Heating Problems

robdunne

Hi all,

I purchased and renovated a 20 year old dormer two years ago. I am now going through my second winter in the house and have become fed up that the heating system is useless.

The boiler is working fine but the rads do not heat up much at all. The boiler is situated at the rear of the house but the circulation pump is on the first floor in a storage space behind stud walls. The upstairs rads heat ok but the downstairs rads are pathetic. Also, 3 of the downstairs bedrooms have the original rads from 1987 but the rooms with new convector rads aren't heating up properly anyway.

One suggestion was to place a 2nd circulation pump on the system to boost the heat flow to the downstairs.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The plumbing in the bulk of downstairs is the original from 87 and under concrete floors. All ceiling, attic and stud wall insulation were properly upgraded along with new external walls being fitted with foil backed kingspan.

Many Thanks

Robbie

I would start by getting your heating system power flushed, making sure there is good movement around the heating system, i would then look at repositioning the pump(maybe a bigger one) if it's feasible, fitting a second pump just gives you something else to breakdown, once you can get the rads to a acceptable temperature then you can decide if they are doing there job or not, i would also look at updating the heating controls(http://www.centralheating.co.uk/system/uploads/attachments/0000/0157/CE51_CHeSS_WEB_FINAL_JULY_081.pdf) to help save you money in the long run, Gary.

items

robdunne wrote: »

Hi all,

I purchased and renovated a 20 year old dormer two years ago. I am now going through my second winter in the house and have become fed up that the heating system is useless.

The boiler is working fine but the rads do not heat up much at all. The boiler is situated at the rear of the house but the circulation pump is on the first floor in a storage space behind stud walls. The upstairs rads heat ok but the downstairs rads are pathetic. Also, 3 of the downstairs bedrooms have the original rads from 1987 but the rooms with new convector rads aren't heating up properly anyway.

One suggestion was to place a 2nd circulation pump on the system to boost the heat flow to the downstairs.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The plumbing in the bulk of downstairs is the original from 87 and under concrete floors. All ceiling, attic and stud wall insulation were properly upgraded along with new external walls being fitted with foil backed kingspan.

Many Thanks

Robbie

You could do anything, all depends on budget.

Rads have changed a lot since 80's, all rads are higher output now, back of new rad's you'll see fins. baffles all sorts, all designed to maximize the amount of hot metal to air contact.

I doubt you have high outputs (any of old ones) I'd start there, if money is tight, you could replace most important rads first and eventually you'll have all rads replaced. Rads are not to much cost wise, brand called stella rad, from heatmerchants is best price I can think of at moment. Standard single panel to do most rooms, can be just under 100 euro, not much over if so. Doubles allways cost more, if you've got space for single, go with single panel.

What I do on a lot of old houses, maybe with mirco bore pies, GB, heat loss prone pipes etc. I'll re pipe boiler up to attic, then drop new pipe work down walls to supply new rads, pipes can be concealed by being clever with drops, in corners etc. Even had a homeowner who decided to leave all pipes exposed, whole job was done with copper, looked the part as it was an old traditional type house, pipes were polsihed clean then varnished.

Start with what ever will give best perfomance, no point in replacing boiler first, if you'r thinking of it, you wont really feel the improvment.

If you have to work with what you have, best clean and flush out system with special products, have system re filled with inhibitor, service boiler, clean or replace boiler baffels. Location of circulation pump doesnt really matter, including one might help but unless system is clean, able to heat well, any amount of additional pumps wont help.

Rad valves could do with replacing, they do and will leak eventually, they also become restriced over the years, restricting flow along with return to boiler.

Clean system with clean boiler, good set of rad valves, system correctly balanced should work good, no matter how old it is. Pipe insulation might have deteriorated over the years, any exposed pipe work have insulation replaced.

Best can do for now, anything else let me know.

robdunne

The power flushing idea, will this tell if there is good movement in the system and clean out lime etc.?

Oh and thanks for all the feed back so far.

Rob

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robdunne wrote: »

The power flushing idea, will this tell if there is good movement in the system and clean out lime etc.?

Oh and thanks for all the feed back so far.

Rob

Flushing is not really designed to diagnose problems etc, when flushing starts and system starts to empty, you'll have a good idea what kind of build up your system had to run through. Lime etc is not really the prob, after water is heated in heating system it kills off lime, air etc. Most problems with old systems is build up of sludge, comes from internal corrosion, rads, boilers and so on can all rust and break down from inside. All the sludge sits @ low levels, bottom of rads, boiler heat exchanger, even rad valves. This is why some systems have trouble with heat, boiler might be grand, but heat cant travel well ( circulate) enough through sludge build up.

When flushing takes place, if right chemicals are used, all the sludge becomes broken down, real bad system will have constant black water coming out during flushing. Black stuff is bad, clean system with inhibitor introduced after flushing should stay clear, clear water in system for many years.

As you are having problems with circulation you would have to take sludge out of the equation, there would be no point fitting a second pump without making sure there is good movement around the heating system, a power flush will pretty much make things as good as the day it was fitted, there are down sides to a power flush, it may show up leaks but i would prefer to know any way.

Have a look at http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/powerflush.html for more info, you will never get sludge if the water is clean and has a inhibitor in it and topped up every couple of years, Gary.

yoshytoshy

Powerflushing does nothing for limescale.

Is your boiler cutting out on temperature ,or does it stay on all the time ?

adam.e

You would definetly need to have your system flushed then move your pump closer to your boiler or add a second pump for extra power,it will definetly work.i did the same in my house and im a plumber

yoshytoshy

Why is everyone telling robdunne to get his system flushed?

It looks like there is extra radiators gone in upstairs and the old boiler may still be in(not big enough).
The new radiators may not be balanced properly aswell.
Pump may be airlocked ,if it's up too high.


I have a fernox powerflusher myself ,but it's not the answer to everyones problems. A proper diagnosis of the system would be a lot less expensive and quicker.

Btw ,I'm a plumber myself and board gais have been giving our number to people for years (emergencies and jobs that no one will touch).

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Why is everyone telling robdunne to get his system flushed?.

It just a friendly suggestion , it's what i would do as a given if it were my place.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

It looks like there is extra radiators gone in upstairs and the old boiler may still be in(not big enough).
The new radiators may not be balanced properly as well.
Pump may be airlocked ,if it's up too high..

what you say is absolutely correct, but it's hard to put meat on the bones of it without going hands on, it could be anything.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I have a fernox powerflusher myself ,but it's not the answer to everyones problems. A proper diagnosis of the system would be a lot less expensive and quicker..

In your experience what condition would you expect the system water to be in, also just to say "get it looked at" wouldn't make for a long conversation.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Btw ,I'm a plumber myself and board gais have been giving our number to people for years (emergencies and jobs that no one will touch) .

Your lucky Board Gais hate me:eek:, Gary.

yoshytoshy

gary71 wrote: »

In your experience what condition would you expect the system water to be in, also just to say "get it looked at" wouldn't make for a long conversation.

I have a water test kit that came with the powerflush ,but to be honest ,if the water is black the system needs to be cleaned. (Go through about 8litres of X400 a week)

It's amazing though , the amount of systems that need a balance to get working. That includes new luxury apartments ,that on-site couldn't get working:rolleyes:

I use the fernox kit alot, it makes you look good, a cross between CSI and a gas fitter, but as you said a water sample will give you the heads up anyway, that kit is good for identifying any excessive chloride in the system.

The second job i did in Ireland was a high end new build site, 3 floors and no heat to a few rads in all the houses, that was due to lack of balancing, so they paid top money and nobody set the heating system up properly, sounds boring but it was a shock to me:eek:, i find heating system tend not to be balanced but for fear of me falling off my soap box I'll shut up, i won't tell you about my first job which included death treats and a big bucket, Gary.

sparkyjo

if this has never worked would you not get a plumber to check it out as heating systems can be a pain in the ass to fix i have a had a balancing problem in my house for three years and only fixed it this year but depending on your system and experience you may as well be peeing against the wind, you'll always have the diy people giving you advise but lookin at you post and all the sugestions you are getting here not one person has said you haven't given enough info to dianose the problem thats why i'm advising you just to get a plumber to dianose the problem should not cost that much and in the long run probably save you money.

pipers

I would recommend the following:

Replace circulating pump to one with a greater head. 6 meter or greater.

Get the system balanced by a real plumber.

If it’s an open system, convert to sealed.

I’m not a big fan of flushing unless absolutely necessary. Too much can go wrong.

Agreed, a good plumber on site is the starting point, just to clarify on the requirement of a flush, a sample of heating system water would have to be taken by the plumber.

If there are any solids or discoloration in the sample then a power flush(if it's practical to do it) or flushing of some description would be required, it's the sample that would decide, if signs of sludge are found it's impossible to determine what impact it's having on the performance of the system.

Fitting pumps or balancing would do a job, but if sludge is in the system it can move around effecting any benefits from any work done on it, i would be very surprised if on a 20 year old systems sludge is not a factor, but i have been wrong before, i did get married:(, Gary.

yoshytoshy

gary71 wrote: »

I use the fernox kit alot, it makes you look good, a cross between CSI and a gas fitter, but as you said a water sample will give you the heads up anyway, that kit is good for identifying any excessive chloride in the system.

Theres certain exchangers in boilers at the moment and it's essential to powerflush for them.
I think the viessman exchangers are the same as the baxi duo-tec ones.
I've never installed viessman ,but I don't like them exchangers tbh.

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

A proper diagnosis of the system would be a lot less expensive and quicker.

sparkyjo wrote: »

you'll always have the diy people giving you advise but lookin at you post and all the sugestions you are getting here not one person has said you haven't given enough info to dianose the problem thats why i'm advising you just to get a plumber to dianose the problem should not cost that much and in the long run probably save you money.

Yes ,I can type aswell as read ,not all tradesmen are stupid.

browner85

sounds like it could be a simple balancing problem to me to be honest

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browner85 wrote: »

sounds like it could be a simple balancing problem to me to be honest

Could be just a case of balancing. Flushing is best first approach to take when trying to improve an old system. Balancing a system full with sludge will be different that one without. Best start with clean system.

Micky Dolenz

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Powerflushing does nothing for limescale.

If my heating system has lime scale in it, a power flush won't remove it?

pipers wrote: »

I would recommend the following:

Replace circulating pump to one with a greater head. 6 meter or greater.

Get the system balanced by a real plumber.

If it’s an open system, convert to sealed.

I’m not a big fan of flushing unless absolutely necessary. Too much can go wrong.

Why not a fan of power flushing, what kind of things go wrong?

Isn't changing a vented system to a sealed one alot more risky?

yoshytoshy

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If my heating system has lime scale in it, a power flush won't remove it?

Limescale takes a lot longer to break down ,you have to introduce descaler into the system and leave it to work. To be honest I've never worked on limescale systems ,as I work in dublin and my relations use rain water to fill their systems.

The powerflush lifts sediment from the bottom of heating systems and allows the chemicals to break down the debris.
Any debris that is circulated and not broken down ,gathers in the powerflush machine and is pumped to drain.

Powerflushing is a great way to clean a heating system ,but it can take a nearly a day to clean a dirty system.
There is strong chemicals to use with the unit aswell ,only a professional would know what chemical to use tbh.

Happy new year to all in the forum here ,I won't be on the forum anymore ,back to work soon:(

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Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If my heating system has lime scale in it, a power flush won't remove it?



Why not a fan of power flushing, what kind of things go wrong?

Isn't changing a vented system to a sealed one alot more risky?

Limescale is never much of an issue with heating. Only an issue with plumbing.

Only know problems I've come across with power flushing happened in real old GB systems, pipe work in these systems might not withstand the high pressure, they tend to be rusty and broken down, less thick of a pipe wall. Either way its not a real problem as, any leaks that might be created are leaks that will happen eventually. Fixing any leaks created by power flush is leaving system in a much better way.

Their is other ways around power flushing, chemical can be introduced into working system, it breaks down sludge during normal heating use, then system is drained removing most of sludge build up.

Sealing a system is perfectly safe, all depends on the heat source, you can seal a back boiler system thats combined with oil boiler, just have to separate each system, leaving oil sealed and back boiler vented.

Micky Dolenz

I find this subject very interesting and am delighted to see a wealth of information here.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Happy new year to all in the forum here ,I won't be on the forum anymore ,back to work soon:(

Great advice and a Happy Year to you too ,

items wrote: »

Limescale is never much of an issue with heating. Only an issue with plumbing.

Only know problems I've come across with power flushing happened in real old GB systems, pipe work in these systems might not withstand the high pressure, they tend to be rusty and broken down, less thick of a pipe wall. Either way its not a real problem as, any leaks that might be created are leaks that will happen eventually. Fixing any leaks created by power flush is leaving system in a much better way.

Their is other ways around power flushing, chemical can be introduced into working system, it breaks down sludge during normal heating use, then system is drained removing most of sludge build up.

Sealing a system is perfectly safe, all depends on the heat source, you can seal a back boiler system thats combined with oil boiler, just have to separate each system, leaving oil sealed and back boiler vented.

Great, easy to understand advice. .

When I spoke of risk, I meant in a leak kind of way. A vented system may have been leaking for years, when it is sealed the leaks rear their ugly heads.

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Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I find this subject very interesting and am delighted to see a wealth of information here.



Great advice and a Happy Year to you too ,



Great, easy to understand advice. .

When I spoke of risk, I meant in a leak kind of way. A vented system may have been leaking for years, when it is sealed the leaks rear their ugly heads.

No probs.

Just on leaks, a leaky system brings further problems so not sealing a vented for reason of leaks is going about things in wrong kind of way. If worried about leaks, or more of them, best go after the leaks if you get me.

robdunne

Hi all

thanks again for all the feed back. Just to clarify a few items:

1. The boiler is a firebird bought new 2 years ago and was serviced and commissioned in may 09.

2. Circulation pump does not appear to be air-locked as the upstairs (convector) rads heat fine.

3. The idea of fitting a second pump was suggested by the guy who serviced the boiler.

4. Only 4 rooms have out dated-rads. They are downstairs where NONE of the rads are heating sufficiently.

5. The system has an expansion tank as originally I had planed to place a solid fuel stove with a back boiler on the system but was advised against this by the plumber I was using at the time, reason: the solid and oil systems would fight against each other causing air-locks.

6. I have tried to balance the rads as follows.

• Turn all rad vavles (the ones at left end of radiator) off except for the sitting room.
• Then turn valve one quarter on all other rads one by one with a 1 day intervalbetween each

Most posts have favoured power flushing so should I approach a plumber to start at this step? Is this an expensive process?

Rob

items

Not sure how well you've balanced, check up on older posts, one called luke warm rad, plenty of info there.

Power flush can be expensive, all depends on system you have. Since you've got a header tank, call into heatmerchant's or any plumber suppliers and pick up some fernox system cleaner. Pour cleaner into header tank then let some water out of system so chemical cleaner can be introduced. Run heating for a few days, drain it, fill it back up along with adding some fernox inhibitor. You can do all this yourself, all instructions you need come with fernox chemicals. See how system runs from then on, if it's still poor, then look at power flushing.

Back boiler and oil can work together with no problems, majority of these systems have back boiler only heating cylinder coil (hot water) least that way your getting something extra from the fire. Cylinder would have another coil for oil heating. Another way is to take just bathroom rads, ensuite etc along with cylinder coil off back boiler. If piped right, its two separate systems.

If its to late, never any back boiler going in, best seal up heating system, take away header tank, fill heating via mains filling loop, have expansion vessel fitted. Sealed systems can hold more pressure, pressure in system is good, water heats better and circulates better.

skunagirl

Hey can any one help !!!
I'm fed up with bull****ters!!
I had oil fired boiler replaced last year cost loads. didn't notice til now when its really cold bloody thing isnt working need decent plumber. only some heaters comin on. ?? air lock but have tried to clear that. also emmersion heater is only heating top of tank is that connected or not?please help as all the plumber guys guys just know that they can tell me any old crap and i'll pay up!!

browner85

robdunne wrote: »

Hi all

thanks again for all the feed back. Just to clarify a few items:

1. The boiler is a firebird bought new 2 years ago and was serviced and commissioned in may 09.

2. Circulation pump does not appear to be air-locked as the upstairs (convector) rads heat fine.

3. The idea of fitting a second pump was suggested by the guy who serviced the boiler.

4. Only 4 rooms have out dated-rads. They are downstairs where NONE of the rads are heating sufficiently.

5. The system has an expansion tank as originally I had planed to place a solid fuel stove with a back boiler on the system but was advised against this by the plumber I was using at the time, reason: the solid and oil systems would fight against each other causing air-locks.

6. I have tried to balance the rads as follows.

• Turn all rad vavles (the ones at left end of radiator) off except for the sitting room.
• Then turn valve one quarter on all other rads one by one with a 1 day intervalbetween each

Most posts have favoured power flushing so should I approach a plumber to start at this step? Is this an expensive process?

Rob

Did you turn off balancing valve on your cylinder????

ie where heating runs through coil in cylinder??

robdunne

Did not touch any valves on the cylinder, to be honest, wouldn't know what or where that valve is.

Rob

browner85

stick on the heat and on one side of the cylinder there are two pipes going into the side of it.... i say stick on the heat as they will get hot when the heat is on... there should be a red handled valve on one of these pipes.. turn it off.. clockwise..... then see how you go from there this should force heat downstairs.... if it does work only open about 3 turns..... how old is the original system?

robdunne

All the upstairs pipe work is 2.5 years old including the piping from new boiler to circ pump (which as stated earlier is upstairs). The connecting pipes to the downstairs rads is also new.

Where the upstairs to downstairs connect is linking to the old pipe work under the concrete floor that is 25-30 years old. From that old pipe work, new pipe work connects 3 new rads in the extension downstairs.

Two rads in the original part of the house were replaced with new rads leaving 4 old rads still in original place.