Liverpool vs Reading 2/1/10 FA Cup 3rd Round Match Thread

Sir Gallagher

spockety wrote: »

Aye, it's nothing to do with the fact that our first choice left winger is out through injury or anything.

No, the fact is that he's a left full and he shouldn't be there when we've got two better options there ahead of him.

Tusky

Terrible performance, particularly in the second half. Insua had an awful game, constantly giving the ball away. Kuyt continued his horrible form and apart from a nice cross in the first half, contributed nothing. Aurelio on the left was also poor. I just fail to see how Kuyt on the right wing and Aurelio on the left wing is a good idea. Gerrard was also poor, as was Aquilani when he came on.

Reina, Lucas, N'Gog and Torres were the only ones who stood out as having good games.

dannydiamond

I thought Kuyt had a relatively good game and he had a large part in the goal.

Sir Gallagher

dannydiamond wrote: »

I thought Kuyt had a relatively good game and he had a large part in the goal.

I agree, i thought he played well in the first half, the whole team seemed to fall apart in the second half though.

monkey9

Tusky wrote: »

Terrible performance, particularly in the second half. Insua had an awful game, constantly giving the ball away. Kuyt continued his horrible form and apart from a nice cross in the first half, contributed nothing. Aurelio on the left was also poor. I just fail to see how Kuyt on the right wing and Aurelio on the left wing is a good idea. Gerrard was also poor, as was Aquilani when he came on.

Reina, Lucas, N'Gog and Torres were the only ones who stood out as having good games.

I though Ngog was a bit poor today. Well, maybe not poor, but very quiet. I don't think he played that well.

I'm struggling to think of good individual performances. Torres, Lucas in the first half in particular.

There's nothing positive really to be taken from tonight's match. Just hopefully we can do them at Anfield and just forget about this sorry round!!

Sir Gallagher

When is the replay on anyway?

Rekop dog

dannydiamond wrote: »

I thought Kuyt had a relatively good game and he had a large part in the goal.

Yeah I thought it was very clever on his part for the goal. Unbelievable tekkers!

SlickRic

so what the f*ck happened?

i missed it, but i think i might be glad I did...

anyone care to summise?

i see Aurelio and Kuyt were on either wing.

that must have been awesome.

Spiritoftheseventies

SlickRic wrote: »

so what the f*ck happened?

i missed it, but i think i might be glad I did...

anyone care to summise?

i see Aurelio and Kuyt were on either wing.

that must have been awesome.

What happened? Team went to sleep after the break. And torres missed a sitter near the end.

SlickRic

if the thread is accurate - i've just had a very quick skim over - it seems Reading worked very hard making it difficult for us, and we didn't have the quality to break them down.

i also notice people hinting that the players were very constrained in their positions as usual.

i don't understand Rafa not wanting to give any players any freedom at all...especially against Reading.

it's a problem that has been so apparent this season, especially as team seem to have figured out how to play against our 'direct from the back to Torres' football. until players, like Lucas, have the freedom to take on defences when they see fit in the context of a match, we will continue to struggle.

an injured Torres continues to play through pain and lack of fitness in an effort to drag us through this.

f*cking woeful state of affairs.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

if the thread is accurate - i've just had a very quick skim over - it seems Reading worked very hard making it difficult for us, and we didn't have the quality to break them down.

i also notice people hinting that the players were very constrained in their positions as usual.

i don't understand Rafa not wanting to give any players any freedom at all...especially against Reading.

it's a problem that has been so apparent this season, especially as team seem to have figured out how to play against our 'direct from the back to Torres' football. until players, like Lucas, have the freedom to take on defences when they see fit in the context of a match, we will continue to struggle.

an injured Torres continues to play through pain and lack of fitness in an effort to drag us through this.

f*cking woeful state of affairs.

Do you think Torres should be rested/let have his op and get over his injury properly Slick?

Spiritoftheseventies

Lucas played most of the second half playing in front of the back four moping up the play. Insua spent most of the game giving away silly frees, Gerrard was very lethargic and Aquilani needs to get stuck in more. And then there was that Torres miss right at the end.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Lucas played most of the second half playing in front of the back four moping up the play. Insua spent most of the game giving away silly frees, Gerrard was very lethargic and Aquilani needs to get stuck in more. And then there was that Torres miss right at the end.

Kuyt also was terrible again.

Podge2k7

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

When is the replay on anyway?

Wednesday week.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

Kuyt also was terrible again.

To be fair he did well in first half. Let that be put on record.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

To be fair he did well in first half. Let that be put on record.

No, he did OK in the build up to the goal, but otherwise was poor and then deteriorated into horrendous in the second 45.

NukaCola

Why didnt Rafa play some of the young lads in the reserves, they might have looked a bit more interested at the very least.

Those lads should be ashamed TBH.

Liverpool were poison today.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

No, he did OK in the build up to the goal, but otherwise was poor and then deteriorated into horrendous in the second 45.

Put over a good cross for Torres as well. Think its important we don't adopt a totalitarian approach in our criticisms of players. God forbid Kuyt put in a good half for us. Would destroy morale here.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Put over a good cross for Torres as well. Think its important we don't adopt a totalitarian approach in our criticisms of players. God forbid Kuyt put in a good half for us. Would destroy morale here.

This doesn't constitute a good half.

flahavaj

flahavaj wrote: »

Kuyt also was terrible again.

He played well first half. You obviously didnt watch the match.

NukaCola

rarnes1 wrote: »

He played well first half. You obviously didnt watch the match.

FFS Football is a game of 2 halves......Hes been ****e for the majority of the season, and i know he's not the only one but how can anyone defend any player after that display today?

Spiritoftheseventies

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

FFS Football is a game of 2 halves......Hes been ****e for the majority of the season, and i know he's not the only one but how can anyone defend any player after that display today?

You assess player on the merits of the game. Not on how they have done throughout the season. And i think Kuyt was an improvement on previous games. Gerrard I thought was quiet in the second half.

BumbleBee123

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

FFS Football is a game of 2 halves......Hes been ****e for the majority of the season, and i know he's not the only one but how can anyone defend any player after that display today?

The poster said that Kuyt was sh1te again today. I just pointed out that he wasn't in the first half.

I know he's been below par this season, who doesn't?

Far worse players for us though. Insua should never wear the shirt again imo.

Thanks for letting me know there's 2 halves in a match btw.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

You assess player on the merits of the game. Not on how they have done throughout the season. And i think Kuyt was an improvement on previous games. Gerrard I thought was quiet in the second half.

If you're judging his performance based on previous games in the season likle you say then you're contradicting yourself.

Also if a player gave a 2/10 performance one week and then a 3/10 the next they shouldn't be criticised for being poor, just because they were slightly better on the previou week's showing. Makes no sense, sorry.

flahavaj

rarnes1 wrote: »

He played well first half. You obviously didnt watch the match.

Yes I did. Tell me what he did so well in the first half?

NukaCola

bayviewclose wrote: »

You assess player on the merits of the game. Not on how they have done throughout the season. And i think Kuyt was an improvement on previous games. Gerrard I thought was quiet in the second half.

I assessed the players on how they have played this season. The majority have been poor.

On this game, honestly if you think anyone played well i wont waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

They were ****ing awful....horrible to watch and overall depressing...

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

To be fair he did well in first half. Let that be put on record.

i didn't see the game bar the highlights that were just on.

but if all he did was that one cross to Torres in the 1st half, and miss the ball for Gerrard's goal, and then do his usual 'mis-controlling, cr*p passing and lack of ability to beat players on the wing' routine, then it wasn't good enough.

flah, on Torres...

i am in two minds in a very uncomfortable way.

we are not playing well enough to not have him, but we are very over-reliant on him. from watching this season with him in the team, everything is based on getting the ball to him quickly and seeing what he can do. there is only so many times he can do everything on his own. but the way Rafa is setting his team out, even when N'Gog is in the team instead of Torres, he is completely reliant on individual magic or a bit of luck.

what i'm getting at with this is...

maybe if Torres goes an has his operation, Rafa might be forced into changing his beloved system, because i'm pretty confident it will rarely work well without Torres. it's not fluid, it doesn't create us chances, and it's not very effective.

remember when Rafa stumbled across the system he's playing now? he was forced into it. i can't remember the circumstances, but Gerrard was playing on the right, had his amazing scoring season, then he was moved in behind Torres for some reason. i seem to remember people saying he was forced into it. it worked, and teh system we see in place now has been there ever since.

so part of me wants him to, if he definitely needs it, have it so;

1. he's 100% for maybe run in to the end of the season
2. we might find a new way of playing if Rafa's forced into the corner of not having Torres to completely rely on.

but part of me wants to keep him off the surgeon's table, because without his magic i shudder at our prospects for the rest of the season.

and on a related note, Rafa cuts the figure of a man who knows he's a dead man walking, whether people think that he should go or not.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

If you're judging his performance based on previous games in the season likle you say then you're contradicting yourself.

Also if a player gave a 2/10 performance one week and then a 3/10 the next they shouldn't be criticised for being poor, just because they were slightly better on the previou week's showing. Makes no sense, sorry.

What im saying is people get conditioned to criticising a player and that is the case with Kuyt at moment today. The general consensus is he did well in first half. not good after the break.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

i didn't see the game bar the highlights that were just on.

but if all he did was that one cross to Torres in the 1st half, and miss the ball for Gerrard's goal, and then do his usual 'mis-controlling, cr*p passing and lack of ability to beat players on the wing' routine, then it wasn't good enough.

flah, on Torres...

i am in two minds in a very uncomfortable way.

we are not playing well enough to not have him, but we are very over-reliant on him. from watching this season with him in the team, everything is based on getting the ball to him quickly and seeing what he can do. there is only so many times he can do everything on his own. but the way Rafa is setting his team out, even when N'Gog is in the team instead of Torres, he is completely reliant on individual magic or a bit of luck.

what i'm getting at with this is...

maybe if Torres goes an has his operation, Rafa might be forced into changing his beloved system, because i'm pretty confident it will rarely work well without Torres. it's not fluid, it doesn't create us chances, and it's not very effective.

remember when Rafa stumbled across the system he's playing now? he was forced into it. i can't remember the circumstances, but Gerrard was playing on the right, had his amazing scoring season, then he was moved in behind Torres for some reason. i seem to remember people saying he was forced into it. it worked, and teh system we see in place now has been there ever since.

so part of me wants him to, if he definitely needs it, have it so;

1. he's 100% for maybe run in to the end of the season
2. we might find a new way of playing if Rafa's forced into the corner of not having Torres to completely rely on.

but part of me wants to keep him off the surgeon's table, because without his magic i shudder at our prospects for the rest of the season.

and on a related note, Rafa cuts the figure of a man who knows he's a dead man walking, whether people think that he should go or not.

IMO, if he needs an op he should have an op. I'm a huge believer in thinking long term with an asset such as Torres. He truly is the jewel in the crown at liverpool. Better to get him sorted now rather than have him playing at 80% for weeks on end until the injury recurs or worsens (which it inevitably will at some stage). Hes too precious an asset to risk permanently damaging. I'd sooner have him miss a few months now and be raring to go for the business end of the season than have him miss the important weeks.

Re Benitez, I agree its like the fight has gone out of him and hes just going through the motions.

NukaCola

rarnes1 wrote: »

The poster said that Kuyt was sh1te again today. I just pointed out that he wasn't in the first half.

I know he's been below par this season, who doesn't?

Far worse players for us though.

Kuyt was ****e, what did he do in the first half?
Very little...
He wasnt the only one, but we are discussing Kuyt, no?

NukaCola

rarnes1 wrote: »

Thanks for letting me know there's 2 halves in a match btw.

Your welcome

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

IMO, if he needs an op he should have an op. I'm a huge believer in thinking long term with an asset such as Torres. He truly is the jewel in the crown at liverpool. Better to get him sorted now rather than have him playing at 80% for weeks on end until the injury recurs or worsens (which it inevitably will at some stage). Hes too precious an asset to risk permanently damaging. I'd sooner have him miss a few months now and be raring to go for the business end of the season than have him miss the important weeks.

Re Benitez, I agree its like the fight has gone out of him and hes just going through the motions.

Big game up against Spurs which will be massive for us. And think we can take them at Anfield. No point looking beyond that.

flahavaj

flahavaj wrote: »

Yes I did. Tell me what he did so well in the first half?

He was lively in the first half and involved in any attack we had.

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

Big game up against Spurs which will be massive for us. And think we can take them at Anfield. No point looking beyond that.

that's got nothing to do with what we were talking about.

of course it's one game at a time.

the question was whether we think we should keep playing Torres at less than 100%.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Big game up against Spurs which will be massive for us. And think we can take them at Anfield. No point looking beyond that.

Short term thinking. Benitez has a responsibility to see the bigger picture with regard to Torres and his injury.

Spiritoftheseventies

player ratings from goal.com
Kuyt getting sixes and sevens on most threads.
LIVERPOOL

Pepe Reina - 6 - Perhaps at fault for Church's goal, as he seemed to think the ball was heading into touch. Made amends with a smart save from Sigurdsson in the second half, and some good punches under pressure.

Stephen Darby - 6.5 - Looked full of nerves to begin with, but made a couple of key interventions which helped settle him down. Was a lot better in the second half, and showed a sense of adventure with a couple of daring runs from deep.

Jamie Carragher - 6 - Struggled when left isolated against Church or McAnuff, but as ever found himself in the right position to make several big blocks and tackles.

Martin Skrtel - 6 - Covered pretty well, although his willingness to get tight might have resulted in a penalty on Sigurdsson. A few moments of indecision went unpunished, and he found Rasiak a tricky customer.

Emiliano Insua - 5 - Was troubled by McAnuff's pace, picking up a booking for a cynical shirt-pull, and his distribution from left-back was too often aimless. The Argentine has been much improved in recent weeks, but struggled here.

Dirk Kuyt - 6.5 - Clever dummy allowed Gerrard's cross to beat Federici, and he looked lively in the first half. Less effective in the second but was probably - with Darby - one of Liverpool's better performers overall.

Lucas Leiva - 6 - Took a blow to the face early on, but was a stellar performer in midfield. Passed the ball reasonably well, put his foot in, and his bursts forward helped Liverpool threaten on the counter.

Steven Gerrard - 6 - Levelled matters with a well-angled cross which beat Federici, and created one chance for Torres with a beautifully curled pass, but was as guilty as anyone of wasting possession in midfield.

Fabio Aurelio - 5 - Missed a couple of presentable chances on his left-foot, and was affected by the malaise which gripped the Reds at times, conceding possession far too easily. Needed to help Insua more too.

Fernando Torres - 6 - Burst into life on a couple of occasions, heading wide and being denied by Federici in the first half. Always looked likely to pick up a goal, but was left frustrated as a late header landed on the top of the net.

David Ngog - 5 - Could maybe have held the ball up a bit better, and drifted round the periphary of the game too much. Had a few useful moments, but it was no surprise when he was withdrawn for Aquilani on 67 minutes.

Substitutes

Alberto Aquilani - 5.5 - Brought on to help his side keep the ball better, and his presence did enable Liverpool to get a bit more possession. Dwelt too long on a couple of occasions, but looked positive and confident at least.

Yossi Benayoun - 6 - On for the woeful Aurelio, and almost engineered a winning goal for Torres in stoppage time.


http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2572/fa-cup/2010/01/02/1721420/fa-cup-player-ratings-reading-1-1-liverpool

flahavaj

Kuyt being rated as having played better than Torres = FAIL.

Actually Kuyt being Liverpool's best player is laughable.

Lucas was really good.

HashSlinging

Thought Reading were really up for it tonight, Liverpool again played fairly consistent. People saying poor torres wtf? he'd enough chances tonight to knock one in.. another great performance from Lucas..

flahavaj

flahavaj wrote: »

Kuyt being rated as having played better than Torres = FAIL.

Let it go !

Btw, a you a pool supporter? You seem very anti-pool or is it just anti-Rafa?

flahavaj

rarnes1 wrote: »

Let it go !

Btw, a you a pool supporter? You seem very anti-pool or is it just anti-Rafa?

:eek:

Christ no.

I think Benitez is the best out there for Liverpool at the moment, but he has several fundaental flaws that are holding back the club at the moment. Theres just no one better than him available at the moment.

NukaCola

Hopefully Rafa can bring in some quality during the Jan transfer window....maybe he can shake some of those players and remind them who they are playing for....

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

Short term thinking. Benitez has a responsibility to see the bigger picture with regard to Torres and his injury.

Thought Torres looked lively in first half. very sharp. But struggled a bit after the break. Rafa to be fair tends to adopt a very cautious approach with his players. Has given Torres a lot of time to recover.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Thought Torres looked lively in first half. very sharp. But struggled a bit after the break. Rafa to be fair tends to adopt a very cautious approach with his players. Has given Torres a lot of time to recover.

If theres an op needed he should just have it IMO. Its clear to me hes not 100% and not able to run full tilt like he usually does.

SlickRic

flahavaj wrote: »

Lucas was really good.

it's extremely annoying that we're going through our worst ever run while he has personally come on leaps and bounds.

his improvement therefore will not be acknowledged by many.

still no world beater, but has become very competent in the middle of the field.

i honestly think, if he was given a bit of freedom in there, we could see an awful lot more from him.

maybe swap him and gerrard round for a couple of games? it couldn't hurt.

HashSlinging

flahavaj wrote: »

:eek:
he has several fundaental flaws that are holding back the club at the moment. .

Care to share what these fundamental flaws are.. is Gerrard the issue or maybe Torres..

flahavaj

HashSlinging wrote: »

Care to share what these fundamental flaws are.. is Gerrard the issue or maybe Torres..

Stubbornness would be the main one. Tactical inflexibility, the apparent lack of a plan B. Persistent over cautiousness in his tactical approach. Not encouraging freedom to players to express themselves or be a little more fluid like other top teams do. Key decisions such as bringing in Aquilani when he knew he was injured, in a season when all the big teams were likely to have fallen back and hitting the ground running with good results was of paramount importance: Liverpool will never have had a better chance to lift the league than this one.

I could go on and I'm happy to discuss this further in the Rafa thread if you like.:)

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

it's extremely annoying that we're going through our worst ever run while he has personally come on leaps and bounds.

his improvement therefore will not be acknowledged by many.

still no world beater, but has become very competent in the middle of the field.

i honestly think, if he was given a bit of freedom in there, we could see an awful lot more from him.

maybe swap him and gerrard round for a couple of games? it couldn't hurt.

This basically is part of my problem with Benitez.

SlickRic

HashSlinging wrote: »

Care to share what these fundamental flaws are.. is Gerrard the issue or maybe Torres..

you don't think he has any flaws?

he's been brilliant for us, and he's as good as we'll get right now i think, and we should not take his tenure for granted, but i really believe he needs to change certain things about his approach.

he's too rigid in how he wants to play. if plan A doesn't work, there is no plan B. last season plan A worked most of the time. this season teams have learned how to contain us it seems.

and Rafa seems to have no answer apart from 'work harder, and do the same things.'

this is the flaw that is of most concern to me; that he will not change his system when things aren't going according to plan.

starbelgrade

SlickRic wrote: »

you don't think he has any flaws?

Rafa has lots of flaws - not great in the transfer market, not great at winning trophies & spends far too much time writing stuff in a notebook instead of actually managing the team on the field.

What goes in those notebooks anyway? And when will he ever wake up to the fact that hardback notebooks are so much easier to write in when you only have your knee to lean on?

HashSlinging

I think the players themselves have a lot to answer for with the performances, its simple to blame Rafa as he's been cast into a stage act but calling him Tactically inflexible.. now dont get me wrong I think he's a tactical genius.. he's working with some players that shouldn't be wearing a red jersey, how much responsibility has he had for bringing all of the players in.. do you know ??