Richard Bruton's rebuttal

DarkRaven

I was looking over the Oireachtas report after the Budget was announced earlier this month (at which point I did not have an account here) and it seems to me that Richard Bruton's rebuttal was rather week and wishy washy. I seriously thought that the Finance Spokesperson for the second largest party in the Dáil would do better than that.

At the moment, I'm being drawn more and more to Fianna Fáil's side of the fence...

Any thoughts on this?

FunnyStuff

if thats what draws ya to FF then what hope is there for the country

me_right_one

FF's side of the fence is the only way. It's painful, but nescessary. Anyone who disagrees is only deluding themselves. Chow-chess-ku (dunno how to spell it) got Romania out of a recession, and 4 billion dollars debt, which was massive money for an eastern bloc country, AND it was 1989, all in one year. It was so painful for the country that it caused a revolution. Fecked up Romania permanently. They should have been the new Poland or East Germany. Even now, 20 years on, people still dont rate Romania with either of those countries.

If FG, or anyone else, thinks they could fix things with less pain, they're wrong. I'm not a FF man, I detest them, but this time the whole country has been caught with our trousers down, and we just need to row in behind the FFcukers this time to get back on the straight and narrow. I think they have the budget balanced just right under the circumstances.

Richard Brutons rebuttal was weak because in reality, he can't fault the budget, and he knows it. Its like choosing between eating dog poo or human poo when you're a minute away from starving to death. And FF chose the human.

FunnyStuff

Ok so let me see... FF **** up the country, then try to fix it.............. should they now be forgiven for ****in it up in the first place???

I hate this crap, they ran the place like their own personal circus for years. This **** storm is their own making, and them making some "tough decisions" doesnt quite fix it for me. If they made these decisions earlier then maybe the country wouldnt be in the state it is now.

DarkRaven

FunnyStuff wrote: »

Ok so let me see... FF **** up the country, then try to fix it.............. should they now be forgiven for ****in it up in the first place???

I hate this crap, they ran the place like their own personal circus for years. This **** storm is their own making, and them making some "tough decisions" doesnt quite fix it for me. If they made these decisions earlier then maybe the country wouldnt be in the state it is now.

You see it's closed minded individuals like you that are going to ruin the country. Your fault is that you keep looking back at what is done and dead and aren't pragmatic enough to look at the present.

Fianna Fáil destroyed the country's economy, I can accept that. But Fianna Fáil are in power now still. There will not be an election for some time still, they have quite some time yet in power.

Individuals like you have to accept that the country is in a difficult period and tough decisions have to be made to fix it. If you continue to resist their every move it will get worse and worse. Then Fine Gael and Labour will go into a coalition government and will have to take even tougher decisions to fix the mess.

/thread

Nate--IRL--

What tough decisions? FF have done **** all to fix the situation.

Nate

Edit:- A Small example

DarkRaven

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

What tough decisions? FF have done **** all to fix the situation.

Nate

Come on man, give us a bit more than this. Tell us what exactly Fianna Fáil did or didn't do to fix the economic condition.

NAMA: Not only was NAMA approved by the EU, it was also approved by two former leaders of Fine Gael - Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes. That I think is testiment to how good an idea it is. As you can see, businesses need credit which the banks cannot provide given the amount of toxic debt. NAMA is a great way to get the banks lending again.

Getting the Budget Deficit Under Control: Tax increases were impossible in this budget as they would stagnate the economy even further. The tough decision that had to be made was cutting public service pay. I'm not a particular fan of this decision as my father is a public servant, but there.

Stopping People from Shopping in Northern Ireland: VAT was reduced to it's former level of 21%. Excised duties in alcohol were lowered.

I could go on all day...

Nesie

me_right_one wrote: »

FF's side of the fence is the only way. It's painful, but nescessary. Anyone who disagrees is only deluding themselves.

Are you nuts? FF's way is the only way? I don't think so. Hospital consultants agreed a 15% pay increase a while back. This after the recession had started. Who agreed this? The FF led govermnent. Brendan Drumm is paid over half a million a year. who agreed this? The FF led government. The FF led government got us into this mess with poor planning and decision making the entire time they were in government. Got a problem? Lets throw money at it.

When the building sector looked like it was slowing down a bit, they played with stamp duty reliefs to keep it going. They pushed the economy up and up and up so their builder-developer buddies could make their millions. The higher the economy went the harder it was going to fall.

FF cannot plan. They have shown this and ppl seem to be blind to it.

Nate--IRL--

DarkRaven wrote: »

Come on man, give us a bit more than this. Tell us what exactly Fianna Fáil did or didn't do to fix the economic condition.

NAMA: Not only was NAMA approved by the EU, it was also approved by two former leaders of Fine Gael - Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes. That I think is testiment to how good an idea it is. As you can see, businesses need credit which the banks cannot provide given the amount of toxic debt. NAMA is a great way to get the banks lending again.

Getting the Budget Deficit Under Control: Tax increases were impossible in this budget as they would stagnate the economy even further. The tough decision that had to be made was cutting public service pay. I'm not a particular fan of this decision as my father is a public servant, but there.

Stopping People from Shopping in Northern Ireland: VAT was reduced to it's former level of 21%. Excised duties in alcohol were lowered.

I could go on all day...

I don't care if all of FG support NAMA, is still a bad bad Idea. As for getting the Banks lending again, don't expect that in a hurry.

Eugene Sheehy AIB chief executive wrote:

If people think the day after NAMA the country is going to be awash with money, that's not going to happen. The banks’ balance sheets will be stronger. That will help the banks fund their long term funding cheaper and I think there will be a trickle down effect.

And Nama does not concern itself with non-performing Mortgages that currently exist and will grow as we continue through into this brave new decade. It will take either a NAMA 2 or nationalisation to deal with this time-bomb. This has been put on the long finger by FF in the hope the economy will magically fix itself.

Getting the budget deficit under control, really? So a deficit of 22bn is now a good thing? And still the ****s in the upper civil service manage to weasel out of any cuts (Linked again in case you missed it). It didn't go far enough and didn't address any structural problems or structural efficiencies in any of the departments. But then again next year will require the budget from hell, it's just the hard decisions have been delayed while FF figure out how trigger a GE whilst saving face.

The Vat U-turn from Last year is no surprise, stupid decision to raise it in the first place. Wasn't it the very same people telling everybody to shop around previously? Then again it very much a case of Do as I say, not as I do

Nate

me_right_one

@ Nessie and Funnystuff: I know. Everybody knows. FF screwed us, and now we're up the creek. We all agree on that.

But what are we supposed to do? We're stuck with them for the next while at least. They will prob get hammered in the next general anyway. In the meantime, we have to put our shoulders to the wheel, get out of this rut, and sort out whose fault it was afterwards. Complaining and whinging now is not helping.

Options:

A) Take our arse raping. Kill FF when we eventually get loose.
Resist our arse raping, thus prolonging the agony and injuring ourselves further. Then kill FF when we eventually get loose.
C) Go mad, assasinate Cowen, have a revolution and lose 100+ lives, completely destabilise what remains of our fragile economy, and permanently put Ireland in the nut-nation category along with North Korea and Rwanda.

Its sh1t, but we've had worse things happen to the country before, and we got through it!

FunnyStuff

me_right_one wrote: »

@ Nessie and Funnystuff: I know. Everybody knows. FF screwed us, and now we're up the creek. We all agree on that.

But what are we supposed to do? We're stuck with them for the next while at least. They will prob get hammered in the next general anyway. In the meantime, we have to put our shoulders to the wheel, get out of this rut, and sort out whose fault it was afterwards. Complaining and whinging now is not helping.

Options:

A) Take our arse raping. Kill FF when we eventually get loose.
Resist our arse raping, thus prolonging the agony and injuring ourselves further. Then kill FF when we eventually get loose.
C) Go mad, assasinate Cowen, have a revolution and lose 100+ lives, completely destabilise what remains of our fragile economy, and permanently put Ireland in the nut-nation category along with North Korea and Rwanda.

Its sh1t, but we've had worse things happen to the country before, and we got through it!

my god thats a some load of crap to spout in one breath.

Nesie

me_right_one wrote: »

@ Nessie and Funnystuff: I know. Everybody knows. FF screwed us, and now we're up the creek. We all agree on that.

But what are we supposed to do? We're stuck with them for the next while at least. They will prob get hammered in the next general anyway. In the meantime, we have to put our shoulders to the wheel, get out of this rut, and sort out whose fault it was afterwards. Complaining and whinging now is not helping.

Options:

A) Take our arse raping. Kill FF when we eventually get loose.
Resist our arse raping, thus prolonging the agony and injuring ourselves further. Then kill FF when we eventually get loose.
C) Go mad, assasinate Cowen, have a revolution and lose 100+ lives, completely destabilise what remains of our fragile economy, and permanently put Ireland in the nut-nation category along with North Korea and Rwanda.

Its sh1t, but we've had worse things happen to the country before, and we got through it!

personal question ..but how do you plan on voting in the next general election? will FF feature on your ballot paper at all?

me_right_one

Nesie wrote: »

personal question ..but how do you plan on voting in the next general election? will FF feature on your ballot paper at all?

No they will not. Definarely not. There isn't much choice there, but thats when to administer payback, not now. I will choose whoever I think is the best of the remaining bunch when the time comes. Whoever it will be, they would have a difficult job to fcuk things up any more than they already are.

@ Funnystuff, grow up and contribute, or just dont bother:mad:

DarkRaven

FunnyStuff wrote: »

my god thats a some load of crap to spout in one breath.

Talk about a useless post. Care to explain how exactly that was a ''load of crap.'' If you don't want to back up your statements, then don't bother posting.

I agree with me_right_one here. I mean, let's face it, Fianna Fáil has mismanaged our economy. The fact that they are taking the right measures to fix it does not remove from the fact. In the next general election, my vote will be going to Alan Shatter or Alex White. (Yeah, you guys now know roughly where I live) However, my opinion of Labour has fallen tremendously in the past few months. FG will probably get my vote.

Count Dooku

me_right_one wrote: »

C) Go mad, assasinate Cowen, have a revolution and lose 100+ lives, completely destabilise what remains of our fragile economy, and permanently put Ireland in the nut-nation category along with North Korea and Rwanda.

BTW, main problem with Rwanda and North Korea is that people in those countries never tried to overthrow ruling class.
“Stability” and absence of resistance is only chance to survive for incompetent politicians and greedy developers, bankers and public servants.
The only reason against revolution is absence of alternative to FF. Opposition is much worse and more incompetent

johnnyskeleton

DarkRaven wrote: »

NAMA: Not only was NAMA approved by the EU, it was also approved by two former leaders of Fine Gael - Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes. That I think is testiment to how good an idea it is. As you can see, businesses need credit which the banks cannot provide given the amount of toxic debt. NAMA is a great way to get the banks lending again.

I'd be cautious of using Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes' approval as evidence that something is a good idea. If anything, their approval is evidence of how bad an idea it is.

As for NAMA getting the banks lending again, apparently the banks still approve 4 out of 5 loan applications at the moment. This seems to me like prudent lending and this is before NAMA. I also note that some of the banks have made press statements to the effect that NAMA will not increase credit availability.

DarkRaven

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'd be cautious of using Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes' approval as evidence that something is a good idea. If anything, their approval is evidence of how bad an idea it is.

Explain. I was of the opinion that Garret Fitz was one of the best leaders Fine Gael had since WT. Cosgrave? Feel free to prove me wrong.

As for NAMA getting the banks lending again, apparently the banks still approve 4 out of 5 loan applications at the moment. This seems to me like prudent lending and this is before NAMA. I also note that some of the banks have made press statements to the effect that NAMA will not increase credit availability.

I've heard of that all right, but honestly, I'm inclined to disregard it. If the banks have a ton of toxic debt on their balance sheets, then how are they supposed to be able to keep lending. They may be lending now, but with that toxic debt there, there is always a risk of the financial system collapsing.

Nate--IRL--

DarkRaven wrote: »

Explain. I was of the opinion that Garret Fitz was one of the best leaders Fine Gael had since WT. Cosgrave? Feel free to prove me wrong.

Who Cares about FG? Nama is still a monumentally bad idea. It passes private debt to public debt, and still mamnged not to adress the whole situation. As I said previously expect the Govt to proceed with Nama 2 or Nationalisation to deal with all the stuff Nama has neglected.

Nate

old boy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'd be cautious of using Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes' approval as evidence that something is a good idea. If anything, their approval is evidence of how bad an idea it is.

As for NAMA getting the banks lending again, apparently the banks still approve 4 out of 5 loan applications at the moment. This seems to me like prudent lending and this is before NAMA. I also note that some of the banks have made press statements to the effect that NAMA will not increase credit availability.

1st alan dukes was / is on the board of anglo
2nd garret the good son runs sherry fitzgerald the largest auctioneering firm in the land.
the cynic in me is wondering how reliable them guys points of view are.

me_right_one

Count Dooku wrote: »

BTW, main problem with Rwanda and North Korea is that people in those countries never tried to overthrow ruling class.
“Stability” and absence of resistance is only chance to survive for incompetent politicians and greedy developers, bankers and public servants.
The only reason against revolution is absence of alternative to FF. Opposition is much worse and more incompetent

Well, as bad as things are, I'd rather stay like this until things eventually improve, than have martial law and food rationing on top of my mortgage problems:rolleyes:

Diarmuid

old boy wrote: »

1st alan dukes was / is on the board of anglo
2nd garret the good son runs sherry fitzgerald the largest auctioneering firm in the land.
the cynic in me is wondering how reliable them guys points of view are.

Not to mention that Garret was Taoiseach of one of the disastrous governments we have had. (and I will be an FG voter in the next election)

DarkRaven

Diarmuid wrote: »

Not to mention that Garret was Taoiseach of one of the disastrous governments we have had. (and I will be an FG voter in the next election)

Remember that most of that came from Labour, not FG. Every time Garret tried to cut back, his nice pals in Labour threatened to pull out of government with him.

me_right_one

DarkRaven wrote: »

Remember that most of that came from Labour, not FG. Every time Garret tried to cut back, his nice pals in Labour threatened to pull out of government with him.

I wonder would a present day FG / Lab mutant be the same?

Amhran Nua

DarkRaven wrote: »

Fianna Fáil destroyed the country's economy, I can accept that. But Fianna Fáil are in power now still. There will not be an election for some time still, they have quite some time yet in power.

Yes, I believe that blasphemy law came into effect yesterday. Tell me, is that likely to increase or decrease the amount of FDI Ireland receives?

DarkRaven wrote: »

NAMA: Not only was NAMA approved by the EU, it was also approved by two former leaders of Fine Gael - Garret Fitzgerald and Alan Dukes. That I think is testiment to how good an idea it is.

Nobel prize winning economist Stiglitz has gone on record as saying it is a criminally bad idea. Lets examine that a bit further - a Nobel prize winner, the equivalent of an Olympic gold medallist in his field, has said that NAMA is so bad that it and anybody proposing it should be locked away for the public good, which is what criminal means.

I'll take his opinion before most others, if its all the same.

johnnyskeleton

DarkRaven wrote: »

Explain. I was of the opinion that Garret Fitz was one of the best leaders Fine Gael had since WT. Cosgrave? Feel free to prove me wrong.

He's completely lost his marbles:

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27042

DarkRaven wrote: »

I've heard of that all right, but honestly, I'm inclined to disregard it. If the banks have a ton of toxic debt on their balance sheets, then how are they supposed to be able to keep lending. They may be lending now, but with that toxic debt there, there is always a risk of the financial system collapsing.

The idea behind NAMA is that they remove the toxic loans and replace them with good loans to businesses and professional first time buyers. The reality (as discussed in this thread) will IMO be that the banks will take the bailout money and sit on it i.e. reducing their overall loan book rather than writing new loans on it. I also think that a rejection rate of 1 in 5 is not particularly prudent lending either, so the only way in which the banks will lend more post NAMA is if they approve every single loan application regardless of whether it can be repaid or not. Then we have NAMA II in a few years time to pay for those toxic loans.

You have hit upon the central issue though, NAMA is not designed to increase credit - it is designed to prevent insolvent banks from collapsing the financial system as it is. However, no thought was ever given to allowing the current players in the financial system to fail and allowing new players to take their place. The latter would not only be cheaper on the government spending side, but it would also give us a much more robust banking system. The moral hazard of bailling out the banks is that they are going to make the exact same mistakes again, particularly if the government insists on them increasing their lending.

amymac2010

im thinking of moving over to holland,im recieving job seekers allowence can i still claim that in holland until i get a job????????

DarkRaven

me_right_one wrote: »

I wonder would a present day FG / Lab mutant be the same?

That's something I'm very much afraid of now. Actually my opinion of Labour has plummeted somewhat. I'll keep the reason why to myself for now (liable).

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Yes, I believe that blasphemy law came into effect yesterday. Tell me, is that likely to increase or decrease the amount of FDI Ireland receives?

Eh, that was somewhat a bad idea. On one hand the Supreme Court was pushing them to bring this in for years, but on the other hand it's anti free speech. I hope to God that we can have a referendum soon to facilitate the abolition of this law.

But what does this have to do with the economy whatsoever?

Nobel prize winning economist Stiglitz has gone on record as saying it is a criminally bad idea. Lets examine that a bit further - a Nobel prize winner, the equivalent of an Olympic gold medallist in his field, has said that NAMA is so bad that it and anybody proposing it should be locked away for the public good, which is what criminal means.

I'll take his opinion before most others, if its all the same.

Yes, and Obama got the nobel peace prize when he has two international wars going on... You see what I mean? Am I supposed to take this fellows word for it over the top economists in the EU who backed NAMA?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

He's completely lost his marbles:

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27042

Thanks for explaining that.

The idea behind NAMA is that they remove the toxic loans and replace them with good loans to businesses and professional first time buyers. The reality (as discussed in this thread) will IMO be that the banks will take the bailout money and sit on it i.e. reducing their overall loan book rather than writing new loans on it. I also think that a rejection rate of 1 in 5 is not particularly prudent lending either, so the only way in which the banks will lend more post NAMA is if they approve every single loan application regardless of whether it can be repaid or not. Then we have NAMA II in a few years time to pay for those toxic loans.

You have hit upon the central issue though, NAMA is not designed to increase credit - it is designed to prevent insolvent banks from collapsing the financial system as it is. However, no thought was ever given to allowing the current players in the financial system to fail and allowing new players to take their place. The latter would not only be cheaper on the government spending side, but it would also give us a much more robust banking system. The moral hazard of bailling out the banks is that they are going to make the exact same mistakes again, particularly if the government insists on them increasing their lending.

The problem that we had before was that their was plenty of good regulatory laws in place, they weren't actually enforced. We had a situation where the financial regulator was in bed with the guys he was supposed to be regulating.

The thing that has been ignored here is that NAMA is actually profitable! If this goes right, we will not actually lose a penny on it. We may actually make some. Also it's gotten full backing from the top economists in the EU.

And if we are to let them fall, we will still have to bail them out! Why? Because of the amount of money that the banks have saved at the moment. Banks are only required to keep ten per cent of the amount deposited in them inside the banks at any one time. I honestly doubt that they can give everyone their money back given the toxic debts that they have. I can't verify that though. If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

I'm also highly sceptical about the one in five loans approval rate as it only measures the rate of formal applications. My father was denied loans several before he could even fill out the form. I'd imagine that the actual figure is much higher.

Nate--IRL--

DarkRaven wrote: »

NAMA PR Stuff

Wow! NAMA making a profit......... Jesus H Christ.

Nate

DarkRaven

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Wow! NAMA making a profit......... Jesus H Christ.

Nate

Come on dude, you can do better than that. It's no fun debating with you if you won't provide any proper counter argument.

Nate--IRL--

DarkRaven wrote: »

Come on dude, you can do better than that. It's no fun debating with you if you won't provide any proper counter argument.

You are correct, I can do better than that. I just don't see the point.

Nate

Count Dooku

DarkRaven wrote: »

Am I supposed to take this fellows word for it over the top economists in the EU who backed NAMA?

Names, please

EU didn’t object much to NAMA mostly because a lot pension funds in Europe would lose money in Irish bank bonds and a lot of influential people in management of those funds could lose their jobs
As soon as taxpayers will pay bonds, those fat cats are safe

DarkRaven wrote: »

The thing that has been ignored here is that NAMA is actually profitable! If this goes right, we will not actually lose a penny on it.

NAMA can be profitable only if economy and population will start to grow as it was 5 years ago
Otherwise, those assets never will find customers

DarkRaven wrote: »

And if we are to let them fall, we will still have to bail them out! Why? Because of the amount of money that the banks have saved at the moment. Banks are only required to keep ten per cent of the amount deposited in them inside the banks at any one time. I honestly doubt that they can give everyone their money back given the toxic debts that they have. I can't verify that though. If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.

Year ago banks had enough good assets to cover current accounts and deposits below 100K
Now those deposits sold to pay money back to bondholders, banks are insolvent and government will have to nationalize them soon