID"? Your username is worth something because you've put years of work into building a body of useful posts associated with it. Most usernames do not have that kind of value, so you should be wary of assigning any to them.What constitutes a nefarious deed?
Re-regging to work around a ban primarily. Re-regging to get a throwaway account banned and save their primary account is another variant on that theme.In my opinion posting your opinion but not willing to stand by it using your normal account is dishonest and cowardly and I would classify it as nefarious.
That's neither inherently nefarious or not, just silly.
Put it this way, if the OP in the "Mods not Gods" thread posted with a username with a long history of being helpful on the site they'd have a much bigger chance of effecting change.Why will boards not instigate a policy of one user one account. Can you please explain in detail (ie not a couple of bullet points please) why this is not the case already?
It's mostly this way for two reasons: 1) most dupe accounts are banned anyway and 2) hunting down the dupe accounts not used for mischief is a lot of work for little value. To successfully enforce a "one person, one account" rule, we'd have to get a lot better at detection. Often we don't have enough information to catch ban-evaders reliably, so I don't know how we'd track down innocuous duplicate accounts.
To illustrate, how would you tell the difference between the following two scenarios:
Scenario A: Two people share a computer. One is interested in Soccer and posts exclusively in the Soccer forum. One is interested in Rugby and posts exclusively in the Rugby forum. Both are well-behaved, useful contributors to the site.
Scenario B: One person has two accounts, one for posting in Soccer, one for posting in Rugby. Both accounts are used for well-behaved, useful contributions.
There are no technical things that would separate those scenarios. You'd be 100% relying on analysis of the posts for both accounts and in most cases that's not good enough to call it a match.And then can you explain why having multiple accounts is allowed?
You already acknowledge that an exception should be made for official rep. accounts. Are there absolutely no other exceptions acceptable to you?
Example 1:
Imagine someone has a main account which they have used for many years. They've posted in lots of forums, shared a lot of their life, gone to a few beers, etc. They're moderately well-known here even if they're not explicitly identifiable. Now imagine that person wants to post on something they consider sensitive to them but the appropriate forum does not allow anonymous posting.- Is it fair to force them to post sensitive material with a well-known account?
- What harm do they do to the site by using an alt. account?
Example 2:
A mod of Hunting wishes to post in Animal Welfare. (Picking 2 "opposing" forums here; this is not a real scenario AFAIK.) They know that because "Mod: Hunting" is under their name they're going to attract flak and cause trouble for the mods of Animal Welfare. The fact that they hunt has no bearing on the topic at hand, they're just pitching in on a topic about dog care.- Which causes less harm, a dupe account or using the primary account?
- Is it OK for mods and not users? If so, why?
Here's one way of analyzing what to do with duplicate accounts:
|New Account Bad|New Account Good
Old Account Bad|Ban both accounts|Maybe the user has learned and wishes to become a useful member of the site. Should we not allow that?
Old Account Good|Ban new account|Where's the harm?
Can you offer an alternative analysis?0 -
I meant: "if you want people to take you seriously, build a reputation of being a constructive and helpful poster". It's kinda hard to do that if you keep dumping accounts and starting again.
Of course and that's my argument to the OP that I referenced.You're not expected to engage with anyone you don't want to.
Of course but if having an alternative account becomes the way forward then I would be forced to ignore everyone.Besides, what's the value of the poster's "normal ID"? Your username is worth something because you've put years of work into building a body of useful posts associated with it. Most usernames do not have that kind of value, so you should be wary of assigning any to them.
Yes again no argument from me on this, it is precisely the point I am putting across. Why have a separate account from your boards one if you want to be taken seriously.Re-regging to work around a ban primarily. Re-regging to get a throwaway account banned and save their primary account is another variant on that theme.That's neither inherently nefarious or not, just silly.
You may consider it silly that someone is prepared to post up threads where they are questioning peoples abilities to moderate without having the honesty to use their original ID but I don't. Know who is posting the query goes a long way to considering whether it is a valid point or one posted out of malice due to previous behaviour.Put it this way, if the OP in the "Mods not Gods" thread posted with a username with a long history of being helpful on the site they'd have a much bigger chance of effecting change.
I would say they will only have a chance of initiating change if they are honest enough to post using their one ID. Once they go down the multiple personality route then I believe their opinion is invalidated.It's mostly this way for two reasons: 1) most dupe accounts are banned anyway and 2) hunting down the dupe accounts not used for mischief is a lot of work for little value. To successfully enforce a "one person, one account" rule, we'd have to get a lot better at detection. Often we don't have enough information to catch ban-evaders reliably, so I don't know how we'd track down innocuous duplicate accounts.
Who says you hunt them. Most duplicate accounts tend to become obvious immediately via posting style etc. Remember I have modded here since day one up to this Summer. The primary reason that duplicate accounts occurred was due to ban evasion. I would hazard a guess that ban evasion is still the primary cause. One user one account is the only way to honestly run a bulletin board imho.To illustrate, how would you tell the difference between the following two scenarios:
Scenario A: Two people share a computer. One is interested in Soccer and posts exclusively in the Soccer forum. One is interested in Rugby and posts exclusively in the Rugby forum. Both are well-behaved, useful contributors to the site.
If they are different people they will have different styles of posting and it would be obvious quite quickly that they are not the same person.Scenario B: One person has two accounts, one for posting in Soccer, one for posting in Rugby. Both accounts are used for well-behaved, useful contributions.
Why do they need two accounts? In this case they would be advised to choose one ID and both accounts be merged into one.There are no technical things that would separate those scenarios. You'd be 100% relying on analysis of the posts for both accounts and in most cases that's not good enough to call it a match.
Again normally in my extensive experience on Boards it is easy to spot duplicates, using posting style etc.You already acknowledge that an exception should be made for official rep. accounts. Are there absolutely no other exceptions acceptable to you?
No exceptions on the ID side no. People should have one ID on this site and that is it with the exception as stated for commercial accounts.Example 1:
Imagine someone has a main account which they have used for many years. They've posted in lots of forums, shared a lot of their life, gone to a few beers, etc. They're moderately well-known here even if they're not explicitly identifiable. Now imagine that person wants to post on something they consider sensitive to them but the appropriate forum does not allow anonymous posting.- Is it fair to force them to post sensitive material with a well-known account?
- What harm do they do to the site by using an alt. account?
Example 2:
A mod of Hunting wishes to post in Animal Welfare. (Picking 2 "opposing" forums here; this is not a real scenario AFAIK.) They know that because "Mod: Hunting" is under their name they're going to attract flak and cause trouble for the mods of Animal Welfare. The fact that they hunt has no bearing on the topic at hand, they're just pitching in on a topic about dog care.- Which causes less harm, a dupe account or using the primary account?
- Is it OK for mods and not users? If so, why?
And how often would this occur. I would hazard they would be extremely rare cases. Rather than allow people have duplicate accounts haphazardly then maybe instigate a facility to allow people in these extremely rare cases to post anon to a forum and advise the mod of that forum to redirect it to the appropriate forum. This facility would be used only for so called sensitive posts and would be pre-moderated so no bull**** posts are allowed through.Here's one way of analyzing what to do with duplicate accounts:
|New Account Bad|New Account Good
Old Account Bad|Ban both accounts|Maybe the user has learned and wishes to become a useful member of the site. Should we not allow that?
Old Account Good|Ban new account|Where's the harm?
Can you offer an alternative analysis?
|New Account Bad|New Account Good
Old Account Bad|Ban both accounts|Maybe the user has learned and wishes to become a useful member of the site. Should we not allow that? My thoughts on this were the banned user would normally be involved in some form of discussion with the admins on being allowed back. So in that case once they post constructively they should be allowed back either under their old account or a new account if there is too much overhead from their past boards existance.
Old Account Good|Ban new account|Where's the harm? The harm is if you are viewing Boards as a community then in reality someone should have one ID, in a case like this the person should be advised to decide which account they hold onto then merge both accounts into that name
I mean based on what you are saying above I could nearly have an account per forum I post in. Do you not see how ridiculous this is? Whats the limit on duplicate accounts at the same time, is it 2, 5, 10 as many as one can register?0 -
Yes again no argument from me on this, it is precisely the point I am putting across. Why have a separate account from your boards one if you want to be taken seriously.
If an account exists and nobody takes it seriously, is it really a problem?I would say they will only have a chance of initiating change if they are honest enough to post using their one ID. Once they go down the multiple personality route then I believe their opinion is invalidated.
Not necessarily invalidated IMO. Even idiot trolls are right sometimes, they just have to work harder to persuade people that they're right.
For me, there are three ways of persuading me to change something:- If you have a history of being a useful and helpful poster and you make a cogent argument.
- If you don't have a history of being an unhelpful poster and you make a very good argument.
- If my boss says so.
In other words, I'm more likely to give posters with a good history the benefit of the doubt if their argument is weak/patchy.Who says you hunt them. Most duplicate accounts tend to become obvious immediately via posting style etc. Remember I have modded here since day one up to this Summer.
Yep, definitely.
I would say though, that posting style is a dangerous thing to rely on. I've seen way too many false-positives to trust it. It's very useful as part of an investigation into duplicate accounts but it's not enough on its own.The primary reason that duplicate accounts occurred was due to ban evasion. I would hazard a guess that ban evasion is still the primary cause.
Off the top of my head, I'd say 95% would be a safe lower bound for the proportion of duplicate accounts existing to avoid bans. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much higher.One user one account is the only way to honestly run a bulletin board imho.
"One person, one account" or "One persona, one account"? If different rules apply, why?
On a similar theme, should people be allowed post using a persona that does not match their real life one? If you allow people to post with one persona, why not many?
I can understand an objection to multiple, identical personas, but I've never seen a case of that where it wasn't a case of ban avoidance.If they are different people they will have different styles of posting and it would be obvious quite quickly that they are not the same person.
Not always. I've seen at least two false-positives on this front. i.e. People sharing a net connection (well, in one case a mobile IP pool) who post on the same topic with a very similar writing style who nonetheless are multiple real people.Why do they need two accounts? In this case they would be advised to choose one ID and both accounts be merged into one.
They don't need two accounts, they just might have some silly idea about wanting one. If neither account is a trouble account then the only person losing out is the person who has the two accounts so I fail to see why we should act against them.Again normally in my extensive experience on Boards it is easy to spot duplicates, using posting style etc.
On content, yes, but usually because it's discordant in some way. On style, it's not as reliable as you might think.No exceptions on the ID side no. People should have one ID on this site and that is it with the exception as stated for commercial accounts.
But why draw the line at commercial accounts? It seems rather arbitrary, no?And how often would this occur. I would hazard they would be extremely rare cases.
Precisely.
Legitimate duplicate accounts are so rare that it's not worth making hard and fast rules about them. It's much better to deal with them on a case-by-case basis. Adding rules or systems doesn't gain us anything appreciable.
On bad posters turned good:My thoughts on this were the banned user would normally be involved in some form of discussion with the admins on being allowed back. So in that case once they post constructively they should be allowed back either under their old account or a new account if there is too much overhead from their past boards existance.
That works well if you can persuade them to follow that system. I don't think it's constructive to ban useful users simply because they failed to follow a procedure that we have no way of forcing them to follow.
On people with multiple "good poster" accounts:The harm is if you are viewing Boards as a community then in reality someone should have one ID, in a case like this the person should be advised to decide which account they hold onto then merge both accounts into that name
Is it a community of people or personas though? If people, why not insist on more rigorous identification? If personas, why limit it to one per person? The least logical position would be "You may post with a persona that is not your real life one, but if you wish to post as multiple personas they must all be tied to one person".I mean based on what you are saying above I could nearly have an account per forum I post in. Do you not see how ridiculous this is? Whats the limit on duplicate accounts at the same time, is it 2, 5, 10 as many as one can register?
If you registered one new user per post (the logical extreme) the only person harmed is the poster. They've devalued their own posts, yes, but if that's a big deal then it's time to take a flamethrower to large chunks of AH, TCN, etc.0 -
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Conor I could go through all your points and continue to disagree with you but tbh its not worth it, we will be countering each others opinions and getting no where. You unfortunately have confirmed that there is no definite policy regarding duplicate accounts on boards and in fact it has gotten far more lax since I have stepped down from modding. Personally I believe this is a mistake and one that lessens the site in my view as an online community.0
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You unfortunately have confirmed that there is no definite policy regarding duplicate accounts on boards.
The vast majority of duplicate accounts are forbidden (because they're used to evade bans or they're astroturfing or sockpuppeting or otherwise being disruptive). The rest are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
That's about as definite a policy as you find for anything on boards.Personally I believe this is a mistake and one that lessens the site in my view as an online community.
I still don't understand how it affects the community. I understand that you don't want to go over and back on the rest of the points above, but if you could explain how the community loses out I'd very much appreciate it.0 -
The vast majority of duplicate accounts are forbidden (because they're used to evade bans or they're astroturfing or sockpuppeting or otherwise being disruptive). The rest are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
That's about as definite a policy as you find for anything on boards.
It doesn't appear to be definite at all from where I am looking at it. Twice I have reported posts where the OP of the thread I referenced has admitted having a duplicate account and they have now admitted that they did not engage with admins beforehand.
I take it from this that it is up to the individual moderators of forums to decide if duplicate accounts are allowed are not then. If you take the Politics forums as examples duplicate accounts are expressly forbidden and those found using them will be banned from there.I still don't understand how it affects the community. I understand that you don't want to go over and back on the rest of the points above, but if you could explain how the community loses out I'd very much appreciate it.
Its simple from my point of view if you want to contribute to a community then you should be prepared to stand by your opinions and words and not change your id to suit your mood etc. If you allow throwaway usernames then this place is lessened as it is nothing more than a place for users and not members.
Maybe I am holding onto the site I joined years ago where there was a real sense of community, where real friendships were made and where people had no problems standing by what their opinions were. Unfortunately I feel now that this is only happening in pockets of boards and the "user" mentality is creeping in all over the site.
Maybe I am letting my past experiences as a moderator colour my opinion of duplicate accounts and the reasons for having them. You have agreed with me and acknowledged that the vast majority of duplicate accounts are used for nefarious purposes. If you ask DeVore he will confirm with you that this has been a problem with me since day one and on any forums that I modded any found using duplicate accounts were dealt with in one manner and that was banning from access to those forums. That kind of clear cut policy is what is needed going forward and not ones that are open for interpretation.
Apologies for the delayed reply I am over with the in-laws in France so only dropping on the internet every now and then.0
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