No transport at night in Dublin except expensive taxis

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The night time service does need an overhaul, and some form of redesign as a normal bus service that picks up and sets down en route. However I remain to be convinced that there is huge demand out there for such a service. The fact that no private operators have even tried starting one speaks volumes. Dublin is not a 24-hour city to the same degree as continental Europe or indeed many UK cities.

Finnegans run a (limited) nite link service to Bray.

It still has a value, only €5 rather than €50 to get home after a night out... Yes please!

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Finnegans run a (limited) nite link service to Bray.

It still has a value, only €5 rather than €50 to get home after a night out... Yes please!

Indeed, and one has to admire Finnegans for doing it - but that is one and one only route which runs on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights.

No one else has even tried operating a service elsewhere in the city, on for example Monday-Thursdays when the Dublin Bus service does not run. That in itself speaks volumes.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Indeed, and one has to admire Finnegans for doing it - but that is one and one only route which runs on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights.

No one else has even tried operating a service elsewhere in the city, on for example Monday-Thursdays when the Dublin Bus service does not run. That in itself speaks volumes.

I agree completely.

I suppose you could argue that if you live near the airport there's 24 bus service to take you home

Chucky the tree

JHMEG wrote: »

Wrong again!

I usually socialise locally as if I'm in Dublin I have to finish socialising at 11:20pm as the last 66 is at 11:30pm. Otherwise I'm looking at €€€ to get home as there's "No transport at night in Dublin except expensive taxis" (thread title), as the 66N only runs at weekends, and from very few stops.

I am actually surprised that the Vintners haven't managed to influence things. The city centre pubs are well served by Nitelinks (weekends), but the likes of say Ryan's of Parkgate St are not, despite having loads of bus stops within 2 mins walk.

Point is still the same, I presume you knew you would be out late and had a chance to figure out a way to get home but didn't bother checking the DB website.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

No one else has even tried operating a service elsewhere in the city, on for example Monday-Thursdays when the Dublin Bus service does not run. That in itself speaks volumes.

We also don't know if anyone applied to the DoT and was refused.

I think if the govenment had a problem with drunken hoards filling up the city centre around the same time on weekend nights they should have reformed the drink laws first, public transport 2nd, and then if there was a need for more taxis address that 3rd.

As serving drink between 2:30am and 10:30am is a no-no, pubs, clubs, eateries etc all have to close and Dublin will never be a 24hr city, and as a country we'll continue to have public disorder problems that go with ejecting drunken hoards onto the streets at the same time every night.

antoinolachtnai

Well, to be fair, it is very difficult to run a late night service in isolation from the daily route.

Absurdum

JHMEG wrote: »

I think if the govenment had a problem with drunken hoards filling up the city centre around the same time on weekend nights they should have reformed the drink laws first, public transport 2nd, and then if there was a need for more taxis address that 3rd.

As serving drink between 2:30am and 10:30am is a no-no, pubs, clubs, eateries etc all have to close and Dublin will never be a 24hr city, and as a country we'll continue to have public disorder problems that go with ejecting drunken hoards onto the streets at the same time every night.

nail on head there

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

We also don't know if anyone applied to the DoT and was refused.

I think if the govenment had a problem with drunken hoards filling up the city centre around the same time on weekend nights they should have reformed the drink laws first, public transport 2nd, and then if there was a need for more taxis address that 3rd.

As serving drink between 2:30am and 10:30am is a no-no, pubs, clubs, eateries etc all have to close and Dublin will never be a 24hr city, and as a country we'll continue to have public disorder problems that go with ejecting drunken hoards onto the streets at the same time every night.

We certainly don't know but like many things in Government (and especially with regard to running a bus service) these things tend not to be thought through in a manner that focusses on the customer first.

However, given that Finnegans is the only private service operating it is a fair assessment to say that there is little interest in it.

Terrontress

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The population of sydney is great then all of Ireland so not exactly a far (sic) comparison.

Exactly, so your question regarding island nations with 24 hour public transport is irrelevant.

JHMEG

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Point is still the same, I presume you knew you would be out late and had a chance to figure out a way to get home but didn't bother checking the DB website.

Wrong yet again. Are you doing this deliberately? As my original post I had intended on getting the regular bus home as I always (try to) do.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

However, given that Finnegans is the only private service operating it is a fair assessment to say that there is little interest in it.

I agree with most of what you are saying except you are making two assumptions:

1. No-one other than Finnegans applied. We don't know who applied and was refused. The real picture might be very different.
2. That as there appears to be little commerical apetite for it that as a public service it would probably fail.

antoinolachtnai

Another issue with this stuff is behaviour. The carry-on at night in Dublin is really sometimes beyond what is reasonable or acceptable. Obviously there is the damage this causes now and again, but there is also disruption to other passengers. This puts people off and discourages them from visiting the city late at night and using the service.

As it happens, on the Swords Express, we are waiting to hear on extending our hours later into the evening as part of overall expansion, in particular to service the O2 when it closes. We've been waiting on this for almost two years now.

parsi

JHMEG wrote: »

We also don't know if anyone applied to the DoT and was refused.

I think if the govenment had a problem with drunken hoards filling up the city centre around the same time on weekend nights they should have reformed the drink laws first, public transport 2nd, and then if there was a need for more taxis address that 3rd.

As serving drink between 2:30am and 10:30am is a no-no, pubs, clubs, eateries etc all have to close and Dublin will never be a 24hr city, and as a country we'll continue to have public disorder problems that go with ejecting drunken hoards onto the streets at the same time every night.

The closing time was extended out in order to reduce the sudden exflux of folks from drinking establishments but unfortunately we seem to be a nation of drinkers (or at least a certain demographic of city-cente visitors) who can't leave a place unless it has well and truly stopped serving.

JHMEG

parsi wrote: »

The closing time was extended out in order to reduce the sudden exflux of folks from drinking establishments but unfortunately we seem to be a nation of drinkers (or at least a certain demographic of city-cente visitors) who can't leave a place unless it has well and truly stopped serving.

The Brits used say the same. I believe it's vested interests are telling us we can't behave ourselves, the same ones that forced McDowell's infamous U-turn.

A 1 hour extension to closing times on 2 nights of the week isn't much of a change and it's not going to prove that we can be like our European counterparts and be responsiible. I do believe forced closing times encourages binge drinking. How often do you see people ordering multiple drinks when last orders is called?

Ham'nd'egger

JHMEG wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying except you are making two assumptions:

1. No-one other than Finnegans applied. We don't know who applied and was refused. The real picture might be very different.
2. That as there appears to be little commerical apetite for it that as a public service it would probably fail.

At the time NiteLink started, Finnegans was one of several private operators who gained a licence to operate a late night bus service alongside Dublin Bus. Finnegans is the only private carrier left providing this service, the others having dropped out within weeks of beginning their services.

JHMEG

Hamndegger wrote: »

At the time NiteLink started, Finnegans was one of several private operators who gained a licence to operate a late night bus service alongside Dublin Bus. Finnegans is the only private carrier left providing this service, the others having dropped out within weeks of beginning their services.

KC61 didn't mention this, and I never heard this before. Do you have any links to newspaper articles or DoT bulletins etc?

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

KC61 didn't mention this, and I never heard this before. Do you have any links to newspaper articles or DoT bulletins etc?

Ham'nd'egger is quite correct.

PAMBO members operated services to Bray, Johnstown (via Templeogue and Tallaght), Rathcoole (via Dolphin's Barn), Maynooth, Clonee, Ashbourne, Swords, Ballymun, Malahide and Howth back in Christmas 1991 (the list is from the Irish Times Archive).

The other private operators lasted the initial Christmas period in 1991 and then vanished in 1992 leaving only Dublin Bus and Finnegans.

There have been no other service providers since then to the best of my knowledge in Dublin.

Victor

After the office Christmas party in 1991, I went to get the Malahide Bus, that just didn't show up. the Swords bus did show up, but had no passengers. So the bus driver was practical and took the 3 of us to Malahide.

I imagien the reason Finnegans did so well was because Bray was outside the Dubin Taximeter area, therefore off meter and taxi drivers were well know for price gouging passengers to Bray. So much so that an unofficial rank formed on the Dublin / Wicklow border.

parsi

JHMEG wrote: »

The Brits used say the same. I believe it's vested interests are telling us we can't behave ourselves, the same ones that forced McDowell's infamous U-turn.

A 1 hour extension to closing times on 2 nights of the week isn't much of a change and it's not going to prove that we can be like our European counterparts and be responsiible. I do believe forced closing times encourages binge drinking. How often do you see people ordering multiple drinks when last orders is called?

I don't think its all down to vested interests.

It does break down into an age thing - us older folks are more likely to stay home in the burbs and leave the local before closing whilst the young ones are more likely to crave the excitement of town and order a few additional rounds at closing.

However - closing times do exist in other places but yet folk seem to be more controlled. When I worked in Germany it was usually us Paddies and a Belgian buddy who were last out of the pub. The locals had gone home long before.

There is a culture of drink here. We used go to the Post Office canteen in Berlin and were shocked to find that there was draft beer on sale at lunchtime - can you imagine that happening or lasting in an Irish canteen ? No-one woud go back to work.

The question is whether or not we should be having a radial system of night buses _purely_ to shift drunk folk from town home to their beds and of course is there is such pentup demand how come the privates haven't hoovered it up ?

antoinolachtnai

The obvious solution to this problem would be a system of shared taxis. Does anybody think this would be a flyer?

Terrontress

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The obvious solution to this problem would be a system of shared taxis. Does anybody think this would be a flyer?

no, the taxi drivers won't go for it because it will quarter their customer base. I think there is a need for a publicly provided solution rather than taxis.

Sure, it might reduce the business of taxi drivers but they will just move on to the next easy buck once the work is not there.

antoinolachtnai

I think it would make the use of a taxi more affordable and so open taxi use to a bigger audience.

The taxi driver can also make good money off it - say if it was a five euros per person for a shared taxi inside the M50, 8-10 euros outside it, with service to prescribed stops.

No taxi driver would be forced to participate. But if he has a six-seater taxi, he might be very inclined to!

Ham'nd'egger

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The obvious solution to this problem would be a system of shared taxis. Does anybody think this would be a flyer?

Shared trips with strangers on a casual or ad hoc basis has one massive flaw; it being that the passengers don't know each other so arguments can ensue about who pays what and how much; take it from me it can be messy. It does however works in Belfast very well and other places worldwide.

KC61

Terrontress wrote: »

no, the taxi drivers won't go for it because it will quarter their customer base. I think there is a need for a publicly provided solution rather than taxis.

Sure, it might reduce the business of taxi drivers but they will just move on to the next easy buck once the work is not there.

And where is the money to fund this going to come from?

Dublin Bus services have been cut back already and Bus Eireann services are going to be cut back in coming months, and the financial support from the state is being cut back. I cannot see any government proposing fundinng increased night bus services while the core daytime products are being cut back.

Some reality is needed here - we are in a recession and frankly developing night bus services is probably at the end of the list in terms of possible state funding.

antoinolachtnai

Hamndegger wrote: »

Shared trips with strangers on a casual or ad hoc basis has one massive flaw; it being that the passengers don't know each other so arguments can ensue about who pays what and how much; take it from me it can be messy. It does however works in Belfast very well and other places worldwide.

You'd need to be very mindlessly drunk to intrude on the peace whilst travelling in a Belfast taxi, that's for sure.

You'd have to do some sort of flat fare per passenger - 5 euros inside the M50, 7-10 outside, only dropping off at specific places.

Was there some sort of trial scheme ten years ago?

parsi

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The obvious solution to this problem would be a system of shared taxis. Does anybody think this would be a flyer?

Not a bad idea. It would certainly be flexible in that there wouldn't need to be any additional investment or need to contract vehicles for minimum terms.

Local bases often do the whole sharing thing so its not totally a bolt from the blue.

Ham'nd'egger

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You'd need to be very mindlessly drunk to intrude on the peace whilst travelling in a Belfast taxi, that's for sure.

You'd have to do some sort of flat fare per passenger - 5 euros inside the M50, 7-10 outside, only dropping off at specific places.

Was there some sort of trial scheme ten years ago?

It was done before but I don't know how well it worked; I can but assume the fact that it didn't last may well infer it's lack of success.

One other thing in the way of this being taken on is once again the Regulators Office, this time the ointment fly being the legal obligation for a taxi to hand out a printed receipt. Taxi receipts are based on what is on the meter and not a pre determined amount so to be legit we'd either need pre set fares (illegal unless a waiver is signed), adapted meters to print, hackneys only working such a scheme or a specific class of vehicle for such a service (a larger vehicle which do cost more to buy and run, another driver risk).

Or the Regulator could change the rules for the benefit of driver and passenger alike:rolleyes:

steph1

And what taxi driver wants to be bothered with 'waivers' more paperwork. Thats the reason the printed receipt and meter is there. God k nows drivers paid enough money to have the new fares put on and resealed and recalibrated.
If a driver wants to give discount cant he or she print the receipt from the meter and then deduct it on the receipt and hand it to the punter. When you are out on a busy night the last thing a driver needs is this business of signing off on waiver forms. The only people that I meet that want receipts are those in the town on business and who are staying in hotels or those who are on business for their employers and need a receipt. Where I operate in rural Ireland the people dont want receipts - some of them even throw them back at me.
Just in response to the original posters comments about expensive taxis if you feel that way you should get on to the regulator's office and make a complaint. One of the worst mistakes the regulator made was the last fare increase which was at the wrong time last November and I think it is fair to say it has been one of the main reasons for the downturn in the taxi business along of course with a lot of others e.g unemployment, people just not going out during the week, random breath testing on the way to work the next morning.

Tusky

I made a thread about this last year when they cancelled midweek nitelinks. Its a joke that a capital European city such as Dublin has no public transport Sunday-Thursday after 11:30pm. Some cinema showings dont end until 11:30-11:45, so its possible to come out of the cinema and then have to get a taxi home, which is fine if you live around the center of the city, but v.awkward if you live further afield. A taxi home for me is 25 euro, so I basically have a midweek curfew of 11:30. When compared to other similiar sized cities around Europe (Glasgow and Edinburgh for example) Dublins mid week late night transport is an embarrassment.

shltter

Tusky wrote: »

I made a thread about this last year when they cancelled midweek nitelinks. Its a joke that a capital European city such as Dublin has no public transport Sunday-Thursday after 11:30pm. Some cinema showings dont end until 11:30-11:45, so its possible to come out of the cinema and then have to get a taxi home, which is fine if you live around the center of the city, but v.awkward if you live further afield. A taxi home for me is 25 euro, so I basically have a midweek curfew of 11:30. When compared to other similiar sized cities around Europe (Glasgow and Edinburgh for example) Dublins mid week late night transport is an embarrassment.

And the fact that the issue only comes up at Christmas suggest that there is not the demand to make the service commercially viable throughout the year.

Tusky

shltter wrote: »

And the fact that the issue only comes up at Christmas suggest that there is not the demand to make the service commercially viable throughout the year.

The counter argument to that is that public transport should not exist purely to be commercially viable. It is a public service, and it is in the interest of the public to be able to get home from the city at night time. I know my route wasnt empty when it ran midweek. It wasnt packed but there were certainly enough passengers for it to be worthwhile.

shltter

Tusky wrote: »

The counter argument to that is that public transport should not exist purely to be commercially viable. It is a public service, and it is in the interest of the public to be able to get home from the city at night time. I know my route wasnt empty when it ran midweek. It wasnt packed but there were certainly enough passengers for it to be worthwhile.

I agree with you 100% but unfortunately the people who control the purse strings want a commercially viable operation.

JHMEG

Tusky wrote: »

similiar sized cities around Europe (Glasgow and Edinburgh for example) Dublins mid week late night transport is an embarrassment.

Interesting comparison.

Dublin, popultion 1.6 million (metro): Limited Night bus service 2 nights a week. None follow daytime routes.
Edinburgh, population 1.1 million (metro): Extensive night bus service. All follow the daytime routes and pickups. Some routes operate 7 nights a week.
Glasgow, population 2.2 million (metro): Night transport options are too numerous to list, consisting of several bus operators and trains.

Tusky

JHMEG wrote: »

Interesting comparison.

Dublin, popultion 1.6 million (metro): Limited Night bus service 2 nights a week. None follow daytime routes.
Edinburgh, population 1.1 million (metro): Extensive night bus service. All follow the daytime routes and pickups. Some routes operate 7 nights a week.
Glasgow, population 2.2 million (metro): Night transport options are too numerous to list, consisting of several bus operators and trains.

Yeah - I wrote an article about it at the time (when midweek nightlinks were cancelled) comparing Dublins night time public transport with similiar sized cities around Europe. It made me want to emigrate to be honest. One of the key points I made in it was about people working in bars and restaurants in the city, who are very likely to be working past 11:30. They could potentially be dishing out 20% of their evenings earnings just to get home after work.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

Interesting comparison.

Dublin, popultion 1.6 million (metro): Limited Night bus service 2 nights a week. None follow daytime routes.
Edinburgh, population 1.1 million (metro): Extensive night bus service. All follow the daytime routes and pickups. Some routes operate 7 nights a week.
Glasgow, population 2.2 million (metro): Night transport options are too numerous to list, consisting of several bus operators and trains.

Brighton & Hove, population 250,000; two 24 hour routes (higher fares / surcharge on pre-paid tickets at night), 4 night bus routes on thursday/friday/saturday. Some night bus routes serve outlying towns that'd be BE Nightrider rather than DB Nightlink in Dublin.

Its probably fair to compare this with Cork, not Dublin, but Ireland would come out even less favourably!

Chucky the tree

Terrontress wrote: »

Exactly, so your question regarding island nations with 24 hour public transport is irrelevant.

No it's not.

JHMEG wrote: »

Wrong yet again. Are you doing this deliberately? As my original post I had intended on getting the regular bus home as I always (try to) do.

Should have left the pub on time then if you had no clue how to get home after the last bus.

antoinolachtnai

Nightlinks aren't commercially viable, they're a public service obligation operation, the same as all the other dublin bus routes except the tour buses.

bangersandmash

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You'd have to do some sort of flat fare per passenger - 5 euros inside the M50, 7-10 outside, only dropping off at specific places.

Was there some sort of trial scheme ten years ago?

There was a trial in Christmas 1999. It wasn't a huge success.

My own experiences weren't exactly great at the time. First occasion the driver aggressively insisted on charging both of us the entire fee for the full journey. On another occasion one of the other passengers refused to pay, unpleasant drunken argument ensued. So that Christmas I frequently walked home like many people at the time.

It's the kind of scheme that works well in other countries, but seems incapable of being implemented in Ireland for cultural reasons.

eth0_

bangersandmash wrote: »

It's the kind of scheme that works well in other countries, but seems incapable of being implemented in Ireland for cultural reasons.

Exactly. I've taken night buses in Edinburgh and London without incident, but i'd never take the nightlink in Dublin, I just don't feel safe. It's sad.

patrickmooney

I remember years back when DB ran nitelinks over Christmas for €2. They were packed. I feel I'm under a curfew in this city. I take the Dart, last train is 11:35pm (11:55pm on a Sunday for some reason). I work in town, I socialise in town, but live in the suburbs. Often I'd miss the last Dart and wait around for the first or second nitelink home. I've always had the annual bus/rail pass. I can't afford a €25 taxi ride every other night, so I've often had to stay in town with mates or walk half the way home! So I'm finding myself having to time watch and make sure I get out of the city by 11:30 every night in order to make it home via the Public Transport which I pay in advance for. It's no wonder the city is closing and isn't evolving into a 24hour capital when we don't have transport OR licenses for venues to remain open (another topic I know).

AlekSmart

Dublin, popultion 1.6 million (metro): Limited Night bus service 2 nights a week. None follow daytime routes.
Edinburgh, population 1.1 million (metro): Extensive night bus service. All follow the daytime routes and pickups. Some routes operate 7 nights a week.
Glasgow, population 2.2 million (metro): Night transport options are too numerous to list, consisting of several bus operators and trains.

Of the three above,Edinburgh is by far the one WE need to be looking to for a model,as it is a PUBLICLY owned operation (For Now)

Lothian Buses,the operator,has consistently been at the top of the UK public transport list as regards quality and quantity of services.

This question is not about Public vs Private but rather about what regard our leaders have for their electorate,which currently appears to be Zilch!

Spook_ie

patrickmooney wrote: »

I remember years back when DB ran nitelinks over Christmas for €2. They were packed. I feel I'm under a curfew in this city. I take the Dart, last train is 11:35pm (11:55pm on a Sunday for some reason). I work in town, I socialise in town, but live in the suburbs. Often I'd miss the last Dart and wait around for the first or second nitelink home. I've always had the annual bus/rail pass. I can't afford a €25 taxi ride every other night, so I've often had to stay in town with mates or walk half the way home! So I'm finding myself having to time watch and make sure I get out of the city by 11:30 every night in order to make it home via the Public Transport which I pay in advance for. It's no wonder the city is closing and isn't evolving into a 24hour capital when we don't have transport OR licenses for venues to remain open (another topic I know).

Ah but isn't it worth it when you have to get up and go to work again the next morning, thankyou DB for getting these people to go home early and get some rest before working the next day..

dublin 16 lad

It can be a pain getting out of Dublin city centre alright but it's simply not economical for any company to provide the service

In fairness if you're with 2 or 3 friends a taxi is almost as cheap as a nightlink would be anyway

Tis a real pain if you get stuck by yourself tho