News Years Eve Melee

FX Meister

Posted about this earlier but it got deleted. Possibly because I mentioned who the photographer was and cause he posts here. Thankfully the promoters are looking into it and a similar incident won't happen again. The photograpers mate even went as far as to punch another girl in the face leaving her with a black eye after three of them ganged up on her. I was there when it all happened and was sickened by their behaviour. A thread on thumped was also started about it which I've copied below. http://thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=77688

I hate to start the year on a negative note, but there is something occurring at gigs involving photographers that i feel sorely needs to be addressed.

i have returned from a gig tonight that i feel was completely ruined by a photographer. this is the 3rd gig in a month that has been ruined or soured by a photographer. now, i know that recently this was brought up with a particular mention to U:M gigs and i actually saw a positive change following this.

however, there is still something severely wrong with the protocol and actions of photographers at gigs.

Of the 3 gigs i am referencing i can name 2 of the photographers but i will not do so. i can however say that these gigs all took place in whelans.

some of the common behavior i have observed has been:

1- intrusive positioning of photographer in front of the stage
2- extremely invasive camera positioning and distracting use of flash photography.
3-aggression and arrogance being used to obtain a position in front of the stage
4- refusing to move when requested by punter or performer.
5- interference with the performers themselves.
6- complete disregard for the other punters enjoyment of a gig.
7- staying in this position for the entire gig.

tonight was in many ways the last straw. i do not wish to get into details about the events, but what i saw tonight was genuinely shocking. i felt, as do many of those unfortunate enough to be positioned behind the photographer in question, that a potentially amazing night was completely ruined by one person's obnoxious and selfish actions. and of course, this being more than just a regular night(NYE), it really feels like a great loss. this went so far as to actually interfere with the performers themselves causing them to actually stop playing a song and address the situation. i was also very forcefully pushed aside at one point during the gig by the photographer. this person also refused the requests of punters, bouncer and indeed band personnel to move and stop.


so, as nothing more than a music fan who enjoys going to gigs, i simply plea to you the promoters, punters and photographers to change this. something is seriously wrong when peoples enjoyment of a show is ruined by the actions of one person.

it could be solved easily by introducing the 3 song rule at ALL gigs. this means you get 3 songs/10 mins and you have to leave. this is the protocol in most bigger venues. i know its harder to police in smaller venues like whelans as there isnt security at the front of the stage, but it should almost be an unwritten rule.

i also believe it should be at the discretion of the band. maybe they dont want photography at all.

i do fully respect the rights of photographers and know that most of them have respect for what they are doing, the band and the people around them. but what i have been seeing just goes beyond basic human decency and respect.

CabanSail

The previous post is under discussion. As you have PM's turned off it has not been possible to discuss the matter with you.

PCPhoto

Firstly - I have read the previous thread on this and did think you went overboard and it felt like you were ranting rather than looking for advice or help.

now....can I ask a stupid question (or two) ?

Do you know if the photographer was being paid to take photos of the band ?

Was the photographer in front of you for the entire gig ?

I've photographed some of the smaller venues that you have mentioned and to be honest in order to get a decent pic in some of the places flash may be required ..... lighting conditions are really crap.

you mentioned previously that the photographer was put on the guest list by the drummer - do you know this for a fact ? if so, maybe the drummer had a deal with him to cover the gig.

I know that whenever I cover these gigs I usually end out being allowed to photograph first 2-3songs (no flash) ..... or maybe 2-3 songs in the pit and then take pics from anywhere.

I can understand your frustration and I have had a number of complaints by people when I'm taking pics at some small gigs, and I sometimes have appeared arrogant and rude to them (but I assured them that I was not going to be there for the entire gig - just first bit - get my pics and I'm out)

I've had pr1cks pushing me while I'm working and I have given them a serious tongue lashing and mentioned it to security so if they did it again - he would chuck them out.

if the photographer in this situation was there all night I would say - bad form, .....if he wasnt then, he may have messed up you seeing the band for a couple of songs....that doesnt mean your whole night was ruined.

I did go ape on a guy one time and he eventually didnt respond when I shouted that you are here to listen to the frickin' music so shut up, let me do my job and you can listen to your frickin band...so frock if you cant see them.....for a little while, the quicker I can do my job the quicker I can get the frock out of there and wont be in his face and if he continued his whining I would have to stay there for the entire gig.....he was one of these bandwagon fans... who buys the tshirts, CDs, hat and any other merchandise...but doesnt know the lyrics and thinks he knows more about the band than everyone else.

Anyways....sorry for little mini rant.

PCPhoto

1- intrusive positioning of photographer in front of the stage
2- extremely invasive camera positioning and distracting use of flash photography.
3-aggression and arrogance being used to obtain a position in front of the stage
4- refusing to move when requested by punter or performer.
5- interference with the performers themselves.
6- complete disregard for the other punters enjoyment of a gig.
7- staying in this position for the entire gig.


if I can address these:
1 ..... usually in front of the stage is where the photographer has to work and doesnt have a choice.... where would you prefer the photographer to take his pics from....the back of the crowd....with heads/hands jumping around in front of the best possible picture.

2 ..... sometimes the lighting in venues can be disgraceful.... and some flash may be required, generally there is no flash allowed and most photographers prefer to work without to get a decent atmosphere picture, most photographers wont use multiple bursts of flash...just a random one here and there.

3 ..... aggression and arrogence being used by a photographer.... well I never !!! ..... to be fair, if the photographer was working he/she would have been brought to the front of the stage....are you trying to say that someone holding a camera asked you or just walked through you before holding position in front of the stage...... sounds a bit more like your own fault - if he didnt have a camera would you have let him pass ?

4 ..... refusing to move when requested by punter or performer.....well.... if he's a photographer working.... then not really his problem if a punter is stuck behind him, its very bad for a photographer to be in the same position for a gig as all his/her shots will be the same/similar.
4B ....performer......I have never seen a photographer refuse to move for a performer, I would like to ask what did the performer do next ..... if the photographer didnt move did the performer just continue like nothing had happened .....doesnt sound like the performer was too bothered by the photographer in this case.

5... interference with the performers themselves..... this I find strange , can you explain this a bit more....did he (ahem) ...touch them inappropriately ? .... did he play with their instruments ?

6 ....complete disregard for the other punters enjoyment of a gig....well.... if he's working then he isnt a punter so doesnt care about everyones enjoyment and is only concerned with doing his job and getting good pics.

7..... staying in this position for the entire gig..... this could have been purely to wind you up !! ...or he/she is fairly limited in their knowledge/ability to cover a gig......speaking from my own experiences - a photographer should try to get several different pics during a gig - including an overall crowd scene and any memorable moments on stage....of course the photographer could have had a mandate to photograph one person and stayed in that position to get pics of that one person as they get sweatier and sweatier while performing.

(again - sorry for the lost reply)

pixbyjohn

PCPhoto wrote: »

Firstly - I have read the previous thread on this and did think you went overboard and it felt like you were ranting rather than looking for advice or help.


Anyways....sorry for little mini rant.

Was it you ?

Fajitas!

Are you *suuuuuuuure* that there wouldn't be another side to this rant?

CabanSail

The other post was removed while being discussed, it probably will not return as it could have been considered a personal attack.

This thread has been posted in a more constructive manner & will remain while the discussion stays that way. The various aspects on how Photographers should conduct themselves in these situations & the problems that arise are subjects which should be discussed. However sniping at individuals or abuse will not be tolerated, and if they do occur then sanctions will be handed out.

Basically a frank and robust exchange of views is fine but play nice.

pete4130

I am the photographer in question and have had no internet apart from blackberry to respond. Of course everyone has there own side to this story and I have my own. I was accused on the night of punching someone which is totally untrue. I have my own version of events as does everyone else. I personally had a camera stolen from my pocket on the night and 2 pints poured over my back and one over my girlfriend. My girlfriend also has her version of what happened (and a bruised nose and forehead to prove it before she reciprocated.)

I will admit on the night tensions were running high with everyone. I've looked through the 120 odd shots I took over 45 mins and a total of maybe 13 are intrusive on the band (spanning maybe 8 seconds of that time, which is about 0.3% of the entire time I was shooting photos) as they were shot on continuous burst mode (which seemed to annoy some people).

I whole heartedly apologise for saying any offending words\comments to anyone or there partners and openly admit to it. It was a heat of the moment thing and was shameful and wrong on my behalf. I accept that.
I do have photos of the band dating back to 2004 and have in the past had the band store some of their kit in my house as well as having one of their support bands stay with me for a week several years ago.

Once I do have internet again I will post unedited jpegs with the edif data available of my images from the night for people to make their own decisions on whether my shots were overly intrusive for the crowd. I did have earplugs in (as most photogs would) and genuinely didn't hear being asked to stop shooting as it was causing trouble.
I know there was some naming and shaming going on with thumped.ie and I'm ok if people want to call me out on it. My images can be seen on flickr under my username of pete4130 and anyone can contact me directly. My photos and time stamps will show I was there to take photos. I. Made sure to get there early to get a position at the stage and only moved when I was asked outside by a doorman to explain what had happened. He looked at my timestamps for photos and allowed me back in happy I hadn't had hit anyone.
I'm sorry it's a crime to like a band, get there early, take some photos, get abused for it, have some randomer (apparantly from hot press) wade in and cause a seperate incident, throw 2 pints over people, punch someone in the face twice and not expect a reaction and play innocent to security. I know it isn't the right thing to do but it happens\happened.

Once I have internet back I will post all my unedited photos for people to make up their own minds.

One thing I did find ironic on thumped.ie was that below the thread was one of my gig photos promoting an Irish bands single on the same page I was being given so much abuse for. For me it says more about my past\history with local dublin bands than most people ranting.

There are 2 sides to each story, probably 3 or 4 to this one so it's not clear cut and never will be. Nobody is as innocent as they make out to be. Some people were being antagonistic towards others. I hold my hands up and openly admit to the part my actions played in the drama that not any one person was responsible for.

I've been taking gig shots for years and have NEVER received the hostility I did on NYE. It is swings and roundabouts. If I was asked rather than told I couldn't take photos I'm sure I would have responded differently. Things happened as they happened on the night and people should accept their own actions (I've already admitted and tried to apologise for my poor decisions) and can't be held accountable for things happening behind me when my eye is looking through my camera, which is as you know like tunnel vision at times.

If anyone has any concerns or anguish with me they can contact me directly @ peterconwayphotography@gmail.com or they can choose to be an internet forum wizard and post back here.

TelePaul

So you didn't hit anyone? If that genuinely is the case, end of thread IMO.

Personally, I havn't been to a single gig where someone (photographer or nay) hasn't muscled in, pushed past me, stood in front of me, relieved themselves near me, vomited near me (that sucked), started a fight near me or jumped on me. Most of this is par for the course when ti comes to live music, and any truly raucous behaviour is sorted out by event security. Sounds like stewards/bouncers/staff weren't doing their job (not a dig at them, must be a tough gig).

TelePaul

Also, I find it hilarious that a fracas is being discussed on a site named 'thumped'

mrboswell

Regardless of the situation in question, when promoter/staff/bouncer ask you/told to do something (whether or not photographing or carrying out any other behavior whether it was done so in an aggressive manner or not) it is usually sensible to do so an try to reason with the authority later.

If you are told to stop photographing in a private area you do not retain the right to photograph what you want which is why promoters try to control who the allow to photography.

To be honest whether you were asked or told doesn't really matter - you should have done as directed.

Barname

whats this thumped.ie ?

is that code for something else?

www.thumped.ie ? I cant get nuthin

and, in the immortal words of Rodney King....

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out

FX Meister

I'm glad the photographer in question has owned up. I still feel he and his mates were a bit too aggressive. I've also seen pictures of the girl who got hit in the face today and it looks pretty bad. I'm also pretty quick to say she has wrecked my head at a number of gigs but didn't deserve what happened. But from a number of people I spoke to tonight who saw it clearly, the black eye came from a plastic cup from the photographer and I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to hit her with it. I did see him pick the cup up from the stage and throw it in the girls face after the other three had already emptied their cups. I spoke to him a bit at the time, he was abusive to me about my mate, and he did talk up about how much he knew the band. I said nothing at the time but I know all the guys pretty well, they all weren't happy about how the photographer behaved. If my pm's are turned off then it's something to do with an issue with adverts.ie but if anyone wants to contact me then email me on stevemerchant@gmail.com

And to reply to PCPhoto, the performers did ask him to stop.

magicbastarder

PCPhoto wrote: »

4 ..... refusing to move when requested by punter or performer.....well.... if he's a photographer working.... then not really his problem if a punter is stuck behind him, its very bad for a photographer to be in the same position for a gig as all his/her shots will be the same/similar.

6 ....complete disregard for the other punters enjoyment of a gig....well.... if he's working then he isnt a punter so doesnt care about everyones enjoyment and is only concerned with doing his job and getting good pics.

he's not a paying punter, therefore he doesn't have the right to impinge unduly on other peoples' enjoyment of the gig.

pete

Barname wrote: »

whats this thumped.ie ?

is that code for something else?

www.thumped.ie ? I cant get nuthin

http://thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=77688

moonboy

wow, i cant believe you are actually basically defending/ignoring your actions. have to email you.

penexpers

I think there's a growing frustration with photographers at gigs, especially at the smaller venues. It's not a problem at the bigger venues (read: Olympia, Academy etc..) because there's well defined rules (3 songs). I think the smaller venues (in conjuction with the promoters) need to figure out a set of similar rules. I've had gigs in Whelans partially ruined by some photographers (both amateur and pro) getting in my way to take their prized photos.

After all, a gig can happen without photographers, but it can't really happen without punters.

Dragan

Look, i hate to break hearts but the majority of gig photographers will act a bit wankerish during the course of the gig in order to get their shots.

It's just what gig photographers do. As someone who has spent the last 12 years either going to or doing security at gigs and concerts it's just something i have noticed.

Now before anyone gets upset, i have no doubt that all these folk are beautiful and wonderous people...but i would have to put down at least 70% of the gig photographers I have actually witnessed working as being total assholes.

Why?

1) Most of them have been at it for a while, and despite the love of the click, and maybe even the music, they hate the crowd.
2) This bringing friends with you ****.....your friends don't need to stand around you like a gaggle of spare cocks while you do you thing, THEY are just punters, if they lose stage space because of the ruck then **** em. I'm tired to my back teeth of photographers + group of tool bags acting like a bunch of girls going to bathroom and them all moving with him....if you want to be unobtrusive, just split up from your mates.
3) An air of expectancy - you are there to take photos? Big whoop, i'm here to work or party, work around me.

Thats about it really, in my experience.

PCPhoto

FX Meister wrote: »

And to reply to PCPhoto, the performers did ask him to stop.

surely if the performers asked the photographer to stop she/he would have had the decency to do so.

if I was on stage and a photographer was asked to stop I would have told band members to stop until the photographer was escorted out....if the performers cant perform then there is no gig.

The photographer should have the common sense to get his/her pics and stop (I've seen plenty of people with DSLRs who think all they have to do is point and take loads of pics and they will get one that they like....I have taken ...and missed pics cos I didnt keep my finger on the button)

moonboy

PCPhoto wrote: »

surely if the performers asked the photographer to stop she/he would have had the decency to do so.

if I was on stage and a photographer was asked to stop I would have told band members to stop until the photographer was escorted out....if the performers cant perform then there is no gig.

The photographer should have the common sense to get his/her pics and stop (I've seen plenty of people with DSLRs who think all they have to do is point and take loads of pics and they will get one that they like....I have taken ...and missed pics cos I didnt keep my finger on the button)

you have hit it on the head here.

Massive Muscles

Why do people use flash photography at a gig? That is a straight up no and will definitely piss off a performer.

magicbastarder

penexpers wrote: »

I think there's a growing frustration with photographers at gigs, especially at the smaller venues.

yep, i brought the camera along to a gig at the academy 2 a while back, and only took about 20% of the photos i'd expected to - there were about seven people there with cameras, and i stopped taking photos because i didn't want to be associated with the numerous people standing in front of the stage taking photos; the stage is at the same level as the crowd, so you really are in the way of the paying punters.

TelePaul

Massive Muscles wrote: »

Why do people use flash photography at a gig? That is a straight up no and will definitely piss off a performer.

Not necessarily. I was at a Mark Knopfler gig in the RDS (not even the main hall) and he didn't mind any type of still photography. Hated movie recordings of his performances, but photos were encouraged.

TelePaul

FX Meister wrote: »

I've also seen pictures of the girl who got hit in the face today and it looks pretty bad. But from a number of people I spoke to tonight who saw it clearly, the black eye came from a plastic cup

A plastic cup causing a black eye? I call bull****.

RGDATA!

PCPhoto wrote: »

if I can address these:
1 ..... usually in front of the stage is where the photographer has to work and doesnt have a choice.... where would you prefer the photographer to take his pics from....the back of the crowd....with heads/hands jumping around in front of the best possible picture.

honest answer - i couldn't really give a toss whether there are photos taken of a show i'm at which i may or may not ever see at some point, just that a photographer doesn't plonk himself of the way and spoil peoples' buzz. i don't find gig photography particularly interesting or useful.

sineadw

Massive Muscles wrote: »

Why do people use flash photography at a gig? That is a straight up no and will definitely piss off a performer.

Never been an issue with me. If you use it properly it doesn't have to piss anyone off. And of course you should move about, but in places like Whelans that's not always possible. Personally I won't shoot there anymore unless its a very small gig - the management let too many people in IMHO and there's too much potential for disaster. And I've never seen a pit there. Its all too easy to call shenanigans on doing certain things at gigs but at the time it's never usually that simple. Don't be an asshole (Pete I don't mean you I have no idea what happened) and usually everyone's very happy with the results.

I've been on both sides of this - was attacked by another photographer at a gig one night in the Boom Boom. God but she was an idiot. I've also had a punter punch me in the back repeatedly when I was shooting for a band in Paris, because I had squeezed past her and was shooting in front of her for about 30 seconds before FINALLY getting access to the pit. I even had one drunken fool fall on top of me and send me flying, coming damn close to breaking the 50 1.4 in the process. You get idiots everywhere in life (again Pete - not you).

Jemmy

Right I personally think this is becoming too personal against the photographer in question. If you have that much of a problem take it up with him off the forum imo but I'm no mod. It started as a discussion on photographer in general at gigs after this 'incident' now its back to this sh*te!

Posting photos is a step too far, and I dont believe for a second that happened by a plastic cup.


Just my 2c!

TelePaul

Jemmy wrote: »

Right I personally think this is becoming too personal against the photographer in question. If you have that much of a problem take it up with him off the forum imo but I'm no mod. It started as a discussion on photographer in general at gigs after this 'incident' now its back to this sh*te!

Posting photos is a step too far, and I dont believe for a second that happened by a plastic cup.


Just my 2c!

Agreed, discussing the merits and relevance of photographers at gigs is well and good but this has become something more personal. That photo screams 'sensationalist', and boards.ie is not the Daily Mirror.

Calina

Okay.

I've had my fill of this saga. I'm locking the thread on the grounds that it can be summarised as "people should have some respect" and "sometimes people don't".

Posts are going to disappear for various charter related reasons. I'm not handing out bans or infractions but it would be nice if people could sort out their differences elsewhere than here.

TelePaul

IBTL!

Fajitas!

Thread is a load of rabble rousing BS tbh.