Tiers - Do they matter to you?

A-Trak

Bleeding in from a number of other threads, tier listings are a huge concern and will always be a big point of contention.

My take is that at my level they matter not jot. What pluses yoU might gain from picking a top tier character are nullified through over exposure even if I pick a 'low' tier character.

My point being, I've fought literally 1000,s of Ryus online, as a Ryu you've fought comparatively few Hondas online.
I can be mediocre as Honda, have poor execution and throw out some randoms and still beat a Ryu unfamiliar with the match up, who is far my superior, has flawless execution and knows frame data.

As far as I'm concerned tiers level have little to no meaning at my level. Certain characters have bad match ups for sure, but knowing those are part of knowing your character.

Kirby

Not really.

I go with character I like best. I had decided on sim before the game even came out. Just so happens that he is solidly mid tier. I play yoshi in smash and hes the bottom of the bottom. It's just personal preference really.

Azza

Ropedrink wrote:

Tier lists should only be used as a reference, not a gospel - All those people out there who use a tier list as a defining point in their choice of SF4 character will likely struggle more than if they just went with their gut

Do you know that for a fact they will struggle if they pick a character purely because the tier lists say he is a high tier character?. Seems to me success is down to time and effort put into the game regardless of who you pick and why they pick em.

At casual levels of play it doesn't matter who you pick, if you have two player don't know the correct way of playing a match up then the match ratings don't matter.

But there is a hell of a difference between Vega and Sagat at high levels of play. If you have two players who want to get good at the game and they pick Vega and Sagat respectively and put an equal time of practice and play, learn there respective characters tributes, be able to perform combo's consistently, know the best way to punish an opponent and know the match ups in detail, I can tell you for sure the Sagat player is going to do alot better.

RopeDrink wrote:

Tier lists are a summation of character positives/negatives weighed up against all other characters

Tier lists are not a summation of character positives/negatives they are just a summation of how many matches out of ten they would win against every other character and then added together. They don't explain why a certain match up is bad.

I'd consider each characters postitves and neagatives seperate. For example Bison hates being crossed up but since Balrog and Vega can't do that its not a weakness in those match ups. Rose can't use her Soul Reflect when playing a non fireball character etc.

RopeDrink wrote:

They hold far more weight and importance to other people, likely those who play SF4 as a sort of career or want of competition rather than those who just play casually - I understand and respect that, however I do still feel sorry for people who 100% live by those lists, beit their choice to do so or because they feel they 'have' to to succeed in the game.

This last bit sounds really scubbish. Just because people play competively and want to win doesn't mean they are having any less fun. You hear this from the casual players alot. They assume playing seriously takes the fun from game the but fail to realise the satisfaction people get from doing well when they play competively. I suspect you don't feel sorry for people who are successful in competitive sports like soccer or rugby. Granted SF IV is a video game and isn't on the same level, but if people want to play it competively so be it.

I can't imagine anyone who goes by tier lists too much even at high level. They just roughly know the tier lists and thats it. Everyone is basically in agreement that Sagat is top tier and the rest is subject to debate. You here a fair bit of whining about him and whining about each players character respective weaknesses but thats about it.

At lower skill levels it is irratating when you beat someone and they whine about this being a bad match up when they are playing the match wrong however.

Anyone Bison is my main and will always be my main. Don't care where is on the tier list. Still I would like his weaknesses to be addressed in SSF IV. It sucks having 3-4 pretty much useless special moves.

Sabre0001

Azza wrote: »

Just because people play competively and want to win doesn't mean they are having any less fun. You hear this from the casual players alot. They assume playing seriously takes the fun from game the but fail to realise the satisfaction people get from doing well when they play competively. I suspect you don't feel sorry for people who are successful in competitive sports like soccer or rugby. Granted SF IV is a video game and isn't on the same level, but if people want to play it competively so be it.

Just for this point alone I like your post (taking out the scrub comment ). Would have a bone of contention with the last line - the reasoning behind it but that's another question for another thread I suppose.

Tier lists do matter on a general scale. While successful players could play with anyone from mid-tier up and do very well, you won't see a Dan go too far in a tournament setting. Skill levels and character knowledge can negate a characters weaknesses and boost their strengths but the tier is a foundation from which these build upon.

Cunny-Funt

I'm on the same page as A-trak regarding this. I don't care about tiers, and agree about what he said about the ryus and everyone knowing what to do against ryu due to there being so many. Even though I considered ryu my 'main' when I started playing sf4 (my main as in I liked him the most) I had a ton of success playing as guile in my early days even though I knew the character far less. Cause nobody new wtf to do against him,.

Azza wrote: »

If you have two players who want to get good at the game and they pick Vega and Sagat respectively and put an equal time of practice and play, learn there respective characters tributes, be able to perform combo's consistently, know the best way to punish an opponent and know the match ups in detail, I can tell you for sure the Sagat player is going to do alot better.

Not that I disagree with you but I really think theres also an element of player style that differs from player to player and that'll more suited to different characters.

Azza wrote: »

Just because people play competively and want to win doesn't mean they are having any less fun. You hear this from the casual players alot. They assume playing seriously takes the fun from game the but fail to realise the satisfaction people get from doing well when they play competively.

Yeah this is something I try to explain to my mates a lot, that the sheer enjoyment and rush I get from the game goes up with my level. I just love those intense games with really highly skilled players. Its something thats hard to explain tbh.

DarkTalant

I pay a bit of attention to tier lists but not until I've reached a decent level at the game and with the character I choose to play.

fake_roogle

I think they're useful as an observation, but should seldom be used as a hard rule to dictate a character as long as you're willing (and by that I mean actually spend the time to bring out the character's full potential, not using the tiers as an excuse for your loss) to work harder should you choose a lower tiered character.

I play Balrog who is one of the best characters in the game, but I never chose him because of his tier, I just like his style. I like the way I can switch it up and I like the way people freak out when they find out that I don't care if I have charge or not. Sure, he is one of the more commonly played characters and people may have an innate advantage over me where I do not know the matchup--but you still have to deal with him and his moves. There's 99 seconds on the clock, and I'm happy to use all of them to figure someone out and I think that's key for an uphill matchup. Just because I'm playing a Blanka doesn't mean the match is gonna be easy pickings--Simon Lau for example is still one tough player to beat because he knows to avoid doing stuff that I can punish/ultra for free and generally spaces himself well.

bush

I didnt even know what tier lists were when i started playing this game. I just picked a character that didnt need good execution and felt natural to play. No matter how good sagat is i dont think i could ever get good with him cos he doesnt feel natural to play with.

D4RK ONION

bush wrote: »

I didnt even know what tier lists were when i started playing this game. I just picked a character that didnt need good execution and felt natural to play. No matter how good sagat is i dont think i could ever get good with him cos he doesnt feel natural to play with.

Same. I started with ryu because I knew most of his move list from SF2, and the alpha series (I didn't realise he was a powerful beggar) but when I got to G2, it was clear that I wasn't cut out to use him at any kind of decent level. That's when I started to go through a lot of different characters. One day I decided to try honda, and I won the a G2 Championship with ease. Stuck with ever since.

Point is, I didn't find out where he was on the list til 2 nights ago, but I still feel that he is one of the most dangerous characters in the game when used correctly. As such I don't pay much attention to tier lists at all.

Ken B

Sometimes Vega's lack of options and invincibility frames(On wake up and in corners)can become very frustrating....I often think about changing my main, then I think 'feck it! I can't be bothered learning someone new!!'

Zaffy

In all honesty, tiers don't matter to me (Note I'm talking from a different game's perspective as SSBB) though I can definitely notice them. For example, Metaknight is a ridiculously quick paced character with very little laggy moves, and some very strong hits.

Whereas Ganon is a character with slow moves, which are laggy, and though he has strong hits, really doesn't get to hit very much.

I personally don't take too much stock in Tier lists for friendly playing, however when you look at tournament results around the world. Metaknight dominates.

chopperbyrne

Tier lists don't matter to me.

I generally just go for someone with a fun playstyle or who looks good aesthetically.

In WW I played Ryu who was the worst character in the game because Kens kick throw went further! I played Ryu because at the time I thought he looked cool.

In CE I played Bison who was far and away the best character in the game, but I played as him because I always wanted to while playing WW.

I still played as Bison in HF even though he was the worst character in the game.

In 3S I played as Alex and Necro, neither are anywhere near the top of the tier list.

I briefly played Rose in SFIV, but didn't like how she played so switched to Honda. Honda was getting a little boring so I played around with El Fuerte and now I'm playing around with Seth.

My execution isn't good enough for tier lists to matter to me as I can't even perform most characters B&Bs. This means I play very differently to how the characters are supposed to be played. Lots of poking and two hit combos!

If you watch any of the Inferno Ranbat vids, even without checking the names it's easy to tell if it's me or A-Trak playing.

So, although tiers matter at very high level, player playstyle will always be more important at every level.

Azza

RopeDrink wrote:

@Azza: I constantly punch out the point that I speak largely as a casual - However, regardless of how my post is percieved, I do understand and respect people's idea of fun IS competition and that players ideas of fun with the game can be/are all very different - I wasn't knocking that at all, mostly giving a casual perspective from a casual player.

The post was squarely aimed at my own level where players will very rarely ever do much better if they choose to 'live' by a tier list as the dominant factor in their choice of character, such as "Oh, it seems Sagat is at the top, I guess I'll use him then when playing online!"

I do realise that because you do frequently mention that. However in your last paragraph of your first post you actually said you where not referring to casual players.

RopeDrink wrote:

likely those who play SF4 as a sort of career or want of competition rather than those who just play casually

I know now you where referring to the whinners who just complain about match ups etc. They are not really people who are looking for a career or competition from the game, they are just sore loosers looking for excuses.

blag

I do pay attention to the tier lists but they make absolutely zero impact on the character I choose.

Long before SFIV was released I knew I'd be playing Bison,I played him extensively in ST and HF(where he was useless as Chopper already said).The main factor in that is that I'm very comfortable with Bison and find things in the game come natural for me with the character.

I agree with bush in that I don't feel comfortable with characters like Sagat and doubt whether I could play him to his full potential whereas Bison suits the way I like to play and I know I can win with him ,which I think is quite important when you're up against good opponents (or maybe that's just misplaced confidence )

If in SSFIV Bison happens to be bottom tier I'll still stick with him and likewise if he's top!

Azza

Thing is Blag, Bison does not play the same as he does in SF IV as he does in ST. He's gone from balls to wall all out offensive to a more zoning game.

Besides Bison is clearly bottom tier in ever game he is in. Even the games where he is top tier!.

blag

Azza wrote: »

Thing is Blag, Bison does not play the same as he does in SF IV as he does in ST. He's gone from balls to wall all out offensive to a more zoning game.

For sure you're right,I was a bit put out by that when I first played SFIV ,but I've come to accept that SFIV is a defence orientated game and tried to adjust accordingly.I still don't think I could do better with another character,or even want to play another character.

Cobelcog

I pay attention to tier lists in that it's interesting/fun enough just to see where everyone is. That'd be the extent of it though.

I do not give them any consideration when choosing my character. I choose a character based on how well they allow me to play the way I want to play. Outside factors such as tier lists and other players have little to no influence on it. While I don't deny that some characters are just downright better than other characters, I feel that player strengths and character strengths need to compliment each other for the best results.

Doctor DooM

I don't care about the tier list.


I read it, out of interest, but I could care less when it comes to character choice. I spend a month or two dicking round with a good few characters before I settle on one.

At one point it looked like Gouken was going to be my main.

All of the characters in SF4 have strengths and weaknesses. The game is in finding how your characters strengths can be used to overcome all of the cast, and avoid his weaknesses being exploited.

animaX

Wow, no terry bashing! New years resolutions really are working :P

To be perfectly honest, when I went to the first ranbat I didn't even own the game or an xbox but knew that sagat was quite powerful (and had played him a bit before in SF2 on the snes) so I just went with him.

But i do start to feel that its working against me since everyone knows the matchup so well (even I'm sick of sagats online!). Lately I've been trying to change (without thinking about the tier) but it'll be a while before I'm as comfortable with a new character as I am with sagat.

In any case, its hard to avoid knowledge of the tier list since those who use top tier will be flamed!

Ramza

I'm pretty much same as A-Trak, Doom, and Kirby. I usually mess around with a few characters before settling on a character which I think has a cool or fun playstyle that suits me. It's not like people look at a tier list and go "hmmm, such and such is low tier so I'm not gonna use such and such" (even though that individual may find that character fun/interesting). But back on point, when SF4 first came out, I started with Ryu for a while (just to get the game specific mechanics down, etc, and also because I know Ryu's moveset etc). I then tried Balrog, Sim and Gouki. I couldn't find a solid character I really liked. A few months ago I started to use Ken and I've taken him up as my main now. And I know in SF4 Ken is actually pretty low, right? (High-bottom, mid?). But I don't care at all, I really like his style etc and I've been sticking with him for the last few months now, so yeah

Just cause a character is low on the tier list doesn't mean you can't win (Stating what's known), I guess it just means you got to work harder. It really comes down to the individual and personal knowledge at the end of the day. Like A-Trak said, certain matchups require you to know certain things, etc, but it's all about playing your character and progressing.

Leprekaun

For me, honestly, it depends on who I'm playing against. If I'm playing against someone I haven't played much against then tiers don't really come into it that much since I play quite conservatively to start with so its more of a battle of normals. With players I've played against a lot, I only start having a significant advantage when I start using characters that I've newly learnt that my opponent wouldn't know the strengths (or haven't played many matches with me using that character) and vice versa if they use someone like Gief or Sagat. It also depends on player patterns. Sometimes there can be a player who plays on one strategy so if the other player is sharp enough to notice the patterns then it doesn't really matter who the other player uses because they'll always use the ideal move of their character to beat that pattern.

It has to be said though, I always seem to concentrate harder on top tier players so whenever I play against a Gief (or that doesn't really matter now since Dreddy is waay waaay better than me so I don't care as much ), Ryu or Sagat. Like you said, once you reach a serious level of play, its just mind games then.

D4RK ONION

And what about that Terry bloke? I mean GAWD!

animaX

D4RK ONION wrote: »

And what about that Terry bloke? I mean GAWD!

haha, it begins! As a side note; if honda got the ability to EX headbut through fireballs and became top tier would you stick with him?! Pretty damn sure you would!

Kirby

His EX version should go through fireballs imo. I know it does lethal amount of damage, but he needs a better tool then just jump punching his way forward.

D4RK ONION

Or if not his Ex, his medium or light should anyway. And I don't think that'd push him all the way up to sagat tier. It's nice to see your newest character still has more ultra set ups than... a... eh... a thing with lots of ultra set ups?

It will be interesting to see how the new characters are going to slot in, though I probably wont change. I might pick up a new second. And for the record, seth is not top tier!

Retr0gamer

I've stuck with Ryu since WW. However I'm thinking of switching to Ibuki for SSF4 since I've had so much fun with her in 3S. If she is bottom tier but fun to use I'll probably still use her.

Doctor DooM

Apparently Guile is getting proper ultra set ups in Super. Ono said it was a problem.

This could potentially fire him up the tier list but I will still pick him.

People are asking if I will switch to DeeJay for his faster projectiles but thats exactly why I won't- the slow boom makes invulnerable moves difficult to get through, part of his game.

Ken B

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Apparently Guile is getting proper ultra set ups in Super. Ono said it was a problem.

This could potentially fire him up the tier list but I will still pick him.

People are asking if I will switch to DeeJay for his faster projectiles but thats exactly why I won't- the slow boom makes invulnerable moves difficult to get through, part of his game.

And no doubt, the fact that Dee Jay has had a charisma bypass.....

Azza

Yeah Guile needs quite a few buffs, his lack of high damage options is a problem for him. He's combo's are quite tricky to perform and not all that powerful. He will never land his ultra outside of nailing a person crossing him up on wake up which is pretty iffy.

He needs help but not as much as Vega, that guys total inability to get off his back is comical.

Vega's ultra has to to be the worst in the game, its about the only ultra you can't use as a wake up reversal (not that its a great option). He does not have one move in his armoury that actually has any invincibility frames (his flip doesn't hit so it doesn't count). He badly needs something to counter meaty attacks. I'd say give his Scarlet Terror some invincible frames to stuff meaty attacks and he would be alot better. Probably go up to mid tier. I mean he is very good in the air and has got excellent pokes. Add a few ultra set ups and he be very solid.

Fei-Longs Ultra is down there with those 2 and maybe Honda's after that. Nothing for them but focus crumples set em up. Can go threw fireballs of course but you have to be close.

Ken B

Azza wrote: »

Yeah Guile needs quite a few buffs, his lack of high damage options is a problem for him. He's combo's are quite tricky to perform and not all that powerful. He will never land his ultra outside of nailing a person crossing him up on wake up which is pretty iffy.

He needs help but not as much as Vega, that guys total inability to get off his back is comical.

Vega's ultra has to to be the worst in the game, its about the only ultra you can't use as a wake up reversal (not that its a great option). He does not have one move in his armoury that actually has any invincibility frames (his flip doesn't hit so it doesn't count). He badly needs something to counter meaty attacks. I'd say give his Scarlet Terror some invincible frames to stuff meaty attacks and he would be alot better. Probably go up to mid tier. I mean he is very good in the air and has got excellent pokes. Add a few ultra set ups and he be very solid.

Fei-Longs Ultra is down there with those 2 and maybe Honda's after that. Nothing for them but focus crumples set em up. Can go threw fireballs of course but you have to be close.

Invincibility frames on the scarlet terror(to give it wake up properties), his hop med. kick to overhead and the ability to combo his ultra off his ST, Ex ST or CF roundhouse and I would be the happiest man in the world!!!
Otherwise I might take Dudley (or some other III character) for a spin......

Cobelcog

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Apparently Guile is getting proper ultra set ups in Super. Ono said it was a problem.

This could potentially fire him up the tier list but I will still pick him.

People are asking if I will switch to DeeJay for his faster projectiles but thats exactly why I won't- the slow boom makes invulnerable moves difficult to get through, part of his game.

Azza wrote: »

Yeah Guile needs quite a few buffs, his lack of high damage options is a problem for him. He's combo's are quite tricky to perform and not all that powerful. He will never land his ultra outside of nailing a person crossing him up on wake up which is pretty iffy.

Why can Guile never reach his full potential?


He's always holding back :pac: