Taxi Industry

murphaph

mikemac wrote: »

Deregulation so drivers can buy a cheaper taxi plate.
But the day after they buy they demand regulation to limit any new entrants

This is essentially true. Veronica has since stated that she joined taxiing recently (worked 30 years in PAYE employment). Clearly she took advantage of dregulation to get her hands on a plate, but now wants to "close the door behind her" as it were and prohibit new entrants.

Let's say you had to go part time Veronica (let's saw to look after someone ill, please God won't happen) and then found another part time job (let's say working from home, which would allow you to look after the person above but still make a few bob to supplement your income). In this situation, should you be booted out of taxiing?

I say you shouldn't!

veronica

murphaph wrote: »

This is essentially true. Veronica has since stated that she joined taxiing recently (worked 30 years in PAYE employment). Clearly she took advantage of dregulation to get her hands on a plate, but now wants to "close the door behind her" as it were and prohibit new entrants.

Let's say you had to go part time Veronica (let's saw to look after someone ill, please God won't happen) and then found another part time job (let's say working from home, which would allow you to look after the person above but still make a few bob to supplement your income). In this situation, should you be booted out of taxiing?

I say you shouldn't!

I have no problem with new entrants if they enter this industry like I did full time and I have two sons with a disablity who I work around who are in residential care but come home to us twice weekly.

howiya

veronica wrote: »

ONE PERSON ONE JOB....NO PART-TIMERS...NO STATE BENEFITS..JUST FAIRNESS!

Your point makes much more sense now that you have written it in capitals.

You are obviously a recent entrant into the taxi market if you have worked in another job for 30 years previous to becoming a taxi driver. You have benefited from deregulation, now you seem opposed to it.

murphaph

veronica wrote: »

I have no problem with new entrants if they enter this industry like I did full time and I have two sons with a disablity who I work around who are in residential care but come home to us twice weekly.

Could you answer my (hypothetical, but valid) question though? Here it is again:

Let's say you had to go part time Veronica (let's saw to look after someone ill, please God won't happen) and then found another part time job (let's say working from home, which would allow you to look after the person above but still make a few bob to supplement your income). In this situation, should you be booted out of taxiing?

veronica

howiya wrote: »

Your point makes much more sense now that you have written it in capitals.

You are obviously a recent entrant into the taxi market if you have worked in another job for 30 years previous to becoming a taxi driver. You have benefited from deregulation, now you seem opposed to it.

again no no no am not opposed to deregulation everybody has a right to work but all I ask is if you enter this market everyone should be full time so everyone is equal.CanI just ask in general why do people appear to dislike Taxi drivers?

Mrs OBumble

veronica wrote: »

your neighbour is entitlied to all state benefits if god forbid she get ill or loses her job. I am self employed pay tax like her but entilied to nothing!

Firstly, you ARE entitled to some benefits even if you're only paying class S PRSI. These include contributory pension credits, maternity benefit, and some others (look 'em up if you care).

Secondly, if you want to, you can CHOOSE to pay Class A PRSI (effectively the employer contribution yourself), and still have entitlement to the full range of benefits.

Thirdly, I think you've got off lightly in claiming that the industry should only be open to full-timer (how do you define these, btw?). What exactly have you got against

• Couples who choose to 3 or 4 days per week each so they can provide their own childcare without paying for it?
• Or people who choose to work part-time across several industries to reduce the the risk of losing their only job. (Seems to me that taxi-driving would be an ideal 2nd job if you were a retained fire-fighter.)
• Or people who are still saving for their own car, and are doing so by driving other people's cars in (assuming they're legal, of course).
• Or people who are studying to improve their chances of getting a better job, but need to maintain some income while they do it.
• Or people who've been driving a taxi for 30 years, and now want to cut their hours back but not give it up all together (assuming they're still safe to drive)
• Or folks driving specialist vehicles (eg vans with wheelchair hoists) that aren't needed for full-time hours each week
• Or ... really the list is endless ...

Also, you've not given us one solid reason why it should be full time. You have given us one why you think it should be the driver's sole income, but that's a different thing again. What's so special about taxi-driving that it should have to be a person's sole income, when this requirement isn't applied to any other type of self-employment?

And while you're thinking about that, what about the driver who's won say 500k in the Lotto, or inherited a portfolio of rental properties from a deceased relative, or married someone rich - should s/he have to give it up because of this?

/rant

veronica

murphaph wrote: »

Could you answer my (hypothetical, but valid) question though? Here it is again:

Let's say you had to go part time Veronica (let's saw to look after someone ill, please God won't happen) and then found another part time job (let's say working from home, which would allow you to look after the person above but still make a few bob to supplement your income). In this situation, should you be booted out of taxiing?

I can't see the point in your question but if this did happen like everyone else who pays tax in this country I should be entitlied to a carers allowance and surrender my licence but I am not entitlied to this another imbalance in my Industry.

veronica

JustMary wrote: »

Firstly, you ARE entitled to some benefits even if you're only paying class S PRSI. These include contributory pension credits, maternity benefit, and some others (look 'em up if you care).

Secondly, if you want to, you can CHOOSE to pay Class A PRSI (effectively the employer contribution yourself), and still have entitlement to the full range of benefits.

Thirdly, I think you've got off lightly in claiming that the industry should only be open to full-timer (how do you define these, btw?). What exactly have you got against

• Couples who choose to 3 or 4 days per week each so they can provide their own childcare without paying for it?
• Or people who choose to work part-time across several industries to reduce the the risk of losing their only job. (Seems to me that taxi-driving would be an ideal 2nd job if you were a retained fire-fighter.)
• Or people who are still saving for their own car, and are doing so by driving other people's cars in (assuming they're legal, of course).
• Or people who are studying to improve their chances of getting a better job, but need to maintain some income while they do it.
• Or people who've been driving a taxi for 30 years, and now want to cut their hours back but not give it up all together (assuming they're still safe to drive)
• Or folks driving specialist vehicles (eg vans with wheelchair hoists) that aren't needed for full-time hours each week
• Or ... really the list is endless ...

Also, you've not given us one solid reason why it should be full time. You have given us one why you think it should be the driver's sole income, but that's a different thing again. What's so special about taxi-driving that it should have to be a person's sole income, when this requirement isn't applied to any other type of self-employment?

And while you're thinking about that, what about the driver who's won say 500k in the Lotto, or inherited a portfolio of rental properties from a deceased relative, or married someone rich - should s/he have to give it up because of this?

/rant

Yes indeed this is as you say a rant nothing valid.

howiya

veronica wrote: »

again no no no am not opposed to deregulation everybody has a right to work but all I ask is if you enter this market everyone should be full time so everyone is equal.CanI just ask in general why do people appear to dislike Taxi drivers?

I don't dislike taxi drivers. I dislike your own attitude to road safety as you have demonstrated a clear disregard for the safety of your passengers and other road users.

mikemac

It was an excellent post by JustMary

Don't say the self-employed are not entitled to anything from social welfare. If you decide to make Class A contributions then then you can make a claim if you have enough contributions and meet all the conditions

You chose not to pay and then say the system won't support you.
Since you are self-employed and responsible for everything, you probably already know this

veronica

howiya wrote: »

I don't dislike taxi drivers. I do dislike you as you have demonstrated a clear disregard for the safety of your passengers and other road users.[/QUO

Look don't fool yourself the Taxi regulator knows that taxi drivers are working the hours that I have informed you about so if anybody has a clear disregard for safety it's her and the minister for transport they have been told this in Dail Eireann in the last two years!I am sorry you dislike me for telling you how it is!

veronica

mikemac wrote: »

It was an excellent post by JustMary

Don't say the self-employed are not entitled to anything from social welfare. If you decide to make Class A contributions then then you can make a claim if you have enough contributions and meet all the conditions

You chose not to pay and then say the system won't support you.
Since you are self-employed and responsible for everything, you probably already know this

I paid 30 years PAYE contributions what do u want my blood

murphaph

veronica wrote: »

I paid 30 years PAYE contributions what do u want my blood

Yeah, but then you chose to stop paying class A PRSI contibutions, so you're not entitled, morally OR legally to the benefits paying PRSI entails Veronica. It's really that simple.

Del2005

veronica wrote: »

again no no no am not opposed to deregulation everybody has a right to work but all I ask is if you enter this market everyone should be full time so everyone is equal.CanI just ask in general why do people appear to dislike Taxi drivers?

Because for years before deregulation you'd more chance of a getting shot then a taxi when trying to get back from a night out. Now we have plenty of taxis you start going on strike because there are too many taxis.

You've admitted on this forum that you've driven dangerously and then come on here giving out. No other service has entry restrictions. Do you think sparks, plumbers, mechanics, IT like part timers taking work? No they don't and they all require years of training. But I've never heard any of their "representative bodies" asking for part timers to be barred from doing the job.

As others have said. It's a service industry and supply will meet demand. The problem is that taxi drivers still think they're something special, anyone with a sat nav can now do the job.

murphaph

veronica wrote: »

I can't see the point in your question but if this did happen like everyone else who pays tax in this country I should be entitlied to a carers allowance and surrender my licence but I am not entitlied to this another imbalance in my Industry.

It's hard to understand what you're saying here. Should you have to give up taxiing in the circumstances I outlined above?

mikemac

There is a system in place, it applies to everyone
Your claim is judged on your last two years. It applies to me, you and every soul who emigrated and worked here. Same for everyone.

You seem to be taking it personally.

And realy, since I'm learning about drivers working stupid long hours and don't give a damn for my safety and other customers safety, I'm even less inclined to hire one, sorry.
Hope all full-timers aren't like you. Maybe we would be better off getting a mobile for part-timers who didn't work over 14 hours driving a day.

veronica

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you chose to stop paying class A PRSI contibutions, so you're not entitled, morally OR legally to the benefits paying PRSI entails Veronica. It's really that simple.

But surely 30 years of a persons contributions should not just disappear. A TD or MEP does 5 years and gets a benefit for life a member of the Army/Navy/Garda does 21 years gets a payment when they come out pension for life and can enter the Taxi ndustry still hang onto these benefits!Thanks for all your comments and if i upset anybody that was not my intention I am on my own here in this forum but i respect your views. I have another long day tomorrow so need to get some sleep. we agree to differ but please believe me when I say Ms. kathleen Doyle taxi Regulator is not the saviour of the taxi industry yes it's a lot easier to get a taxi @ 2am in the morning but the cost has been drivers working the hours I have given you and this is the true I wish it was not! I would like to also say that it's wrong when you post a comment on this site that you 'dislike a person' which someone did because I have a view...Thank u

howiya

Point taken. Post amened. Apologies if I caused any offence Veronica

jimmycrackcorm

If we're going to do the one job per person thing then why not go the whole hog and say one job per couple?

Spook_ie

Oh how I love these threads...

My own bugbear isn't about part timers or people with pensions etc. but more to do with PAYE and their entitlement to benefits such as sickness and invalidity pay, perhaps the equitable solution is that any person with what would be termed a self employed job, be that taxi driving, DJing, painting and decorating etc.should be paying Class S contributions on all their income including any from what would be normaly a PAYE job and forfitting their right to any Class A benefits, this would have a knock on effect that the employer of those people would then be able to save on the employers contribution to the PRSI ( no small amount in most cases ) and they wouldn't be so easily tempted into taking sickies or days off to do "nixers" or nights in the taxi.

As to the excessive hours being worked by some people in the taxitrade I have to agree that it does happen but stress that it is something that should be looked at to try and avoid happening. The only way I see that happening is by the implementation of the working hours act in some form or other BUT there also has to be some way of ensuring that drivers can be "reasonably" sure of earning enough money to pay their own wages and the expenses of running a taxi ( no-one said there was an easy solution ) from working constrained hours.

Of course we could cover the whole deregulation scenario ( yet again! ) and deregulate the fares so that we had a truly deregulated industry and people could sink or swim dependant on their business and negotiating skills instead of capping the maximum amount that a taxi driver can earn in any particular hour of the day.

murphaph

Spook_ie wrote: »

Oh how I love these threads...

My own bugbear isn't about part timers or people with pensions etc. but more to do with PAYE and their entitlement to benefits such as sickness and invalidity pay, perhaps the equitable solution is that any person with what would be termed a self employed job, be that taxi driving, DJing, painting and decorating etc.should be paying Class S contributions on all their income including any from what would be normaly a PAYE job and forfitting their right to any Class A benefits, this would have a knock on effect that the employer of those people would then be able to save on the employers contribution to the PRSI ( no small amount in most cases ) and they wouldn't be so easily tempted into taking sickies or days off to do "nixers" or nights in the taxi.

As to the excessive hours being worked by some people in the taxitrade I have to agree that it does happen but stress that it is something that should be looked at to try and avoid happening. The only way I see that happening is by the implementation of the working hours act in some form or other BUT there also has to be some way of ensuring that drivers can be "reasonably" sure of earning enough money to pay their own wages and the expenses of running a taxi ( no-one said there was an easy solution ) from working constrained hours.

Of course we could cover the whole deregulation scenario ( yet again! ) and deregulate the fares so that we had a truly deregulated industry and people could sink or swim dependant on their business and negotiating skills instead of capping the maximum amount that a taxi driver can earn in any particular hour of the day.

But it all comes back to the fact that taxiing is just another business. My mate (PAYE) had a T shirt printing business on the side (gone belly up due to recession recently) while he always worked full time as a PAYE employee. Should the T shirt printing companies been able to prevent him from operating his part time venture? Of course not.

maryjane007

i think the point of this thread is about people who work in full time jobs monday to friday and then go out in their taxis at the weekend, not people who choose to work part time because of other commitments ie family, part time jobs etc. this is not safe full stop, regardless of whether its morally right or wrong.

Taxipete29

Veronica, as someone who has recently left the business you are wasting your time with this argument. For every valid reason drivers have for not allowing part-timers, there is an equally valid reason for allowing them.
Part-timers will always be a part of the industry and its never going to change.

To be honest you should of known what you were getting into. I did when I entered the business. It was a risk vs reward decision. It paid off for the first 3 and a half years and didnt for the rest of the time. Thats why I got out. The regulator is there for the customer, not the driver. The public have alot of ill-feeling toward drivers because of strikes, pre-deregulation, their own bad experiences etc. They dont care either.

Just a quick point to RoverJames. No taxi driver employs another driver. Those drivers who cosied ,rented the cars and are self-employed themselves

Mrs OBumble

veronica wrote: »

I paid 30 years PAYE contributions what do u want my blood

Finally something we agree on!

Yes, the system which says that your 30 years of insurance payments don't count once you're moved to Class S is stupid, because it doesn't take account of the fact that your are likely to need social assistance more at certain times of your life, and because it discourages entrepreneurship in case something goes wrong.

(I guess it was originally designed to be "business friendly" and let self-employed people pay a lower tax-rate. Seems to me they forgot to think through the consequences though.)

Long term, speak to your TD about it. Fixing the problem needs a law change.

Short term, you can choose to pay Class A. Talk to your accountant, or revenue if your accountant looks vague or tells you it's not possible.





NB I called them "insurance payments" rather than "contributions", since the I stands for insurance. I find it helps people to understand what the whole thing is all about .

SC024

If you are self-emplyed why do you have trade unions'?

If your self employed im sure you can understand the laws of supply & demand?

steph1 wrote: »

Well as a taxi driver myself I work what hours I want. Mostly I work nights but sometimes I would work a few hours in the day if it suited me. We are self employed people and business people and I think its no business of the regulator what hours people are working. My business operates from the mobile phone so if its turned on I'm working and if its not then people will ring somebody else. Most of my regular customers are out at night so thats why I work nights.
Just because somebody is on a pension does not mean that its a big fat one. Remember people retire from jobs for a variety of reasons and if they want to drive a taxi part-time thats their own business and once they are making a return to revenue I dont have a problem with that.
I worked in offices years ago and the pay was crap and I had to do a couple of nights in a pub to supplement my income. In these times people may only half three day week jobs and they need to pay their mortgage their bills look after their families and they will do what it takes to do that. I know people who have two and three jobs all days here and there but thats what they have to do.

Spook_ie

murphaph wrote: »

But it all comes back to the fact that taxiing is just another business. My mate (PAYE) had a T shirt printing business on the side (gone belly up due to recession recently) while he always worked full time as a PAYE employee. Should the T shirt printing companies been able to prevent him from operating his part time venture? Of course not.

No but should he have been made to give up his A class stamops as a PAYE and only allowed S class as a self employed, I wouldn't have a problem with that. He might have though when he realised that he couldn't claim any of the normal entitlements

Spook_ie

mikemac wrote: »

It was an excellent post by JustMary

Don't say the self-employed are not entitled to anything from social welfare. If you decide to make Class A contributions then then you can make a claim if you have enough contributions and meet all the conditions

You chose not to pay and then say the system won't support you.
Since you are self-employed and responsible for everything, you probably already know this

Don't believe you are allowed to opt to pay A class.

Spook_ie

JustMary wrote: »

Finally something we agree on!

Yes, the system which says that your 30 years of insurance payments don't count once you're moved to Class S is stupid, because it doesn't take account of the fact that your are likely to need social assistance more at certain times of your life, and because it discourages entrepreneurship in case something goes wrong.

(I guess it was originally designed to be "business friendly" and let self-employed people pay a lower tax-rate. Seems to me they forgot to think through the consequences though.)

Long term, speak to your TD about it. Fixing the problem needs a law change.

Short term, you can choose to pay Class A. Talk to your accountant, or revenue if your accountant looks vague or tells you it's not possible.





NB I called them "insurance payments" rather than "contributions", since the I stands for insurance. I find it helps people to understand what the whole thing is all about .

I was unaware that I paid less tax than anyone else. If anything euro for euro I pay more tax as I don't get the PAYE allowence.

Taxipete29

Spook_ie wrote: »

I was unaware that I paid less tax than anyone else. If anything euro for euro I pay more tax as I don't get the PAYE allowence.

Get a new accountant imo

Spook_ie

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Get a new accountant imo

Don't need a new accountant, it's very simple


Overall Business Income less Allowable charges/expenses etc. = taxable income. The tax I pay on the taxable income is the same as anyone else apart from I can't claim PAYE allowance of €1830 for 2009 as I'm self employed.

As stated before perhaps all those who are self employed and PAYE should be made to pay Class S contributions only and help out the economy and their employers to survive the recession. or is it still a case of greed is good

Taxipete29

Spook_ie wrote: »

Don't need a new accountant, it's very simple


Overall Business Income less Allowable charges/expenses etc. = taxable income. The tax I pay on the taxable income is the same as anyone else apart from I can't claim PAYE allowance of €1830 for 2009 as I'm self employed.

As stated before perhaps all those who are self employed and PAYE should be made to pay Class S contributions only and help out the economy and their employers to survive the recession. or is it still a case of greed is good

Yes but you claim for the fuel you use driving to and from your home. Most PAYE workers pay transport costs in some form and get no relief. It balances out

Spook_ie

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Yes but you claim for the fuel you use driving to and from your home. Most PAYE workers pay transport costs in some form and get no relief. It balances out

No, I pay for fuel when I'm taxiing, as a full time taxi driver if my neighbour or someone at the end of the street flags me down I'll take them, that's what the job is. Perhaps that might apply to someone with only a Dublin license who lives in Cavan, but as the majority of drivers I know from Cavan and Navan also have the local license if they had the correct ID on display they can do so to

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Just a quick point to RoverJames. No taxi driver employs another driver. Those drivers who cosied ,rented the cars and are self-employed themselves

Sorry to disagree, what I am referring to is taxi drivers who have someone else driving ther car when they themselves are not driving it, the person who own the taxi looks after the insurance for the 2nd driver and fuels the car, they then take 60% of the takings the 2nd drivers keeping 40%, if you think that isn't going on you are mad. Do you think all the part timers Veronica is referring to are renting the cars and are self employed ?

Taxipete29

RoverJames wrote: »

Sorry to disagree, what I am referring to is taxi drivers who have someone else driving ther car when they themselves are not driving it, the person who own the taxi looks after the insurance for the 2nd driver and fuels the car, they then take 60% of the takings the 2nd drivers keeping 40%, if you think that isn't going on you are mad. Do you think all the part timers Veronica is referring to are renting the cars and are self employed ?

What you are talking about is cosying and thats not how it works. Most part-timers use the family car. I know guys who rent cars for a living. You can rent a car for the weekend at a special rate. I have never heard of the situation you describe. Even pre-deregulation that was not the weay it was done.

howiya

Spook_ie wrote: »

No, I pay for fuel when I'm taxiing

Are you saying you don't write off fuel as an allowable expense? Maybe you do need a new accountant

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

What you are talking about is cosying and thats not how it works. Most part-timers use the family car. I know guys who rent cars for a living. You can rent a car for the weekend at a special rate. I have never heard of the situation you describe. Even pre-deregulation that was not the weay it was done.

It's the way it was done in Cork anyway, I know it for a fact. Also quite popular it was, 50% of the lads in one city centre base were working like that, some in the bases cars and others for owner drivers.

Taxipete29

Spook_ie wrote: »

No, I pay for fuel when I'm taxiing, as a full time taxi driver if my neighbour or someone at the end of the street flags me down I'll take them, that's what the job is. Perhaps that might apply to someone with only a Dublin license who lives in Cavan, but as the majority of drivers I know from Cavan and Navan also have the local license if they had the correct ID on display they can do so to

Look you know what I meant. The fact is that you dont pay more tax in any shape or form than a PAYE worker, you most likely pay alot less. I know I did for 5 years.

Taxipete29

RoverJames wrote: »

It's the way it was done in Cork anyway, I know it for a fact. Also quite popular it was, 50% of the lads in one city centre base were working like that, some in the bases cars and others for owner drivers.

Thats fair enough. I can only speak for Dublin. Thats a pretty crap deal for the 2nd driver.

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Look you know what I meant. The fact is that you dont pay more tax in any shape or form than a PAYE worker, you most likely pay alot less. I know I did for 5 years.

Surely you didn't indulge in creative accounting, few fares a shift not going in the books, tut tut if you did. Otherwise I fail to see how you could "pay alot less" than a PAYE worker

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Thats fair enough. I can only speak for Dublin. Thats a pretty crap deal for the 2nd driver.

Not really, as Veronica points out many of them have full time jobs, a few years ago on a Thurs, Fri and Sat night only working to 4 am they could be getting 40% of €250 plus tips tax free (per night) as they were not on the books. Also no doubt the odd job would have gone in the straight in the back pocket and the owner wouldn't have seen his 60%.

Cork is so small a cute driver could do 5 or 6 €10 spins an hour between 1.30 and 3 am before the glut of taxis came about.

Taxipete29

RoverJames wrote: »

Surely you didn't indulge in creative accounting, few fares a shift not going in the books, tut tut if you did. Otherwise I fail to see how you could "pay alot less" than a PAYE worker

My conscience is clear.

Spook_ie

howiya wrote: »

Are you saying you don't write off fuel as an allowable expense? Maybe you do need a new accountant

I didn't say that, what I said, in different words, is that all my fuel is used taxiing, I am a full time taxi driver, I only use my car for taxiing, I don't drive the kids to school in it, I don't take the wife shopping in it. 100% on the road it's available for taxiing, the only exception I make is when it's drawing near to the end of a shift when I might decline to take someone in the opposite direction of home on safety and tiredness grounds.

Just to set your mind at ease all expenditure on my vehicle is receipted and written off appropriately against business income. Any that's left over is then subject to taxation etc. quite simple and no need for an accountant as I' don't have enough left over to invest in anything other than a standard PRSA, no stocks. no shares, no 2nd/3rd home, no deeds of covenant , no stud horses or whatever the latest tax avoidence scheme that people use.

Sorry just thought of one other instance when I might drive it and not be available for hire and that's when I'm taking it to the garage for a service or whatever