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Islam, inter-faith marriage & raising kids
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You could say that living in a multi-cultural multi-religious society means that compromises are made. I mean, I presume you don't strictly obey all halal food laws in Ireland either.
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That's not an option I would feel like a hypocrite. as for halal food I'm living in London at the mo but when I visit Ireland I only eat halal meat or go veggie.0 -
That's not an option I would feel like a hypocrite. as for halal food I'm living in London at the mo but when I visit Ireland I only eat halal meat or go veggie.
So some of God's Laws you willing to disobey, and some you aren't.
Halal covers the use of cutlery as well, I'm sure you know, so I presume you don't eat out.
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So some of God's Laws you willing to disobey, and some you aren't.
Halal covers the use of cutlery as well, I'm sure you know, so I presume you don't eat out.
P.
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I'm getting tired of your inanities. I don't mind having a sensible discussion with someone who has different beliefs than mine where there is a genuine desire to exchange information in a cordial manner.....but you are clearly just out for an argument.0 -
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I'm getting tired of your inanities. I don't mind having a sensible discussion with someone who has different beliefs than mine where there is a genuine desire to exchange information in a cordial manner.....but you are clearly just out for an argument.
I'm not sure why my arguments have turned into inanities. As you know perfectly well, cutlery that has been used with pork cannot be used by Muslims, even after washing. This is why when I'm in Malaysia, for example, restaurants can be certified as halal only if no pork products are prepared whatsoever, and why in hawker centres, halal and non-halal cutlery is kept seperate.
Your inability to answer this and being reduced to accusing me of inanities is duly noted, hopefully by the OP as well. At least they have a good excuse to break God's laws - true love - while your reason is just to eat a meal.
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Sorry for jumping into this thread so late in the day. I was baptised R.C. and for the last 21 years have been married to a Jewish lady.
We had it sorted out before hand what would happen if children came along. If we had girls they would be brought up in the Jewish tradition as Judaism travels through the female line. If we had boys as an athiest I would have been happy having them baptised or brought up Jewish.
As it happened I have five girls so that problem was solved quickly enough.
As regards family if you love your partner thats all that matters. More often than not they will come around. My Father-in-Law was fine about my wife marrying a goyim, My Mother-in-Law however took until my first girl was born and now she loves me(for my sins. If you have ever watched 'Everybody Loves Raymond' you'll know what my Mother-in-Law is like).
My family were the same my siblings and Father had no problem, but my Mother took a couple of years.
At the end of the day you have to ask yourself if you want to spend the rest of your life on Earth with the person you love, or can you walk away and suffer the attached heartbreak, and hope that further down the line you meet someone who is 100% compatible. Don't forget many people of the same faith end up divorcing, in a marriage religion is personal, being in love is what you do as a couple.
Hope that is of some help.0 -
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For the record, it is permissible (halal) to eat from cutlery and utensils which have been used to serve haram foods, if they have been washed and all traces removed.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link without giving the text but here's one example of a fatwa to that effect:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar&cid=11195035456400 -
It sounds fine except for the beginning, when you say you wouldn't bother them with any thoughts of religion when they are young. Are there any small children in your extended family? because they have a habit of asking questions, questions, questions - why is the sky blue? what are rainbows made of? who is God? where is (dead relative) now? why is snow cold? They demand answers - honest answers, accurate if possible but definitely from the heart.
I did say I wouldn't bother them with these thoughts, unless they where interested on their own, then I would of course, encourage it. As for the questions you describe, well they are very easily answered: the skys colour and the rainbow are a result of light, god is who a lot of people think made the universe, I dont know where dead relatives are (some people believe they are in heaven, some believe they are resting in the earth etc.), snow is cold if it was hot it would be water (the snow question is actually the hardest to answer, a full answer would require knowledge of thermodynamics and entropy, which a child would find it difficult to understand)The problem with the 'leave them their own devices' approach is that they will get their answers from somewhere. They have to. They are driven to find out things.
So believe me, the chances are high that long before any chidren you might have are 10 you will have been forced to share your beliefs with them, in all kinds of subjects.
Probably, but I wouldn't push my beliefs on them, many of the questions children ask have honest and accurate answers that would just go over the head of young children. The important thing for me to teach my children is that they shouldn't believe something simply because I do (or because someone else does), they themselves should be convinced. This is why the best response to such questions as "where do dead relatives go?" is "where do you think they go?"It's the parents' duty to explain the world to their kids, as they understand it.
Too many people dont make sure their kids understand that the explanation they recieved from their parenst is simply, how their parents understand things and not necesserily true.I'm a Muslim and I believe in One God who created the universe and everything in it, so that's what I tell my kids. With my older child I do tell him that there are other religions, other points of view, other scriptures - we have several bibles and a torah and other religious writings on the bookshelves and he does look at them sometimes. We have family members who are practising Christians so he is aware that he needs to respect other people's beliefs. But ultimately, I'm a Muslim and when I discuss Islam with him it's from the assumption that this is the truth. If you discuss religious beliefs with your children in the future, you will be presenting your point of view, your truth. It's hard to do anything else.
It may be hard, but I would be doing a disservice to my child not to let him/her be convinced of his/her own truths. I would tell them what I believe, but I would also tell them its only what I believe, that it doesn't necessarily make it true.0 -
It's not about ensuring that your children remain in your religion. It's about obeying God and carrying out your responsibilities as a parent.
This brings it back to the point I made in the first place. Does god want true believers? People who when unbiasadly (as possible, anyway) are presented with different view points and choose the right one because they are convinced of it. Or does he just want kids to be labeled, because ultimately its the numbers and not the actual faith that matters.0 -
What if your girlfriend does?
Also, since when is educating someone "bothering"?
When they dont need to be educated in it. If I started trying to "educate" my seven year old nephew in the intracies of the Irish legal system, I have no doubt I would be told to stop bothering him as he is only a kid and is hardly going to be that interested or capable of truely understanding it. Children of a young age cannot make a mature decision on religion. they cant make mature decisions on anything, its why they cant vote, have sex, smoke, drink and have to get parental permission to have medical precedures.0 -
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but you're not obeying God if you're married to an athiest, and that is part of your responsibility to your kids.
How can I tell my kids "these are God's laws in which I wholeheartedly believe" when I am actually not living in accordance with those laws myself, I am committing a major sin.
But then you wouldn't wholeheartily believe them then, so why would you tell your kids you do? This would not be acase of you not obeying god, its a case of you having a "belief" you dont actually believe in, which is why you get the people you described earlier:Zaynzma wrote:It's surprising to me how many people say they're Muslim and then when you press them they don't even know what Muslims actually believe in. So I sometimes like to clarify whether someone calling themselves Muslim actually believe in Islam or just have a background in a country with a broadly Islamic culture, or whatever. (actually the same applies to people calling themselves christian who've never opened a bible in their lives).
Many people are told what to believe all through their childhood (rather than convinced) and so you have people who big lists of things they strongly claim to "believe" in, but have little idea of the full consequences of their beliefs or use symantics (or interpretation) to get what they truely want out of the wording of their beliefs.0 -
Mark, your view is all well and good but you are coming at this from your athiest point of view. The OP however is a Muslim and has an obligation to being their children up as Muslims also. To bring their children up in the way you suggest is not really an option for a practising Muslim. Yes, it is possible the children may reject Islam when they get older but we have a duty to introduce them to it. BTW, this does not mean ram it down their throats, but we teach them the basics, who created the world and everything in it, the stories of the prophets Allah sent, etc etc.0
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Mark Hamill wrote: »When they dont need to be educated in it.
This is your opinion. A lot of people in this world, and possibly even your girlfriend think that their children need to be educated about God to lead truly fulfilling lives.Mark Hamill wrote: »Children of a young age cannot make a mature decision on religion. they cant make mature decisions on anything, its why they cant vote, have sex, smoke, drink and have to get parental permission to have medical precedures.
I agree, they can't. This is why people equip their children to make a mature decision when they are older.0 -
irishconvert wrote: »Mark, your view is all well and good but you are coming at this from your athiest point of view.
Its not an atheist point of view. An atheist point of view would be to teach them from the start that there is no such thing as god. My point of view is simply that its better for people to actually be convinced by what they believe in, rather than told what to believe and simply repeat it because they no nothing else.irishconvert wrote: »The OP however is a Muslim and has an obligation to being their children up as Muslims also. To bring their children up in the way you suggest is not really an option for a practising Muslim. Yes, it is possible the children may reject Islam when they get older but we have a duty to introduce them to it. BTW, this does not mean ram it down their throats, but we teach them the basics, who created the world and everything in it, the stories of the prophets Allah sent, etc etc.
Why though? You have repeated how a muslim must bring up their kids, but you have not explained why its better than my suggestion. Can you answer my underlying question? Which does god really want: Muslims who maturely choose to become muslim? or people calling themselves muslim regardless of wether they are mature/intelligent enough to understand?0 -
This is your opinion. A lot of people in this world, and possibly even your girlfriend think that their children need to be educated about God to lead truly fulfilling lives.
Most children under 10 cant even begin to comprehend god enough to have their lives in anyway fulfilled by god (most people over 20 are the same). He is like Santa Claus, but for adults, to them, gives you presents when you are good, punishes you when you bad.I agree, they can't. This is why people equip their children to make a mature decision when they are older.
But why isn't this applied to religion then? Why must a muslim bring up their child as a muslim? Or a christian as a christian? Why not equip your child to make a mature decision, instead of making that decision for it? is the reward for that decision not given based on wether that decision is made sincerely?0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Most children under 10 cant even begin to comprehend god enough to have their lives in anyway fulfilled by god (most people over 20 are the same). He is like Santa Claus, but for adults, to them, gives you presents when you are good, punishes you when you bad.
Absolute tripe.Mark Hamill wrote: »But why isn't this applied to religion then? Why must a muslim bring up their child as a muslim? Or a christian as a christian? Why not equip your child to make a mature decision, instead of making that decision for it? is the reward for that decision not given based on wether that decision is made sincerely?
I've explained to you exactly why parents do. To equip their children to find a moral framework for their lives, and to equip them to make a decision for themselves. If you don't know anything about religion you can't decide at all. No reasonable believer should want their child to reject God, and reject salvation.
Christians must bring up their children to be Christian, because 1) they love their children, 2) they want the best for them, 3) God commands them to. I'm sure it is similar for Muslims.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Most children under 10 cant even begin to comprehend god enough to have their lives in anyway fulfilled by god (most people over 20 are the same). He is like Santa Claus, but for adults, to them, gives you presents when you are good, punishes you when you bad.
But why isn't this applied to religion then? Why must a muslim bring up their child as a muslim? Or a christian as a christian? Why not equip your child to make a mature decision, instead of making that decision for it? is the reward for that decision not given based on wether that decision is made sincerely?
I disagree with your first point as that was not my personal experience as an under 10 and not my older child's experience either if his questions and conclusions are anything to go by.
Why must a Muslim bring their child up as a Muslim? Or a Christian as a christian? because they love their children and are mindful of their responsibilities as a parent. Anyone who loves their children is going to want the best for them, whatever your own definition of 'the best' may be and whether you believe in God or not. If you don't understand that I can't think of any other way to explain it.
Children will decide for themselves eventually anyway. As a Muslim I feel that Islam can stand up to scrutiny and I'm not afraid to raise critical thinkers insha'Allah. If they reject Islam (authu'billah) then as long as I have done my duty I can do nothing more except hope that they would accept Islam at some point in the future.0 -
Absolute tripe.
Absolute tripe.I've explained to you exactly why parents do. To equip their children to find a moral framework for their lives, and to equip them to make a decision for themselves.
Firstly you dont need religion to give someone a moral framework for their lives and secondly how can telling a child for the 18 years they are growing up in your care that what you believe is right equip them to make a decision for themselves? Religious parents dont tell their kids their own beliefs and say these are just their own believes, you kids need to make up their own decision, they tell their kids that their beliefs are right.
And this brings it back to what I've said all along: A child being brought up as a certain religion has no more made a mature decision to honestly believe that religion than a child brought up as a certain football team supporter, because before they where capable of deciding what is right and wrong and what should and should not convince them, a person in unquestionable authority told them what to believe. God sees this, does he care?If you don't know anything about religion you can't decide at all. No reasonable believer should want their child to reject God, and reject salvation.
Why would a just god punish someone if they dont know anything about religion if its not their fault?0 -
I disagree with your first point as that was not my personal experience as an under 10 and not my older child's experience either if his questions and conclusions are anything to go by.
Why must a Muslim bring their child up as a Muslim? Or a Christian as a christian? because they love their children and are mindful of their responsibilities as a parent. Anyone who loves their children is going to want the best for them, whatever your own definition of 'the best' may be and whether you believe in God or not. If you don't understand that I can't think of any other way to explain it.
Children will decide for themselves eventually anyway. As a Muslim I feel that Islam can stand up to scrutiny and I'm not afraid to raise critical thinkers insha'Allah. If they reject Islam (authu'billah) then as long as I have done my duty I can do nothing more except hope that they would accept Islam at some point in the future.
See my response to Jakkass0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Firstly you dont need religion to give someone a moral framework for their lives and secondly how can telling a child for the 18 years they are growing up in your care that what you believe is right equip them to make a decision for themselves?
People of faith believe that this is the best way to give your child the best life (and hereafter) possible. Therefore it's understandable as to why they would want to bring their child up in a certain faith.Mark Hamill wrote: »Religious parents dont tell their kids their own beliefs and say these are just their own believes, you kids need to make up their own decision, they tell their kids that their beliefs are right.
Generalisation.Mark Hamill wrote: »And this brings it back to what I've said all along: A child being brought up as a certain religion has no more made a mature decision to honestly believe that religion than a child brought up as a certain football team supporter, because before they where capable of deciding what is right and wrong and what should and should not convince them, a person in unquestionable authority told them what to believe. God sees this, does he care?
Again, to the Christian or the Muslim, the question of God's existence is far far more important than following a football team.
Do you know why parents teach their children morality? Precisely because they do not know right and wrong and need to find out what is. No human being on the face of this earth hasn't taught their children about ethics or morality.Mark Hamill wrote: »Why would a just god punish someone if they dont know anything about religion if its not their fault?
My answer is probably too Christian focused for the Islam forum.0 -
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Well what is the harm of bringing a child up in a particular religion and when they are old enough they can decide to reject or accept it? I was brought up as a Christian but rejected it when I was about 16. However I am glad I was brought up as a Christian as opposed to no religion at all. It done me no harm at allMark Hamill wrote: »Its not an atheist point of view. An atheist point of view would be to teach them from the start that there is no such thing as god. My point of view is simply that its better for people to actually be convinced by what they believe in, rather than told what to believe and simply repeat it because they no nothing else.Mark Hamill wrote: »Why though? You have repeated how a muslim must bring up their kids, but you have not explained why its better than my suggestion. Can you answer my underlying question? Which does god really want: Muslims who maturely choose to become muslim? or people calling themselves muslim regardless of wether they are mature/intelligent enough to understand?
Mark, I think you are losing sight of the fact that you are in a Muslim forum. As Muslims we are commanded by Allah to bring our children up as Muslims, there is no debate about it. Leaving that aside, and the fact that Allah's law will always be superior to any manmade law or suggestion, I think it is better than your suggestion as I believe in the teaching of Islam so it only makes sense I would introduce the same beliefs to my child.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Why would a just god punish someone if they dont know anything about religion if its not their fault?
We believe Allah will only punish people who reject Islam, not people who know nothing about it.0 -
People of faith believe that this is the best way to give your child the best life (and hereafter) possible. Therefore it's understandable as to why they would want to bring their child up in a certain faith.
But by bringing up their children as a particular religion, are they not taking away the childs ability to make a mature free decision on the subject?Generalisation.
And? Is it generally wrong or generally right, do you think?Again, to the Christian or the Muslim, the question of God's existence is far far more important than following a football team.
And yet the same things is done with to the children of the religious by their parents as is done to the children of the soccor supporters by their parents, they are raised to unquestioningly support something.Do you know why parents teach their children morality? Precisely because they do not know right and wrong and need to find out what is. No human being on the face of this earth hasn't taught their children about ethics or morality.
So? I didn't say parents shouldn't teach their kids morality, just that religion is completely uneccessary for it.My answer is probably too Christian focused for the Islam forum.
Ok.0 -
irishconvert wrote: »Well what is the harm of bringing a child up in a particular religion and when they are old enough they can decide to reject or accept it? I was brought up as a Christian but rejected it when I was about 16. However I am glad I was brought up as a Christian as opposed to no religion at all. It done me no harm at all
Because by bringing up a child in a particular religion you are biasing them towards that religion (quite heavily too, depending on the religion). If their was no harm, then this thread wouldn't exist as there would be no problem in the OPs mind at his children being brought up in the other faith as they could be convinced by Islam when they get older.irishconvert wrote: »Mark, I think you are losing sight of the fact that you are in a Muslim forum. As Muslims we are commanded by Allah to bring our children up as Muslims, there is no debate about it.
If there is no debate, then why have a muslim forum?irishconvert wrote: »Leaving that aside, and the fact that Allah's law will always be superior to any manmade law or suggestion, I think it is better than your suggestion as I believe in the teaching of Islam so it only makes sense I would introduce the same beliefs to my child.
Why not wait until they are adults though? As a child anything you say is going to be taken as true by your child, and that goes the same for any teacher or any other authority figure, so their is going to be very little questioning of what you tell them, and probably less understanding.
You are assuming that by bringing up your child as a muslim, that this is only an introduction to the religion, that they can freely leave it, but why not bring them up as all religions then? If they end up as some other religion, then is that not what they are meant to end up as? If you believe that they will more likely end up as muslim if that is all they are told when they are brought up is that not a lie? Dont you think god would know that a person is only a muslim because they had no unbiased introduction to any other religion? Do you think he cares?0 -
irishconvert wrote: »We believe Allah will only punish people who reject Islam, not people who know nothing about it.
What about people who only know Islam? Can it honestly be said that people who only know of Islam would actually choose to be muslim if they knew of other religions? Does god reward people for being islamic if they are only islamic because they had no knowledge of other religion?
Think of it like this: You have a smoker who is trying to give up smoking but keeps failing, cant do it. One day this smoker is stranded on a desert island and is stuck there, with no cigarretes for 2 years, so by the time this smoker gets off the island, he is an ex smoker and is over his cravings. Is this ex-smoker applauded for giving up smoking in the same way that another smoker who had to give up using will power and determination (as opposed to uncontrollable external circumstances) would be? If the choice is accidental or externally incidental, is there true reward?0 -
What if your girlfriend does?
Also, since when is educating someone "bothering"?
There is a difference between education, and indoctrination. I believe the point that Mark is trying to make is that by telling a child what faith they belong to, prior to them coming on an age where they can even begin to understand it is indoctrination.
By bringing up a child as a Christian, or a Muslim, or any other faith - you have already decided for that child what they are, and have not afforded them the free will to think for themselves.
You can educate your child about certain principles of your faith - like, it is wrong to steal, and do onto others as you would have them do onto you. I think these are all principles which we can all live by - but by telling a child that they are going to go to hell if they do not accept certain values - that is not education. It is purely subjective opinion, and indoctrination.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »See my response to Jakkass
are you saying it's tripe that under 10s can comprehend God in a meaningful way? because I assure you that was my own experience. Just because you didn't have a meaningful understanding of God at that age (or maybe not even now) you refuse to accept that anyone else could have? That seems an intolerant and ignorant attitude to take.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »But then you wouldn't wholeheartily believe them then, so why would you tell your kids you do? This would not be acase of you not obeying god, its a case of you having a "belief" you dont actually believe in
Can I just get this clear? You are saying that if someone claims to believe in 'God's laws' but actually lives a life in opposition to those laws - eg a Muslim alcoholic or a Christian who 'lives in sin' - they don't really wholeheartedly believe? They are not "true believers"?
Because this seems to get right to the heart of the OP's dilemma.
It's like you're telling him: If you marry this woman you are not a proper Muslim, because if you "wholeheartedly" believed then you wouldn't be disobeying God.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Religious parents dont tell their kids their own beliefs and say these are just their own believes, you kids need to make up their own decision, they tell their kids that their beliefs are right.
Of course they do! That's what BELIEFS are! not something you think is a possibility, with an equal chance of being right as any other set of beliefs. They (we) BELIEVE that the purpose of life is to worship God and live in accordance to His laws, and that not to do so will have serious consequences that may last an eternity. How can I tell my children otherwise, when that is what I absolutely believe? I would be lying to them if I told them it doesn't matter at all, they can choose whatever religion they like, or none.
As I said before, they will make their own decision anyway. I can't compel them to accept my beliefs.0 -
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are you saying it's tripe that under 10s can comprehend God in a meaningful way? because I assure you that was my own experience.
I would say most people dont ever comprehend god in a meaningful way. Just look at the numbers, you have how many essentially mutually exclusive religions, each with their own comprehension of god. In reality only one can be right (maybe even one no-one has figured out yet) so odds are quite a few people dont actually understand god at all.Just because you didn't have a meaningful understanding of God at that age (or maybe not even now) you refuse to accept that anyone else could have? That seems an intolerant and ignorant attitude to take.
Its an awfully big assumption to think that what you understood of god at ten years of age was actually accurate to reality.
Its not based on wether I had a meaningful knowledge of god, its based on other people incapable of even answering simple questions about him and usually resorting to deflecting answers such as "god works in mysterious ways" or some such.0
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